Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ??

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:42 pm

Hei Trond, Chris did say "A" I'm just waiting for the "B"

Well, we will see tomorrow. You seem to know something about this Trond? I admit I don't have a clue.

Leif

(tusen takk Trond.........venter spent)

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:39 am

Trond makes some very good observations. If I say that 'X' and 'Y' are the key factors, I'll be shot down, and probably rightly so.
The rim is not just about comfort, and the transition from cup to bore is a very sensitive area, as is the length of bore and shape of backbore. Bach himself gave some important information in his earlier mouthpiece manuals.
For all the research, no two mouthpieces play the same and people like Minick knew this and gave customers the choice of a number of examples if they visited him.
Chris Stearn

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:53 am

Ok, so I have found that the inner rim,and the entrance to the cup is important..

That does not make me a good mouthpiece maker..

I suspect that You have got to be able to log a lot of hours by the turning bench and(maybe more important); ...have destroyed a lot of pieces to really get the right "feeling" for when You have a winner.. If it was all about quantifiable sizes like millimeters, cup depths and reamer sizes, it would be easy, but when you are dealing whith such complicated curves like this You probably have to discard a lot of theory in place of the unique feeling for the material which every good craftsman has.. Maybe it`s all in the wrist ?

Leif; i hope you receive the MV today or tomorrow... Please let us all know how it works!!

Trond

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:56 am

I got it

I got it!!!! My MT Vernon Bach 1 1/2g was in the mail today! Thanks to the Norwegian Mail I want to kiss you.
I admit I'm a bit shaky now and have just played it for 10 min. But this is the real thing guys. How could you let it go Trond? But to late for you.

Anyway thanks so very much..

I was prepared to have some difficulties to play it but it was just "bang" from first attack. No warm up before today but the first attack, sound and even the end of sound was there as easy as in heaven. The lower register: They just locked in every note from start to end. The sound is really big, wide but with the "Bach" edge to it. What surprise me is how easy it was to play. I was prepared for some problems but no. Much more safer than my another old Bach mouthpiece. It makes me believe the one I had is not so good after all. I always liked the sound but it was some uneven I think. The MT Vernon is safer over the hole register. It plays loader and softer. The legato locks into every note. The staccato is even on every note.

I can already make one statement: This is the real thing guys. And it was in gold and do look very nice....well, I have little time have to go and play,play....play..... Backbore, rim or whatever Chris, whatever is the secret in mouthpiece design.........forget it, who cares, this is the real thing and thats the only important part of it.

Leif

ttf_WaltTrombone · Post by **ttf_WaltTrombone** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:53 am

Leif har funnet the Holy Grail, kanskje? Lykke til! Nyt det!

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:09 am

Quote from: WaltTrombone on Mar 06, 2009, 04:53AMLeif har funnet the Holy Grail, kanskje? Lykke til! Nyt det!

Wow, impressing !

... didn`t see that coming !

Norske slektninger eller ?

Leif, keep us posted on the progress !!

...and to everyone who wants to know why i sold it to Leif ; i will come back to it later. Let me just say that it is relative to this topic..

Trond

ttf_WaltTrombone · Post by **ttf_WaltTrombone** » Fri Mar 06, 2009 6:39 am

Quote from: tbarh on Mar 06, 2009, 06:09AMWow, impressing !

... didn`t see that coming !

Norske slektninger eller ?

Nei, jeg bruker Google til å oversette.

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:31 pm

Walt, jeg tror du er norsk

Have I found the Holy Grail? Yes if I can play it like in heaven I have found the Holy Grail. I feel I'm in heaven but don't know if I play like that yet. Well practice, practice........

Leif

ttf_WaltTrombone · Post by **ttf_WaltTrombone** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:35 pm

Etter noen øl, norsk begynner å gjøre mer fornuftig.

Enjoy your new mouthpiece!!!

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:17 pm

Skål Walt, And thanks I will enjoy it

Leif

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:43 am

Quote from: savio on Mar 06, 2009, 02:56AM And it was in gold

So maybe it's just the gold plating that makes the difference?

