Bass trombone and the 2nd valve

[MStarke]

For me the keypoint of F/G or Gb/D or F/D (for a dependent system) is that the first valve has the same tuning as most tenors with valve. Of course it can be discussed if the latter is a good choice.

But generally speaking it is certainly practical not only for doublers, but also for people switching and sometimes for section playing to have the same logic at least on the first valve.

If the above were not the case, and it could be viewed completely isolated, E/G/D or G/E/D sounds like a good idea.

[Sesquitone]

For me the keypoint of F/G or Gb/D or F/D (for a dependent system) is that the first valve has the same tuning as most tenors with valve. Of course it can be discussed if the latter is a good choice.

But generally speaking it is certainly practical not only for doublers, but also for people switching and sometimes for section playing to have the same logic at least on the first valve.

If the above were not the case, and it could be viewed completely isolated, E/G/D or G/E/D sounds like a good idea.

Yes, this is exactly the point that I have been trying to make: the difference between sub-optimal evolution (SOE) and starting over, trying to be as close as possible to globally optimal design. On an inline (Bb) dual-valve setup, the "first" (i.e. thumb-trigger actuated) valve (whether upstream or downstream) is taken for granted to be F: to be compatible with the single (thumb-trigger actuated) valve on (most) tenors, which is taken for granted to be F (with slight variations such as "E-pull"). [This is the "conventional" single-valve tuning: ever since C F Sattler invented the quick-change mechanism using a return spring (instead of a static valve) in 1839.] Then we can discuss the virtues of various tuning choices for the "second valve", as has occurred here.

If you have one valve on a tenor, what is it to be used for? Primarily for extending the sub-tenor range down towards pedals (in which case, there might be a few handy attachment alternates offering more facile slide manipulation)? Or primarily for offering more attachment alternates—e.g. mimicking the facile natural harmonics of the slide-alone upper register—(in which case there might be a few notes available below the usual tenor range, E2)? The Bb/F tuning happens to (sort of) do both—in a sub-optimal way: offering (only) four attachment alternates in closer slide positions, and (more-or-less) four of the five missing notes in the tenor gap (with the frustrating absence of the B1). A "reasonable" compromise over the last one-hundred-and eighty-seven years (and likely to continue).

For extending the range down to pedals with a single-valve bass trombone (with a 7-position slide in Bb), there is a unique choice: the quint valve, Bb/Eb. Slide manipulation is no more "awkward" than with the non-attachment Bb tenor. The "problem", already alluded to, is that the bass-trombone repertoire will require many more "near-end-of-slide" notes to be played; and this is awkward. [Actually, C/F is a less awkward possibility.] So we should look at dual-valve possibilities, both dependent and independent.

But first, we should look at the "best" (thumb-trigger) single-valve tuning for the tenor to optimise low-tenor-range slide facility—without concern for added sub-tenor notes. Once we've decided on that, we can use this for the compatible thumb-trigger valve on the bass. There are three viable (descending-valve) candidates: major-second, minor-third, and major-third. It turns out that the minor-third provides attachment harmonics that interleave with the slide-alone harmonics in such a way that the combination is amazingly similar to the (slide-alone) natural harmonics in upper register—offering very "smooth" slide facility all the way down throughout the (otherwise awkward) bass clef. We could do Bb/G. We could also do C/A: with seven positions in C, we have six positions in A—taking us down to E2, the bottom of the standard (non-pedal) tenor range. [There are also two additional "bonus" pedals. For those following all this detail, I will leave identifying those as a "homework" exercise.]

So now, for the bass, we use the minor-third for the compatible thumb-trigger valve, and look at criteria for designing the second valve: dependent or independent. [For those favouring the major-third single-valve tenor, there is an interesting dependent dual-valve tuning for bass: Bb/F#/D. The augmented triad (with the slide closed) evenly fills in the octave gap between the Bb fundamental and first harmonic.] For independent tunings, we again look for combinations that provide uniform interleaving of the available lower harmonics of the (finger-trigger) valve with those of the thumb-trigger valve and slide-alone harmonics. I will skip the dirty details, but it turns out that the two most uniform interleavings are:

Bb/G(thumb)+E(finger)=D(double) and Bb/G(thumb)+Eb(finger)=Db(double).

