TromboneChat

JTeagarden wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:58 pm
As further evidence for this I might point to Christian Lindberg, who started playing trombone at 16, and 2 years later, was playing in the Royal Swedish Opera.

Christian had to check himself into a mental health institution with psychosis shortly after he started getting serious about playing because he practiced himself silly. That guy has practiced more than just about anybody.

LeTromboniste wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 2:59 pm

tbdana wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:21 pm But again, I never intended this to be a discussion about how to play high notes. Of course, if some of you wanna take it there, go for it. just don’t infer or imply that I had any part in that exercise.

To be fair you posted a rant about the abundance of bad advice about high range (and I absolutely agree with you). I think a discussion about high range is kind of the obvious most likely outcome of such a post.

Well, that makes a lot of sense. No wonder I didn't think of it!

My personal pet peeve is advice to avoid placing the mouthpiece on the red of the upper lip at all costs. If that wasn’t so prevalent I might have been allowed to play that way from the age of 10 and not had to learn at the age of 27 that the real key to unlocking the upper register is to actually place the mouthpiece on the red of the upper lip. It had absolutely nothing to do with breath control, tongue position, musical expression, or avoiding unnecessary tension.

/rant

Of course, that’s just my personal experience. Because my own path was so different from the mainstream I know that this is something personal to me. But I have been called out online at times, sometimes by very good players and teachers, for simply allowing for placement on the red, under certain circumstances. According to them, I’m giving very bad advice.

I think the interesting thing about Dana’s rant is that we all sometimes can do the same thing she is complaining about. We could point to anecdotes or hypotheticals where following some things from that list of bad advice might actually (or just seemingly) have a positive result on a player's high range. The real key to every issue comes down to making the correction that's appropriate for that player at that time. If it's how the tongue should be working it might seem to the player that it’s the key to the high range. But if it's something else, then that player could be pushing playing pedal tones to open up the upper register.

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 8:59 am We will have to agree to disagree about the tongue being the key to a good high range, though. It's everything.

Your path was different from mine. It’s not everyone’s key. This is the detail I wish you would agree to. There’s nothing wrong for advocating for correct tonguing technique, but it’s never going to be a panacea for high range. I won’t agree to disagree about this point. Otherwise we’re doing the same thing Dana was complaining about.

tbdana wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:21 pm Of course, any muscle movement at all takes some measure of strength, but is that the essence of the activity? Is strength the answer to playing high notes? Hell no!

You have a different path too. One of the most successful approaches I've found for fixing a smile embouchure is to help the player build strength in the area just under the mouth corners. I can totally see a player who corrected a smile embouchure with the aid of a P.E.T.E., for example, expounding online that the key to a strong upper register is building strength.

tbdana wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:21 pm Saying that high notes should feel effortless is not “a specific instruction.“ That’s just nuts.

I prefer the way you phrased it here, high notes should feel effortless. That makes it clear that we're discussing a goal and not a process. But I think your earlier statement should have been phrased in less absolute language. If more strength is needed, then I wouldn't want to discourage that. You were advocating only feel, finesse and effortless playing. If that's what a player needs to work on, I don't want to discourage that either. We have to be careful not to accidentally do the exact same thing you’re ranting about.

I've found it to be difficult to offer advice online without giving bad information to someone in a different situation. I try to qualify my statements, but it's a hard process and I'm not always successful either.

tbdana wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 1:21 pm One of the things that frustrates me about pendants and academics is the tendency to parse everything down into meaninglessness. That certainly happens in discussions about how to play high notes. But again, I never intended this to be a discussion about how to play high notes. Of course, if some of you wanna take it there, go for it. just don’t infer or imply that I had any part in that exercise.

I don't mean to pick on you, Dana. I agree with you about bad advice on the internet and it frustrates me too. I try to combat that as best as I can by offering the best advice I can, when I can. But your frustration with your intent being missed is something that only you can fix. In our defense, you devoted your largest paragraph in your initial post discussing your path on how to learn to play in the high range. And you did join in on that discussion, at least for a while.

I, for one, welcome more of both Harrison’s and Dana's participation about how to play high notes. You certainly can back up your experiences on your path with your playing. And I’d love to hear about everyone else’s path too.

Dave

I've led a fortunate and charmed musical life. I've had the incredible honor and pleasure to sit next to and be friends with many of the best trombonists in the world. I've been able to work with most of the heroes from my youth, from Jimmy Pankow, to Dick Nash, to Ralph Sauer, to Bill Watrous, to Frank Rosolino, to dozens more. I've had the honor of witnessing, up close, more greatness in my life than any one person deserves. And for that, I'm incredibly grateful.