Bah, just messing with your head Leif

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:09 am

Quote from: poozer on Mar 08, 2009, 05:43AM
So maybe it's just the gold plating that makes the difference?

Bah, just messing with your head Leif

He, he.......oh no Poozer, this is the real thing. And I'm in my right mind for first time in over one year. and will be there as long as I can play. I understand now what Chris was talking about the MT Vernon. Its a different kind of quality. No doubt about that. I understand it now. I thought my another Bach was good but this is in another league. Its not even close. Rim and many other things looks the same but somehow it plays much better. And I did polish it today. Looks very nice and shiny to be so old. If you can get one like this you must just pay whatever you have to guys. It really is made by some who understand mouthpieces and how to put it together. I will take good care of it and my mind is not easy to mess with now Poozer.

Leif

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:35 pm

So Leif is in his right mind and plays a Bach 1 1/2G...

After three years and 49 pages, could the definitive answer to Chris Stearn's can of worms be...

Leif!?!?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:43 am

Poozer and all you other, I believe after 3 years with this tread Im one of the answears to the original question. But I believe there are many more.

I have posted a lot of nonsens in my struggling, but you have all helped me to discover the Bach 1 1/2g. Thanks Chris and all of you. And thanks Trond.

With my last mouthpiece I have piece in my soul and started me thinking of all that has happen. Before this tread I did not have any clue about mouthpieces.

I have been talking some about safety. All the new mouthpieces on the market I have tried have this safety. Not my two old Bachs. Its a question about what sound you like and I prefer the Bach sound. But thats me. Some will have another taste and prefer one of the new designs and their sound. But however, the old Bachs(ca 1970) didn't give me safety. That was the reason for struggling. I did love the sound, but they was uneven and I could never be sure of the relationship between what I put in and what I get out the bell. The new design on the market is more quality then my two old Bach mouthpieces. I see it now. I think even the new Bach mouthpieces are more safe and better quality than my old. And they are more even. So if you prefer the Bach sound you should try some of the new ones. The 1970-90,95...could be good if you find a good one but the new Bach are more consistent and more even. They are better.

So its about taste people. All the new design in the market are good for the right horn and the right lips. I know after trying them all.

But with my MT Vernon I got all I have asked for and more. I got the Bach sound better than I could dream of. What did surprise me is I also got the safety I also searched for. What I put in is coming out. I don't know about other MT Vernon's but mine feels surprisingly even and safe. I don't believe its more easy than others but you know what comes out the bell when you put something in.

So if you like the Bach sound and cant get a MT Vernon try the new Bach. They are more even than mine two old Bachs(ca 1970). If you prefer a slightly different sound go for all the other designs.

I believe many trombone players have got a right mind and a right mouthpiece after this tread. This size have long been neglected because of the bigger and bigger. It shows us the 1 1/2g works in all settings. Pro, amateur or beginner. Orchestra, big band, Concert band whatever. One of the thing Chris is pointing to is you maybe choose wrong if you play a 60 size without the strength of a fulltime pro. Don't make life difficult.

And the George Robert sound? Premru?
Im sure Im not the only "right minded" Poozer

Leif

ttf_The Bone Ranger · Post by **ttf_The Bone Ranger** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:57 am

I have one concern, Leif....

You've been raving about this mouthpiece like it's the best thing that's ever happened to your playing, and it may well be, but in the grand scheme of things, you've had it for a few days. You were also pretty excited about it before it even arrived. I would be a little concerned that there's some placebo effect involved here.

Who knows? In a few months time, you may still be raving about it (and I'll probably be offering to buy it from you!) but I've certainly built up mouthpieces in my mind before they arrived, thought it was the best thing ever once I played it, and once the honeymoon period wore off, discovered it was just another mouthpiece.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just wanting you to stay subjective.

Andrew (who is hoping it's not just another mouthpiece...)

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:56 am

I see what you mean Andrew. In the hole playing aspect the mouthpiece is just a small part of it. But to make a complete "house" this small things are in the end important if you see what I mean?

