My new carbon fiber bass trombone by Butler Trombones

[sf105]

The music world, especially the orchestra world, is VERY conservative. I recently bought a Rath bell in 'scratch lacquer' finish that has caught the attention of not only my colleagues in the brass section, but members of the wind and strings and even management ! A perfectly normal bell with an unusual finish. I can only imagine the reaction to a Carbon Fiber bell. What a shame that people hear with their eyes.
Douglas and I are part of the first generation to play double valve basses for our whole careers ....we are really in uncharted territory.
Many of my students have, over the years, complained of hand, arm and shoulder pain. The usual problem has been with the instrument ergonomics rather a simple weight issue, but I have no doubt that less weight would be a benefit for all.

Good thing your bell wasn't silver plated, then... A horn-player friend is struggling with that one.

I remember Nev Roberts (who played an iron-age Bach double) saying he once had to unlock his left arm in the shower the next morning after a day of Carmina Burana.

Perhaps the best route in will be through the commercial world, where people play longer gigs and there's a bit more flex? All those studio players with their contras for soundtracks.

S

[JohnL]

While it would be nice to have a lighter instrument, that won't help the repetitive part of the repetitive stress injury equation. A lot of that comes back to things we as players need to remember to do when we're playing long sessions.

[Jgittleson]

While the topic of weight is in play, might I add that it paints an incomplete picture. One of my pursuits is astronomy, and mounting a telescope seems to have some similarities. There are 2 main things to consider. While weight is one, length is the other, to be specific the length of a moment arm. In theory if 2 instruments weigh the same, but one was simply shorter, the level of stress on the mount (in this can the person holding the horn) is decreased. This became obvious to me with my horns, since even though the weight is margonally less, the length is significantly reduced. In turn the instrument becomes far more wieldable.

For what its worth.

[Jimkinkella]

I've played both the decarbo horns and the the Jimmy Dell Bach at the brassark right now, the Jimmy Dell was much more balanced and predictable.
Haven't played the Butler.

I've found them all to play very light and nimble, but none of them have have produced the sound that I expected.
The Jimmy Dell 12 sounded a lot like Bob McChesney's old 8, but with a different response. They were both cool, but neither made me a convert.

Chris has brought up an excellent point, we're looking at a couple of different issues now, ergonomics, volume, and blend (if not more).

[whitbey]

There really are two different topics here and blending them is causing much confusion.
There is a discussion about the development of ever louder sounds in the orchestra, and the development of Carbon Fiber as a brass instrument material.
We would probably be best served if we discuss Carbon Fiber here and start a new thread on orchestra volume.
The music world, especially the orchestra world, is VERY conservative. I recently bought a Rath bell in 'scratch lacquer' finish that has caught the attention of not only my colleagues in the brass section, but members of the wind and strings and even management ! A perfectly normal bell with an unusual finish. I can only imagine the reaction to a Carbon Fiber bell. What a shame that people hear with their eyes.
Douglas and I are part of the first generation to play double valve basses for our whole careers ....we are really in uncharted territory.
Many of my students have, over the years, complained of hand, arm and shoulder pain. The usual problem has been with the instrument ergonomics rather a simple weight issue, but I have no doubt that less weight would be a benefit for all.
Let's hope that carbon Fiber will get a fair hearing. I have no idea how it will play in an orchestra in a large concert hall. Only time will tell.

Chris Stearn

Butler could improve the sound of there horns simply by painting them with brass colored paint.

[dershem]

The escalation of dynamics in symphony orchestras (and big bands) has been driven not by changes in the instruments themselves. There have not been significant changes in string instruments since the change from gut to steel strings at the beginning of the 20th century (over 100 years ago). There have been no changes to woodwind instruments in 100+ years that have significantly altered their timbre or dynamic range. These kinds of changes have been mostly been made to brass instruments, and to trombones more than trumpets, horns, trumpets, and tubas. This unilateral change in the way brass instruments deliver sound - louder and "more efficient" - became the orchestral equivalent to listening to music with earbuds on a noisy subway, with the listener needing music louder and louder not simply to hear the music, but to get the "excitement high" that became associated with loud music.