My gratitude is a daily way of life. I never should have posted this rant. It's not in keeping with the way I live.

I've worked incredibly hard to hone my mechanics and be able to play my entire instrument. And at the risk of coming off egotistical, I think I do it pretty well. Yet I'm never satisfied with it. I always want to learn more. And, like everyone, I have periods where I struggle, or get frustrated when things aren't going right, or have trouble learning a new skill. So it was with great empathy for others going through what I've gone through that I ranted about the bad advice a couple people were getting when they had the poor judgment to ask about fixing their upper register on the internet.

I'm happy to talk with anyone. You can find me on Facebook under danaruns. My email address is listed in my profile. And I'm happy to give out my cell number to anyone who wants to talk trombone playing. But hopefully I have finally learned my lesson about posting my frustrations here.

Ciao!

tbdana wrote: Fri Nov 21, 2025 11:48 am But hopefully I have finally learned my lesson about posting my frustrations here.

Just become a site moderator. Then you can shift the "high range advice" posts into a separate thread, declaring them off-topic for yours.

Just thinking today that bad advice propagates partly because of people seeking quick answers. No one early in a process and struggling wants to hear the real answer to playing improvement: years of hours a day work stacked on top of each-other.

I see the impulse in running too. People want to know Kipchoge”s or Noah Lyle’s workout. They don’t want to hear about the decade or more of 100 mile weeks or constant attention to strength, conditioning and diet that lead to success.

With the”one thing” thread it should probably be the one thing that made the final difference or made the most difference after all the work to put a player in position to make a break through.

harrisonreed wrote: Thu Nov 20, 2025 3:17 pm Christian had to check himself into a mental health institution with psychosis shortly after he started getting serious about playing because he practiced himself silly. That guy has practiced more than just about anybody.

I'm not surprised. What I saw during my -brief- time studying with Charlie Vernon was that he could spend hours working the things that make most of us normal humans bored to f*cking tears, and do it with full focus the whole time. The natural outcome of that is fantastic skill. Or psychosis. (I think I successfully avoided both.)

Well... as trombone players, we can all learn a lot from our brothers and sisters who are trumpet players and teachers.

- the best all-round trumpet players with great high range never talk about 'closing the centre of the aperture' as if it was a camera lens becoming a smaller and smaller hole for the air to go through.

Why? They barely have enough room inside their mouthpiece rim as it that creates room for their lips to vibrate.

The best trumpet teachers teach that the lips need to vibrate and react to the different ranges on the horn and that they must be free to react to the speed and quantity of air that is coming up and over the tongue into the mouthpiece.

So, logically.... we need to be thinking along the same lines as trumpet players....we need our lips to vibrate and react to the air column passing into the mouthpiece....and, that air column has to go up and over the tongue, either picking up speed as the tongue arches up, or as the tongue is lower, the air speed is different as is the quantity of air entering the mouthpiece.

As for my journey, my high range is now solid and better than I could have dreamed about... (after 40 years of professional playing!).... because thanks to some teachers like Doug Elliott and Franz Hackl (NYC/Austrian trumpet player) they totally turned my brain around. (...I should have listened to my mother years ago, who was a vocal coach and couldn't figure out why I was told that the lips need to get tighter and tighter as you go higher....she said that doesn't make any sense!)

And, getting a mouthpiece rim that's correct for you particular face is more than half of it.

High range is impressive, but I'm even more amazed by those who can play all day.

Three sets of circus music, and still going strong. Playing those long evening gigs and still sounding good on high notes at the end of the night. Etc.

Endurance seems harder than high range to me.

timothy42b wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 6:03 am High range is impressive, but I'm even more amazed by those who can play all day.

Three sets of circus music, and still going strong. Playing those long evening gigs and still sounding good on high notes at the end of the night. Etc.

Endurance seems harder than high range to me.

They are absolutely 100% related. As in not different things at all.

A smart person I spent a lot of time with in college used to say "if you want endurance you have to endure." I used to think that meant you build muscular strength by continuing to work tired muscles (at least to a point), and that's not untrue. But the more important aspect of it is that you learn to play in a better way by learning how to do it when you ARE tired, when you CAN'T muscle it. When it HAS to be about using air and big muscles efficiently and effectively.

Arnold Jacobs famously said something like "Strength is your enemy; weakness is your friend."

Not to beat a dead horse, but let me take out my riding crop once again.