I have been raving around like you say but my feet are now soon back on the ground. Sorry but I did maybe take some off.

I don't play better or worse. Its still me playing. No miracles but I will maybe practice even more because
I just got what I want.

And I feel comfortable thats a good thing. My daughter cant listen any difference except I'm more noisy the hole day.

So don't worry Andrew, I have experience with how new pieces feel the first weeks. Believe me.....

Leif

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:42 pm

It is kinda funny; The wrong mouthpiece can ruin your playing. The right mouthpiece rarely makes a dramatic change in your playing. Very few even notice the change. Practice makes the horn sound good.

ttf_Tobbe · Post by **ttf_Tobbe** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:45 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Mar 11, 2009, 12:42PMPractice makes the horn sound good.
So very true...

I'm sure you can get similar result of sound with different equipment.
The sound is in your head.
Practising is the road to the goal...

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:26 pm

Hard work and talent are the most important factors in our playing, sure. This mouthpiece thing is a matter of personal satisfaction that some players search for all their lives and others are never bothered with.
For those that are bothered, a New York of Mt Vernon Bach mouthpiece can often be that special grail that comes at the end of years of searching. Many examples are really exceptional mouthpieces, even compared with the best modern versions.
This thread is about a particular size, but also about those early Bach mouthpieces and the magic they hold for some people.
The placebo effect has been mentioned... could well be true... but in a subjective art form, that can be just as valid for a performer... so why worry... if a particular mouthpiece brings deep joy to a player every time they pick up the instrument, then it is money well spent. If we believe that we have the best mouthpiece in the world, then that is exactly what we have, whatever others may think.

Chris Stearn

ttf_Gabe Langfur · Post by **ttf_Gabe Langfur** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 3:26 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Mar 11, 2009, 12:42PMThe right mouthpiece rarely makes a dramatic change in your playing.
Yes and no. The right tools can teach you how to do the job right if you let them. Honestly, switching to the Laskey 93D from the smaller mouthpieces I had been playing previously opened up lots of changes for me that have been tremendously positive. It took more than a year for me to realize what was happening. Maybe that's not a dramatic change in the sense of timeframe, but in the overall effect I think it is.

I'm sure the same thing can happen with the right smaller mouthpiece.

QuotePractice makes the horn sound good.
I've always liked this in your signature - I'm a sucker for as good aphorism. But like all aphorisms, it's a simplification, and reality can often be more complicated. Not always

Practice can also let you know if the horn really is the problem.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 4:10 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Mar 11, 2009, 12:42PMIt is kinda funny; The wrong mouthpiece can ruin your playing. The right mouthpiece rarely makes a dramatic change in your playing. Very few even notice the change. Practice makes the horn sound good.

I agree very much to this statement !....not a big change, but if the mouthpiece makes things easier for you , the "right" sound will emerge from the bell .. I am testing a Laskey 85MD , and i am amazed at how good it is

I beleive the "buzzword" (pun intended) is resonance... If the mouthpiece work with You instead of against you in this respect it can can actually make a big difference..Resonance is the tool for music production, not only loud playing but soft, legato, staccato/attacs and every subtle nuance you can imagine.. more of it and you are better off.. i suppose that much of the secret behind a good 1 1/2G sized piece could be that it has the right mix between "rub"and "woof" which gives subjectively more power of resonance... Too small and it will be to thin, to big and it will be too woofy.. Could it be so easy as this: The mouthpiece that gives you the most perceived decibels for a given amount of air will also be the most efficient and perceivably the best sounding one.. ??

Trond

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:23 am

Quote from: tbarh on Mar 11, 2009, 04:10PMI agree very much to this statement !....not a big change, but if the mouthpiece makes things easier for you , the "right" sound will emerge from the bell .. I am testing a Laskey 85MD , and i am amazed at how good it is

I beleive the "buzzword" (pun intended) is resonance... If the mouthpiece work with You instead of against you in this respect it can can actually make a big difference..Resonance is the tool for music production, not only loud playing but soft, legato, staccato/attacs and every subtle nuance you can imagine.. more of it and you are better off.. i suppose that much of the secret behind a good 1 1/2G sized piece could be that it has the right mix between "rub"and "woof" which gives subjectively more power of resonance... Too small and it will be to thin, to big and it will be too woofy.. Could it be so easy as this: The mouthpiece that gives you the most perceived decibels for a given amount of air will also be the most efficient and perceivably the best sounding one.. ??