Note that the latter is (perhaps not surprisingly) a transposition (up a P4) of the European tuning of the F contra.



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[timothy42b]

Very logical.

A C/A tenor would give you the missing low B as a pedal. I think you have a tenor set up that way, do you find that pedal a useful note? Better than the false tone on trigger third with an F attachment?

[Finetales]

For me the keypoint of F/G or Gb/D or F/D (for a dependent system) is that the first valve has the same tuning as most tenors with valve. Of course it can be discussed if the latter is a good choice.

That's the overarching point, that F is not the only solution for a single valve instrument. And I would argue it's worse overall than a G valve, but that's probably a discussion for the many other threads we've done on that.

A C/A tenor would give you the missing low B as a pedal. I think you have a tenor set up that way, do you find that pedal a useful note? Better than the false tone on trigger third with an F attachment?

Yes, the low C and B are great notes on the C tenor, and the A valve makes the lowest valve note E, allowing you to play anything for straight Bb tenor on it. The low C and B are great on the Yamaha YSL-350C as well, though that horn doesn't have the low E.

[MahlerMusic]

Trumpet and Tuba players seems to love their C or CC setups. I wish there was a Professional C option for tenor Orchestra work.
On a side note I love using my G Contra on Bass stuff and again wish there was a G Bass option but this is not as usefully as many 3rd/Bass trombone parts are in the tenor range and if you get petals most are just Bb and A which are deep into the valves on a G.

[Finetales]

Trumpet and Tuba players seems to love their C or CC setups. I wish there was a Professional C option for tenor Orchestra work.

Lars Gerdt makes one now (with a G attachment), the model 316. It's a .500" bore, so probably only appropriate for certain lighter rep in the orchestra.

On a side note I love using my G Contra on Bass stuff and again wish there was a G Bass option but this is not as usefully as many 3rd/Bass trombone parts are in the tenor range and if you get petals most are just Bb and A which are deep into the valves on a G.

I have a wonderful German large bore G bass with a valve. I haven't used it in the wild yet, but I think it would be great for a lot of orchestral rep.

[Sesquitone]

Very logical.

A C/A tenor would give you the missing low B as a pedal. I think you have a tenor set up that way, do you find that pedal a useful note? Better than the false tone on trigger third with an F attachment?

Yes, the "bonus" pedals are C2 and B1—both very robust tones. But the C/A tenor (with 7 positions in C and 6 in A) is not continuously chromatic: Eb2, D2, and Db2 are missing—as seen in the ETSP Chart, below (extracted from a long-expired patent). [Roman numerals indicate harmonics.] Again, note the evenly distributed interleaving of slide-alone (black dots) and attachment (open circle) harmonics, closely mimicking the facile natural harmonics of the upper register.

You could keep the longer slide, picking up the Eb, but this would defeat an important attribute: the scaled-down slide of the C/A tenor, being 12% shorter than the Bb tenor, has proportionally less mass (i.e. both inertia and weight) and friction area, and is thereby very "fast" and well balanced.

And yes, this instrument parallels the C trumpet often used in orchestras and small brass ensembles. It has great carrying power.

[Some might say that "middle-C" on this trombone is "explosive". Handle with care!!!]


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[Sesquitone]

I wish there was a Professional C option for tenor Orchestra work.
On a side note I love using my G Contra on Bass stuff and again wish there was a G Bass option.

The Yamaha YSL-350C has a dual-bore slide, 12.7 mm/13.3 mm (0.500''/0.525''), and a 204 mm (8'') bell. This is marketed as a "beginning" instrument for young students, nominally tuned to Bb with an ascending valve to C: 7 positions in C, but only 6 in Bb (missing E2). But it can be easily modified for professional use as a C/A instrument. The ascending-valve rotor can be simply reset 90º, making it descending. And the (then Bb) crook can be easily extended to A by a brass tech.

I, too, wish there was a commercially available "real bass trombone" option—tuned: G/E+C=Bb, i.e. up a major-second from the European tuning of the F contra. See comparative ETSP Charts. Note the significantly shorter slide for the G bass. [The coloured shading is bounded by chromatic scales of shortest (red) and longest (blue) slide positions; the wider the unshaded portion on any given horizontal line, the more available alternates there are. Where the coloured regions touch, there are no alternates. Open circles are thumb-trigger attachment tones, stars are for the independent finger trigger, and cartwheels for the double combination.]