Culturally, we are reaching the tipping point where the "excitement high" is not enough. It is like a drug. You use more and more to get the same "rush" and eventually, there is no more that can be used unless suicide is desired. We are busy flipping the channel of our lives hundreds of times a day, afraid of a moment of quiet or contemplation, needing more and more excitement to get through the day. Eventually there is no more excitement to give: the music cannot get faster or louder or higher. What then?

-Douglas Yeo

Bill Watrous used to have a regular ant about this. When he started playing professionally (about when I was born) people were still mostly playing smaller horns, and playing with a bit more finesse. Horns got bigger, orchestras got bigger and louder, big bands got more and more amplified and electronic, and players more and more 'blew themselves out' on long gigs/careers. He called the trend toward .547 and bigger horns in Big Bands using "elephant guns" to kill gnats. When you have a big band section of 2Bs and 3Bs, with a Bach 50 (maybe) on bass, the sound is much lighter than today's section where you may have a lead player on a Bach 16, and everyone else on something larger. And to balance those big horns at the bottom end (and the guitar, bass and piano amps), you not only lose some of that lightness and 'edge', you all end up playing louder. And that costs.

I have yet to play on a Butler - WAY beyond my price range at present - but I like the potential. I'm 61, and after a 4 hour gig on bass bone, my hands and shoulder hurt. Some of that is the arthritis, some general age, but some is just playing bigger instruments. In contrast (and following on Doug's comments) in reaction to the whole Monette thing, a lot of trumpeters are going towards lighter, nimbler instruments. My principal trumpet is a Yamaha "Miyashiro" model, which is extremely light and nimble.

We'll have to see what the future holds. In the mean time, I'd like to try a Butler some day.

[DougHulme]

I'm not sure this coment will add anything to the debate but it is slightly interesting.

My dad who passed last year was a really great solo trombone player in an amatuer sense. He spent all his years playing with The Salvation Army in various well known bands. He worked for 40 years at The Royal Aircraft Establishement in Farnborough. It was his little team of 6 that discovered and developed Carbon Fibre. I'm not sure he ever experimented with Carbon Fibre bells but he certainly did make some with various other plastic materials, so like as not he did. So its a fact - Carbon fibre was 'invented' by a trombone player! If Doug is right about where this is going my dad would have been so chuffed... I'm amused if not proud!... Doug

[LeoInFL]

Resurrecting this thread because I stumbled across Mr Yeo's Southern Gothic video on youtube today.


Just wondering if Mr Yeo has taken the next step forward and installed the carbon fiber valves that Latzsch offers on their trombones. (I realize that he's a Yamaha artist, but I'd be curious if the thought has crossed his mind). That would be probably the lightest you can go.

[Reedman1]

This is a great discussion. I’d just like to throw in my two cents. As an amateur in my 60s, with left shoulder issues, I bit the bullet and bought a Butler 2B slide and a Peppy 2B bell. The horn is well balanced, and the slide is so light and easy that I smile every time I play it. It sounds every bit as good as the original outer slide, and is so much nicer to play. I may have to get a Butler bell, too... it’s a Good Thing. Really.

[Tremozl]

Would be interesting to see if a double-trigger BBb contrabass trombone could actually be viable with carbon fiber materials..

Would ideally be proportioned like the massive CC / BBb Cimbassi in terms of bore, bell throat, etc. for more open blow in the lowest range.

If it could be done for like 15-18K, I'd definitely begin pinching pennies...

[sungfw]

Bill Watrous used to have a regular ant about this.

Yup. It bugged him a little. If it REALLY bugged him, he'd of had a gi ant.

[Backbone]

Weight is definitely and issue for me. Ergo-bone has solved that issue! One other effect of weight I noticed after getting the Ergo-bone and then holding the horn without it is that as the horn's weight begins to take effect, it starts to droop downward onto the embouchure. This effect is removed with the Ergo-bone.

[timothy42b]

Bill Watrous used to have a regular ant about this.

Yup. It bugged him a little. If it REALLY bugged him, he'd of had a gi ant.

Well played, sir!

[timothy42b]

I played the Butler tenor at ATW this year.

I loved the ergonomics.

It’s hard to tell sound in a big loud room with everyone blasting. I just don’t know how I sounded. I’m not a great player anyway, and the feedback from the bell is different.

I asked them about an alto. They had talked about it but were not very positive about there being a market. I suggested it might help with the nose heavy alto problem.

[dershem]

Bill Watrous used to have a regular ant about this.