Trond
I know I am saying the same thing again (sorry Chris!).
But the right and wrong is a personal issue.
(Yes I also think Laskey 85MD is a great piece for the right person and job)
I heard some woofy:s from 1 ½ G:s (professionals) and some god rub:s from 1 G:s, and bigger to.
What I found funny is the difference in how sizes work on different horns.
My Bach takes a smaller piece than my Kanstull.
Why?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:30 pm

Quote:

"They should fight for a sound on them for about twenty years...."

Quote:

"Ask yourself when you play...is this the most interesting sound I've ever made ? It's a shame if it's not.

Quote:
but as has been said, the youngsters were hitting this stuff without the sound concepts of the pro players....
so things change, and a duller, big horn type sound becomes more the norm.
I'm not talking of the fine players in the profession here, but of a mass of young players that just do things in a different way.

............................

Why did Chris ask this question 3 years ago? And why is it still here?

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 4:26 am

Quote from: savio on Mar 20, 2009, 02:30PMQuote:

"They should fight for a sound on them for about twenty years...."

Quote:

"Ask yourself when you play...is this the most interesting sound I've ever made ? It's a shame if it's not.

Quote:
but as has been said, the youngsters were hitting this stuff without the sound concepts of the pro players....
so things change, and a duller, big horn type sound becomes more the norm.
I'm not talking of the fine players in the profession here, but of a mass of young players that just do things in a different way.

............................

Why did Chris ask this question 3 years ago? And why is it still here?

Leif

Well Leif,
This topic is still kicking around because people still think they have things to say.... of course, many more recent contributors will not have read all the previous posts and so the same old stuff comes around again.

Good or bad ? Neither... it's just the way a forum works.

There are some of us here that feel pretty solid in our positions, happy in our mouthpieces choices and the reasons for them.
Others are less sure, and reading here may help.

At the start of this thread... a few YEARS ago... I felt that the good ol' Bach 1 1/2G was largely regarded as yesterday's mouthpiece... and that it was being seen, especially by students, as a 'starter' bass mouthpiece.

I felt that was simply wrong, and that for some players, either for physical or tonal reasons, or perhaps both, the Bach 1 1/2G was THE choice... as much now as thirty years ago.

Go on a step and the very best Bach 1 1/2G's seem to have been made in the Mt Vernon period. There are exceptional Elkhart examples, but the Mt Vernons contain most of the gems.

I have now come across an example of Larry Minick's take on the 1 1/2G that for me goes that bit further still... sound and feel are just right for me, but that puts me in the land of the one-off, which is no help to others looking for a truly great smaller mouthpiece.

In the end, this is a place to talk 1 1/2G and to read a heck of a lot of posts by others about the 1 1/2G... not a bad thing.

Chris Stearn

ttf_slidejj · Post by **ttf_slidejj** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:54 am

Quote from: blast on Mar 21, 2009, 04:26AM
At the start of this thread... a few YEARS ago... I felt that the good ol' Bach 1 1/2G was largely regarded as yesterday's mouthpiece... and that it was being seen, especially by students, as a 'starter' bass mouthpiece.