Cmillar wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 5:53 am Well... as trombone players, we can all learn a lot from our brothers and sisters who are trumpet players and teachers.

Absolutely. And they can learn from us, and we can learn from our tubist friends. And from our vocalist friends...

Cmillar wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 5:53 am the best all-round trumpet players with great high range never talk about 'closing the centre of the aperture' as if it was a camera lens becoming a smaller and smaller hole for the air to go through.

I don't know if I'd go that far. A short internet search led me to several examples by seemingly excellent trumpet players stating this. While we can certainly point out that for some players it might seem like they barely have enough room inside the mouthpiece for the lips to vibrate, the reality is that the aperture does become smaller as a brass musician ascends (and plays softer, but we can leave that aside for now). This is true for tuba and trumpet.

To say that it's "never" good to discuss something that reflects reality, even if great players are prone to ignore it, is forcing everyone again into the same round hole. For some players it can be the correct thought process in order to learn to access their high range.

GabrielRice wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 6:25 am But the more important aspect of it is that you learn to play in a better way by learning how to do it when you ARE tired, when you CAN'T muscle it. When it HAS to be about using air and big muscles efficiently and effectively.

I like this, to a degree. I know that Gabe is not suggesting that we practice to embouchure collapse. Again, it can come down to the individual player. For a very experienced musician who already has a pretty good handle on proper technique it should help reinforce that technique. But for a musician who is already playing a little off, they can rely on something that's potentially injury inducing when they reach the point of fatigue.

GabrielRice wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 6:25 am Arnold Jacobs famously said something like "Strength is your enemy; weakness is your friend."

Unless the overall form is already too weak.

I don't think any of the advice I have been quibbling about in this thread is "bad advice." What I do want to point out is that sometimes advice is simply wrong for a particular situation, particularly when it's already vague or phrased in an absolute. To reiterate, I think a lot of the advice that Dana was ranting about can be interpreted similarly - just wrong for a situation that reflects our own experiences. Some of it is just ignorant and can and be called out for it, but it's probably better if we can do so without falling into the same trap.

Advice from the internet is like the weather, to paraphrase. Some of it is good, some of it is band, and sometimes a rainy day is good for the garden.

Dave

GabrielRice wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 6:25 am

timothy42b wrote: Tue Nov 25, 2025 6:03 am High range is impressive, but I'm even more amazed by those who can play all day.

Three sets of circus music, and still going strong. Playing those long evening gigs and still sounding good on high notes at the end of the night. Etc.

Endurance seems harder than high range to me.

They are absolutely 100% related. As in not different things at all.

A smart person I spent a lot of time with in college used to say "if you want endurance you have to endure." I used to think that meant you build muscular strength by continuing to work tired muscles (at least to a point), and that's not untrue. But the more important aspect of it is that you learn to play in a better way by learning how to do it when you ARE tired, when you CAN'T muscle it. When it HAS to be about using air and big muscles efficiently and effectively.

Arnold Jacobs famously said something like "Strength is your enemy; weakness is your friend."

Yes... re-inforced by talking to a trumpet friend last week (Franz Hackl, NYC; plays long demanding gigs on lead trumpet or in demanding situations where he has to play with Dave Taylor, John Clark, and other notable brass monsters who know when someone is 'cutting it'.)

Franz says he always tells his students that when playing a long gig and feeling fatigued, that they should focus on the embouchure support from the corners, don't even think about what's going on 'inside the rim' except the thought of making sure the lips are free to vibrate as they need to, and to keep the air column of support always there (support...not blowing the horn apart)...(same advice as Dave Taylor for trombone)

Franz plays is constantly playing a variety of trumpets and mouthpieces, but says he doesn't change his thinking at all between the different horns. One of his main teachers and influences was the late great Lou Soloff.

Cmillar wrote: Mon Dec 01, 2025 8:35 am Franz says he always tells his students that when playing a long gig and feeling fatigued, that they should focus on the embouchure support from the corners, don't even think about what's going on 'inside the rim' except the thought of making sure the lips are free to vibrate as they need to, and to keep the air column of support always there (support...not blowing the horn apart)...(same advice as Dave Taylor for trombone)

This is solid advice, but I'm going to again play devil's advocate again.

First, advising players to focus on embouchure support from the corners isn't exactly advocating that "weakness is your friend." Instead, Hackl seems to be advocating for putting the effort in the proper area. To refer back to the smile embouchure situation I mentioned earlier, when the corners get tired there is often a tendency for some players to allow them to draw back. Building strength in that muscle area helps them keep them in the correct place. Under this situation the player may absolutely feel that in order to play high (with endurance) that developing strength is the key.