Yup. It bugged him a little. If it REALLY bugged him, he'd of had a gi ant.

[silverslideman]

Horn Guys have been carrying a European competitor, DeCarbo, for a few years. They too are getting good reviews. They appear to be new designs, rather than working with existing parts.

It would be great if somebody could do a test comparing Butler horns with daCarbo horns. Would have to be on tenors for now as afaik daCarbo doesn't make a bass.

[tskeldon]

B.A.C. is now doing a carbon fiber slide, and a hybrid, with only one outer tube CF. I want the slide to be light only so that it doesn't fight against itself in the distant positions causing undue ware. I'm waiting to hear from them to see if they can accommodate my custom requirements even though I'm nobody of note.

With regards to instruments getting bigger and heavier, as a result of the pursuit of ever greater volume, which necessitates the use of lighter material, I think you are all mistaken. Instruments got bigger as orchestral brass players became more and more musically gentrified, and ironically, embarrassed about sounding 'brassy'.

This brings us to the other historical element, and the 'German' sound: a time when smaller instruments (and mouthpieces) generated a polite and sweet sound in soft chorales, but blazed radiantly at a volume that would today be considered 'barely' authoritative, revealing the internal voices and textures the composer intended.

How is it that string and woodwind players play successful recitals without ever testing the limits of our hearing, while brass players, given into the same forum, forge contracts with such unmusical excess as to prove comical. A famous violinist and conductor called trombone recitals belching contests, except he didn't say belching!

I won't post any of the iconic recital performances by your trombone Gods hear to make a point. Instead I would encourage you to listen to the sound of trombones (correctly fed by smaller, 'V' shaped mouthpieces) playing resonantly and radiantly at volumes sufficient to orchestral authority:

Fortunately, things are starting to move in a healthy new direction. My point is that, as good a sound as this is, its still far too loud given the potential of the orchestration. IMHO.

[tskeldon]

P.S. I am aware of the irony that the video performance I have posted extolling the ringing sound of the 'German' style is performed by Italians. What do you think of the sound? There are plenty of performances by famous orchestral section to compare it to.

[Burgerbob]

P.S. I am aware of the irony that the video performance I have posted extolling the ringing sound of the 'German' style is performed by Italians. What do you think of the sound? There are plenty of performances by famous orchestral section to compare it to.

That was certainly a performance to compare to. Is it better?

AR mouthpieces are not necessarily "smaller, V cup" mouthpieces, btw.

[tskeldon]

Hi Bob,

No, not better, just differently 'scaled'. And you are of course quite correct... AR mouthpieces are not 'necessarily' smaller of more V shaped; though it is a house philosophy that North American performers fail to embrace.

OH! By the way, I meant to thank Doug for using his real name. There are, it seems (though I am not one of them), some considerable talents hiding amongst these trombone thickets. His experience gives extra weight to his opinion.

[Burgerbob]

To my ear, it was quite sloppy. Nathan is a bit aggressive for my taste on the 3rds in the STS video, but overall they are a much tighter ensemble.

Which one would sound louder in an orchestra? Who knows. One section is playing in a house, the other in a quite nice hall.

[harrisonreed]

I'm sure it's just the room and the microphones, but the AR video sounds like three alto trombones...

Pedals don't sound good on alto...

[SwissTbone]

I won't post any of the iconic recital performances by your trombone Gods hear to make a point. Instead I would encourage you to listen to the sound of trombones (correctly fed by smaller, 'V' shaped mouthpieces) playing resonantly and radiantly at volumes sufficient to orchestral authority:

Fortunately, things are starting to move in a healthy new direction. My point is that, as good a sound as this is, its still far too loud given the potential of the orchestration. IMHO.

We are comparing apples to oranges here on so many levels. It's almost ironic.

[tskeldon]

Update: Ultimately B.A.C. dropped the ball on my build, as both the owner and the manager failed to follow-up with me about the parts, cost, delivery etc. Eventually I reached out to them again, because I was curious about their business practices, and I got more apologies, along with an expression of willingness to do the work, but no answers to any of the simple questions necessary to facilitate or undertake the build. Make of it what you will. [Note: It turns out that they had already built a carbon fiber slide for a Williams model 4, because it was for sale on another sight, but no one ever mentioned it to me, nor did that previous 'build' experience advise their response...or...maybe it did!]