A few years ago when this thread began, I considered the 1-1/2G yesterday's mouthpiece, but to some degree I did miss the sound as I looked for the right larger mouthpiece in the 1-1/4G range. As documented earlier I'm glad I took the plunge although it's only some variations with different rims that work for me. I struggled with the 1-1/2G rim when I played one as a student and do so now. But for me there are two variations, commonly available that work, the Rath B1-1/2W, thanks again Chris for your effort, and the Griego 2. I think that early on Chris called it a "finisher" in reference to some calling it a beginner piece, and that my well be what these are for me, for whatever reason they just work better than any other bass mouthpieces I've played. This was the first of downsizing for me, I recently bought a Xeno to replace the Edwards I'd been playing the last few years. BTW, the W seems better balanced with the Xeno than the Eddie, the 2 about the same on both, for me anyway.

ttf_wgwbassbone · Post by **ttf_wgwbassbone** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:00 am

For what it's worth I just received a Greg Black 1 and 1/2 G mouthpiece, regular weight, about 4 days ago. Very nice mouthpiece!! Beautifully made and very responsive and even throughout. Nice job Greg.

ttf_poozer · Post by **ttf_poozer** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:25 pm

Quote from: blast on Mar 11, 2009, 02:26PMHard work and talent are the most important factors in our playing, sure.

Come off it, Chris.

Everyone knows the most important thing is having a very large and expensive mouthpiece and special valves.

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:26 pm

Quote from: poozer on Mar 24, 2009, 12:25PMCome off it, Chris.

Everyone knows the most important thing is having a very large and expensive mouthpiece and special valves.
Exactly ! .... But what if you already have talent and work plenty hard as many hours as at all possible !! ??
Go the equipment route !

BTW ! Have you all seen the clips on Youtube with Glenn Gould practicing(...or practicing,playing ,singing, working, living the piece ) ?.... Trying to suck up the piano with his brain !! Anyone still thinking You work as hard as You can after seeing this,I recommend changing valvetype!!

Trond

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:29 pm

Quote from: tbarh on Mar 24, 2009, 01:26PMExactly ! .... But what if you already have talent and work plenty hard as many hours as at all possible !! ??
Go the equipment route !

BTW ! Have you all seen the clips on Youtube with Glenn Gould practicing(...or practicing,playing ,singing, working, living the piece ) ?.... Trying to suck up the piano with his brain !! Anyone still thinking You work as hard as You can after seeing this,I recommend changing valvetype!!

Trond

Or change to a MT Vernon........well Trond.....

It blows all valvetypes like it was a dream of course....

Leif

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:34 am

Quote from: savio on Mar 24, 2009, 06:29PMOr change to a MT Vernon........well Trond.....

It blows all valvetypes like it was a dream of course....

Leif

Good to hear that I did not sell You junk !!

My Laskey 85md is for sure a worthy replacement! Fits the abilities of my Conn extremly good. Maybe a tad big , but then again ,my Conn is a tad small !!

.... Not a problem to get a centered exciting sound anyways !!

Trond

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:16 am

I'm sure the 85md is fine for you Trond. When I tried it briefly I had no chance to control it. It felt very big to be a 1 1/4 size? The rim on the MT Vernon fits me perfectly. I feel I have the control and safety I need to have especially when playing concerts. Exciting sound? I seem to be one of them which only can do that with a 1 1/2g. I did sound very boring both musically and soundvise on the schilke I had for years. The MT Vernon do open up my way to play more interesting. Much more fun.

Leif

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:45 am

On a whim yesterday, I picked out my Benge 1.5G to use for orchestra rehearsal.
Oops! I warmed up for a total of ten minutes on it (this is after two hours of wind ensemble earlier in the day with the same instrument). I couldn't get a nice sound, it was always an "eeeehhhh" instead of the rounder "aaaahhhh" I'm used to with my G&W. The low register wouldn't come out at all, and the rim started killing me a couple minutes in. I plugged in my G&W, and voila! Sound, range, articulations, comfort, were all back.

Would a wide Rath rim work for me, Chris?

ttf_savio · Post by **ttf_savio** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:26 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Mar 25, 2009, 10:45AMOn a whim yesterday, I picked out my Benge 1.5G to use for orchestra rehearsal.
Oops! I warmed up for a total of ten minutes on it (this is after two hours of wind ensemble earlier in the day with the same instrument). I couldn't get a nice sound, it was always an "eeeehhhh" instead of the rounder "aaaahhhh" I'm used to with my G&W. The low register wouldn't come out at all, and the rim started killing me a couple minutes in. I plugged in my G&W, and voila! Sound, range, articulations, comfort, were all back.