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[MahlerMusic]

I wish there was a Professional C option for tenor Orchestra work.
On a side note I love using my G Contra on Bass stuff and again wish there was a G Bass option.

I, too, wish there was a commercially available "real bass trombone" option—tuned: G/E+C=Bb, i.e. up a major-second from the European tuning of the F contra.


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Why use the European Tuning? My G is G/D+E = Sharp B or G/D+Eb = Sharp BBb, this way the Thump Trigger is 6th position and the Finger Trigger is 4th or 5th position just like a "Bass"

[Sesquitone]

One advantage of an inline, dual-valve contra in F is that (given appropriate valve tunings) the slide needs to be no longer than a 7-position slide in Bb—i.e. a "handle-free" slide. The two commercially available tunings for the F contra are the "European" (F/D+Bb=Ab) and the "American" (F/C+Db=A), the latter being a transposition down by a P4 of the most common inline dual-valve bass-trombone tuning, Bb/F+Gb=D. The other (now, not so common) bass-trombone tuning is Bb/F+G="flat-Eb" (the "Eb" is too flat to be useful). This has the advantage of the G-natural 2nd valve. The main disadvantage of this tuning is (only) that the B1 is at a somewhat longer slide position. If this is transposed down by a P4, the corresponding note, F#1, is beyond the length of the "handle-free" slide.

Both Bb bass-trombone tunings can be transposed down a minor-third for a bass in G. Alternatively, both the F-contra tunings can be transposed up a major-second. The transposed "American" tuning being common to both strategies. All of these strategies—keeping the same relative tunings of both valves—amount to Sub-Optimal Evolution (SOE).

The alternative strategy is to appeal to Globally Optimal Design: "You have two (independent) valves available. Tune each in order to make slide manipulation as facile as possible throughout the whole register". Without going into details—or a discussion of appropriate TLAs (Three-Letter Acronyms)—let me just say that two tunings for the G bass trombone handed down by Globally Optimal Design are definitely worth exploring: G/E+C=Bb and G/E+C#=B.

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[timothy42b]

I am intrigued, but there don't seem to be reasonably priced used 350C's around.

There is a John Packer copy. hmm.

[AtomicClock]

There is a John Packer copy. hmm.

Also Schiller: https://www.schillerinstruments.com/sto ... -trombone/

I wish someone would review it.

[Sesquitone]

Another way to look at 2nd-valve tuning on inline designs is to use a kind of "slide-rule". For example, if we start with Jonathan Harker's precise "Universal Trombone Slide" and lay out horizontally the positions in staff notation, the increments between successive notes will be shown to increase geometrically (each about 6% longer than the previous increment). For F and Gb valves, we add the length representing the increment between Bb and Gb to the position representing F. Then see where that "lands" back on the universal slide. In this case, just slightly beyond D (by a few cents). Then we lay out underneath that a 7-position tenor slide and see where the end of the slide brings us back to on the universal slide, showing the lowest possible note available.

The first cut-and-taped sketch shows how that turns out. In particular, we see that the (non-pedal) Bb1 is captured at the end of the slide. The B1 is seen to be about halfway between slide-alone 5th and 6th.

The second sketch shows the same idea for the 2nd valve tuned to G-natural. In this case, the combination "lands" back on the universal slide at almost a third of a semitone beyond Eb. So the highest available (equitempered) double-valve combination is D2. The B1 is well on the slide ("still there!"). But the non-pedal Bb1 is not captured.

The next pair of tape-ups show the two commercial F-contra tunings, first the European tuning (F/D+Bb=Ab), and, finally, the American tuning (F/C+Db=A). With a slight stretch (of the Bb-tenor-length slide), the European tuning captures the low (non-pedal) F1. Also shown (by the dashed lines) is why the second valve tuned to D-natural does not reach the Gb1 (without an extension handle)—and so is not fully chromatic.

Of course, the same "slide-rule" idea can be used for designing, analysing, or tweaking any combination of base tuning and the respective tunings of both valves.

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