The other area where I wouldn't be so absolute is "don't even think about" what's happening inside the rim. Back when I first changed to an upstream embouchure it was quite helpful for me to think about what was going on inside the rim. I got away from that as I improved with my new embouchure and it became more automatic, but a while back I had a lesson with Doug where he brought this up. I've been trying to keep a mental "eye" on what I'm doing inside the rim when I get tired, because I have a certain habit that works against me when I get tired (drawing my lower lip in too far).

To use mouth corners as another example, I have the opposite tendency as a smile embouchure, I bring them in too far towards the rim. To counter this I will sometimes try to feel as if I'm smiling to ascend, a suggestion that again I got from Doug. If I were to advise someone on the internet, out of this context, to smile to ascend that would be bad advice. But under the right circumstances, this could be quite helpful.

Again, my quibbles in this topic are simply to point out how the language we use, often devoid of appropriate context, can make excellent advice wrong for the situation. Or conversely, how something that seems like bad advice can be correct under certain circumstances.


Dave

Wilktone wrote: Mon Dec 01, 2025 10:50 am
Again, my quibbles in this topic are simply to point out how the language we use, often devoid of appropriate context, can make excellent advice wrong for the situation. Or conversely, how something that seems like bad advice can be correct under certain circumstances.

Yes... even brass guru/teachers say the same things using different terminologies or different analogies and metaphors, which can get confusing.

The only 'bad advice' I'd say there is (as far a going for the high range on a brass instrument) is the teaching of how the lips inside the rim must: "be like a camera lens when focusing...high notes come from a 'pin-hole' in the centre of the lips, and low notes come from a 'larger whole' in the centre of the lips".

Maybe that works for some players? All the more power to them if that imagery works.

But I apologize to any former students of mine for having used that analogy over the years. It sure never did me any good, and just lead to too much tension before playing anything at all.

I've done well as far as 'making it' and 'playing the part' as far as playing at a professional level in all genres of music.

I know that when the pressure was really on in some exposed situations, I mentally let all 'imagery of physicality' disappear and said to myself "just focus on the music...hear the note...sing it!...play it!...don't forget to breath!"

I had to do that, because my training of 'get the small pin-hole ready for the high notes' was self-defeating. And, too small a mouthpiece wasn't letting anything happen that needed to happen.

Moral of story: the wrong sized mouthpiece rim on my small bore (and large bore) for my face was a hindrance all these years. That's probably the greatest single game-changer for most of us mortals.

And then we have another problem. When people relate that a given method or thought process didn't work for them, others conclude that the given method does not work.

When I, as a trumpet player heard the imagery of using a regular straw for low notes and a cocktail straw aperture opening for high notes, it made it all obvious to me. I have recommended the video where the teacher explained this to others. I like the "camera lens when focusing" concept.

Is this a method in a vacuum? No. There are many things going on at the same time. But the concept is valid as small aperture and large aperture and everything in between obviously works for many people.

Cmillar wrote: Tue Dec 02, 2025 6:08 am The only 'bad advice' I'd say there is (as far a going for the high range on a brass instrument) is the teaching of how the lips inside the rim must: "be like a camera lens when focusing...high notes come from a 'pin-hole' in the centre of the lips, and low notes come from a 'larger whole' in the centre of the lips".

Your path was different from others'. For you, this advice was wrong for you. But I find it interesting that a description of what actually is happening with the aperture can be "bad advice." As teachers, we have to try to adjust on the fly with our advice as students take things too far, not far enough, or just struggle to understand or make something work.

Richard3rd wrote: Tue Dec 02, 2025 8:26 am And then we have another problem. When people relate that a given method or thought process didn't work for them, others conclude that the given method does not work.

Yes. And often those people then conclude that the given method is bad advice. Or vice versa.

Dave

I’ve read most of this thread and agree with a lot of it, but I’m thinking that the issue of unknown players giving questionable advice about how to play high notes—notes they can’t play themselves—is really just a step in their own developmental process, a sort of guarantee for eventually being able to play higher notes themselves. They’re probably just passing on what they’ve heard, and that’s likely why it isn’t based on personal experience.

Do you have to be able to play really high notes yourself to have credibility when teaching others how to play high notes? I suppose it helps if you want people to listen—but then what counts as “high notes”? Is it enough to be able to play a high F with control after a three- or four-hour dance gig, or do you need to have the Bb above that to be credible?