Would a wide Rath rim work for me, Chris?

I don't know what Chris would say, but if the Mark 1 (I believe) works for you why not stay with it Bob. I'm sure you sound nice with it. The Rath rim is sure very nice and should work for many but....

I have posted a lot nonsens about my trying and confusing moments. Its not good for playing or musical development to do searching for mouthpieces. Sometimes we must, but its not good for developing a firm, stable and nice sound on a brass instrument.

I have always learned that it is important to be as stable as possible and use one mouthpiece all the time. In my search I can just say this is true.

If you have one that works, use it. Then you will develop much faster.

I have often mentioned my earlier teacher. He has played a DW 2al all his life. Why does he have a sound and play very secure and nice? No doubt. Its not because of equipment. Its because he is stable in using equipment.

Leif

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:07 pm

Quote from: Burgerbob on Mar 25, 2009, 10:45AMOn a whim yesterday, I picked out my Benge 1.5G to use for orchestra rehearsal.
Oops! I warmed up for a total of ten minutes on it (this is after two hours of wind ensemble earlier in the day with the same instrument). I couldn't get a nice sound, it was always an "eeeehhhh" instead of the rounder "aaaahhhh" I'm used to with my G&W. The low register wouldn't come out at all, and the rim started killing me a couple minutes in. I plugged in my G&W, and voila! Sound, range, articulations, comfort, were all back.

Would a wide Rath rim work for me, Chris?

In the end, I found the G&W Mark 1 a very strange mouthpiece... great up top and down low, but really dreadful in the mid range/mid dynamic area... FOR ME. If it is working for you, why change ??? The Benge 1 1/2G examples I have come across have all been very ordinary mouthpieces, so no surprise there.
Stick with your G&W.

Chris Stearn.

ttf_johngsteel · Post by **ttf_johngsteel** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:48 pm

I ran into something interesting when I was trying a Shires bass bone yesterday. I used my Kanstul George Robers on it. The open notes from low F down were in tune. The top of the staff b flat was very flat.

When I tuned it to be right on, everything below incrementally grew sharp.

It was even more pronounced with a Shulke 59 and 60.

It was almost spot on with a 1 1/2 G. It played very well. The Kanstul George Roberts played better down load. (much larger back bore then the standard 1 1/2 G).

Looks like I may go back to my 1 1/2G.

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:22 am

About G&W Mark 1, it did not stay on my modern bass, but it very good on my bass sackbut!
(I know, it is not historically correct, but it sounds good with the other instruments) I used it recently twice on Monteverdi Maria Wesper and the Biber Requiem.

I got the G&W Adriano this Wednesday, used it on a big band rehearsal, a jam session, a solo concert, will use it a big band dance gig tonight.

It is smaller than 1 ¼ g, a tad bigger then 1 ½ g, much better rim for me, lots of presence in the sound, I think this a stay.

It is close to the 1 ½, but for me better then the Bachs that found in latter years.

According to scientific works* on brass instruments acoustics the mouthpiece does make the higher tones lower, more so if the mouthpiece is bigger (unless you have a very strong embouchure).
(* Richard Smith, Arthure Benade, Johan Sundberg)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 3:36 pm

It might be interesting to get some visual input from a spectrometer to see if there's a certain "something" in the sound of a "really Good" Mt. Vernon Bach 1&1/2 that could be seen from a Scientific point of view. Maybe someone with a group of students and a Lathe would consider conducting such an experiment?

ttf_tbarh · Post by **ttf_tbarh** » Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:21 pm

Quote from: Donward59 on Apr 18, 2009, 03:36PMIt might be interesting to get some visual input from a spectrometer to see if there's a certain "something" in the sound of a "really Good" Mt. Vernon Bach 1&1/2 that could be seen from a Scientific point of view. Maybe someone with a group of students and a Lathe would consider conducting such an experiment?

Whatever the "zen" of a good 1 1/2G mv is , I bet You wouldn`t find it on a spectrometer ! The "magic secret" lays hidden somewhere in the triangel of good craftsmanship, the "right size" and careful quality control and scrutiny.. Besides, me thinks that our ears can beat any old spectrometer any day !

As Blast has said many times here on this thread , the 1 1/2 g is a good alternative to the usually very large "orchestral" mouthpieces that seems to have been the standard these days.. That does not mean that is has some magic properties outside beeing suitably sized for its purpose and a well made great design !! Someone said here that you should play he smallest piece you could get away with... maybe that happens to be a 1 1/2 g for a lot of people.. For the time beeing , i am stuck on a Laskey 85md which despite beeing slightly too big fits me like a glove.. But i am still looking for a 1 1/2g sized eqivalent !!

Trond

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:01 am

Quote from: Donward59 on Apr 18, 2009, 03:36PMIt might be interesting to get some visual input from a spectrometer to see if there's a certain "something" in the sound of a "really Good" Mt. Vernon Bach 1&1/2 that could be seen from a Scientific point of view. Maybe someone with a group of students and a Lathe would consider conducting such an experiment?

Now let me see....
Students.... yup...
Lathe.... yup...
Mt Vernon 1 1/2G's.... yup....

Na !!! I'm not tricked that easily

Chris Stearn

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 1:04 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 18, 2009, 04:22AMAbout G&W Mark 1, it did not stay on my modern bass, but it very good on my bass sackbut!
(I know, it is not historically correct, but it sounds good with the other instruments) I used it recently twice on Monteverdi Maria Wesper and the Biber Requiem.

I got the G&W Adriano this Wednesday, used it on a big band rehearsal, a jam session, a solo concert, will use it a big band dance gig tonight.

It is smaller than 1 ¼ g, a tad bigger then 1 ½ g, much better rim for me, lots of presence in the sound, I think this a stay.

It is close to the 1 ½, but for me better then the Bachs that found in latter years.

According to scientific works* on brass instruments acoustics the mouthpiece does make the higher tones lower, more so if the mouthpiece is bigger (unless you have a very strong embouchure).
(* Richard Smith, Arthure Benade, Johan Sundberg)

Svenne, is the rim on the Adriano the same shape as that on the Mk 1 ???? What would you say are the differences in blow and sound between the Adriano and the Mk 1 ?

Chris Stearn

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 5:07 am

The rim is shaped the same as on MK 1.
The Adriano is more even in blow (the MK 1 was kind of different in different ranges, does that make sense to you?) the sound very trombonistic the low range has a good depths to it, the upper ranger blends very good with the tenors in the passages that goes a little higher, as in the big band gig yesterday. It is definitely a stay.
More free blow, richer sound.

For me the MK 1 was not really an alternative for my regular playing, surprisingly it found a place in the sackbut.
(I have spendt lots of money on sackbut mouthpiece, like historic copies, ordered stock models and hand made by specialists, the MK 1 beat them all

)

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:31 am

Quote from: tbarh on Apr 18, 2009, 04:21PMWhatever the "zen" of a good 1 1/2G mv is , I bet You wouldn`t find it on a spectrometer ! The "magic secret" lays hidden somewhere in the triangel of good craftsmanship, the "right size" and careful quality control and scrutiny.. Besides, me thinks that our ears can beat any old spectrometer any day !

As Blast has said many times here on this thread , the 1 1/2 g is a good alternative to the usually very large "orchestral" mouthpieces that seems to have been the standard these days.. That does not mean that is has some magic properties outside beeing suitably sized for its purpose and a well made great design !! Someone said here that you should play he smallest piece you could get away with... maybe that happens to be a 1 1/2 g for a lot of people.. For the time beeing , i am stuck on a Laskey 85md which despite beeing slightly too big fits me like a glove.. But i am still looking for a 1 1/2g sized eqivalent !!

Trond
That's exactly the reason to give it a try-I have and have had many Mt. Vernon 1&1/2's throughout my playing career. They all have a certain "something". But it's entirely subjective. It might be nice to have a read out that could be used to back up certain claims when telling mouthpiece makers why they're not making a 1&1/2G

Just a thought

ttf_johngsteel · Post by **ttf_johngsteel** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:37 pm

Chris, I just had a thought. This thread has touched on the differences between the "same" release of a specific mouthpiece. e.g., a number of Mount Vernon 1 1/2 G's will play just a bit different.

In your opinion, would that also not be true for all other types and sizes of mouthpieces?

Yea, I know, there I go thinking again...

ttf_GetzenBassPlayer · Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:55 pm

Quote from: johngsteel on Apr 20, 2009, 12:37PMChris, I just had a thought. This thread has touched on the differences between the "same" release of a specific mouthpiece. e.g., a number of Mount Vernon 1 1/2 G's will play just a bit different.

In your opinion, would that also not be true for all other types and sizes of mouthpieces?

Yea, I know, there I go thinking again...

With the technology available now, the degree of differences in the final product is much less. This question came up in a thread on clocking. When I talked to Ivan Giddings, he told me that they measured each piece for consistency and if it did not fall within the companies parameters, the piece was disposed of.

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:55 pm

Quote from: johngsteel on Apr 20, 2009, 12:37PMChris, I just had a thought. This thread has touched on the differences between the "same" release of a specific mouthpiece. e.g., a number of Mount Vernon 1 1/2 G's will play just a bit different.

In your opinion, would that also not be true for all other types and sizes of mouthpieces?

Yea, I know, there I go thinking again...

I've found that ALL mouthpieces are unique to themselves in spite of identical make/model numbers on the outside of the cup. I have several different Hammond 21BXLs, BLs and Laskey 93Ds all play/sound a bit different and work best with different horns.

ttf_BassBoneFL · Post by **ttf_BassBoneFL** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:10 pm

Quote from: GetzenBassPlayer on Apr 20, 2009, 02:55PMWith the technology available now, the degree of differences in the final product is much less. This question came up in a thread on clocking. When I talked to Ivan Giddings, he told me that they measured each piece for consistency and if it did not fall within the companies parameters, the piece was disposed of.

The degree may be less but there IS a difference/variation. When a 1mm difference in rim size can encompass 2-4 mouthpiece models by a single maker and 0.015 inches separates tenor and bass trombone bores, small variations can make big differences.

ttf_johngsteel · Post by **ttf_johngsteel** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:21 pm

Ah, so this thread is hitting up on an interesting path associated with different ages of manufacturing, and different vendors.

- All manufactures have a tolerance factor in their products.
- All products respond differently, depending upon the difference of the manufacture approved product allowed tolerances.
- Early manufactured products have an assumed larger tolerance range than current products. This is a logical assumption because of advanced technology allows for closer tolerances.

Killer. So a great 1 1/2G for me may be horrible for you, and vice versa. Also, there may be some 1 1/2 G's out there that just play poor in general, and some that are awesome. All due to the age of manufacturing and the differences of tolerances or deviations allowed from the perfect standard.

ttf_Doug Elliott · Post by **ttf_Doug Elliott** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:27 pm

There is necessarily "tolerance" in the manufacture of anything.
There may be differences in the metal itself from one to the next; or the plating.

Regardless of the technology or accuracy of the machine itself, it still depends on who's running the machine and how careful everything is checked during the process, and from one batch to the next, which may be weeks or months apart. Plus there may be intentional design changes within a model over a period of time. In 28 years I've been through about 5 or 6 subtle and not-so-subtle design changes but I still use the same numbering system.

ttf_blast · Post by **ttf_blast** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:33 pm

Bottom line... EVERY mouthpiece is different. Good and bad out there of pretty well everything. Some makers range from 'good' to 'brilliant', others from 'ok' to 'good', and others from 'rubbish' to 'better than it should be'. The odd thing about Mt Vernon Bachs is that they all seem to be different, but all seem to be good... well, very good.

Chris Stearn

ttf_johngsteel · Post by **ttf_johngsteel** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:37 pm

Well said. I still like my old 1 1/2g and my George Robers Kanstul remake.