To me, the teacher’s ability to personally demonstrate what they’re teaching has a huge impact on credibility. Unfortunately, a common problem is that many who can do it don’t know how to explain what they’re doing in a way others can understand. That’s a completely different skill set, often tied to personal qualities. A teacher must be able to read the student and adjust and adapt the information accordingly. That might mean anything from teaching the student how they learn best to giving concrete advice.

I think there’s nothing that can replace the physical, in-person meetings between a good teacher and their student. Learning to play trombone just from reading will never be as effective—although for some, it might be the only option. My advice in that case is to watch videos instead. Watch videos of Bill Watrous and others playing. There are so many close-up clips to learn from, especially of jazz trombonists.

/Tom

A trumpet player I play with on occasion explained how many greats do what he called yoga breathing daily, and noted how healthy brass players can be when we get control of our air. An anecdote before returing to the friend's advice:
I have had several injuries where I will feel like I am playing really well and then soon, I find myself at risk or actually injuring my lip muscles. He explained how important air was to him this way-- If my air isn't working my lips won't last 5 minutes.

So aside from being careful what type of buzz I get, what ease of flexibility I experience, and how I avoid overplaying, my primary focus is on adequate breath control.

How do we define and triangulate what it means to breathe correctly? Breathing in and out several times before an entrance has really helped me to activate good air when I am feeling like it is about to fail me.

On to the topic at hand.

When I instruct students who come to work on high range, I can identify in their playing, often in a different articulation, note length, release several notes below where they fail.

Students who want to play that next high note, as another commenter said--- work on the midtange first. Well lets find their moderately upper mid range note where their air is working well, and insist on correct note shapes as they attempt to ascend.

Wondering if anyone also has a method to describing note shapes and how they can help identify weaknesses before note failure they'd like to reply.

I have mine but it has been a personal jorney for so long I want to hear a common response since mine is pretty niche.

Thanks

Jeremy McLeroy

harrisonreed wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 8:09 pm While likening the tiny fine motor musculature in the face to the muscles in your quads like you can build them through weight training is folly (you wouldn't lift weights to learn how to use chopsticks or do the Vulcan salute), I don't think it is necessarily correct to dismiss building the mid and low range to make the upper register easier.

Don't forget that most of the people who stress over the upper register and place an inordinate value on it can't play to begin with in any register. It is better to build the mid register first.

JeremyMcLeroy wrote: Wed Dec 10, 2025 6:08 pm :Wondering if anyone also has a method to describing note shapes and how they can help identify weaknesses before note failure they'd like to reply.

I've had teachers describe note shapes before, but not in the context of playing in the upper register (to my recollection). I can see how the "shape" of the notes in the middle or lower register can help give us clues as to why the upper register might be difficult, though. For example, some students will start their pitches with a "twa" sound at the beginning of the notes which could indicate that they're not getting their chops and air into position at the beginning of the attack. It seems that would make it more difficult to attack and sustain an upper register note.

Is that along the lines of what you're thinking?

JeremyMcLeroy wrote: Wed Dec 10, 2025 6:08 pm So aside from being careful what type of buzz I get, what ease of flexibility I experience, and how I avoid overplaying, my primary focus is on adequate breath control.

So just to reiterate my major point throughout this thread, there's absolutely nothing wrong with focus on breathing. However, that isn't going to fix every student's upper register. It comes down to whether or not other factors are already set up for success.

Dave

I think playing the high register properly is a process. There's misinformation on the topic because of lack of knowledge and/or lack of experience/training. And maybe some others. .
Each individual comes with talents and weaknesses. That's why experience/training is important. And that's what makes the process different for each individual.
Yet, there are good explanations and bad explanations. Correct explanations and wrong explanations. And that's why I believe knowledge is very important. And maybe the rant is justified .

From my experience (I'm not a professional and don't have great achievements with the trombone), I believe that to get to play in the high range properly, you have to train properly (properly = with knowledge) - with a lot of good sense, even when you think you do it properly. If you are blessed with a good and knowledgeable teacher, then the process is sped up a lot, normally. If you don't have a teacher (only books and yourself), you have to understand that you're making mistakes.
For me, to settle these things clear in my head, the following contributed a lot:
- I've read the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System by Donald Reinhardt,
- I've read some posts of Dave Wilktone (I think he has valuable information about embouchure on his site)
- I had one meeting with Doug Elliott (via Skype) in which he presented me the overall embouchure information, diagnosed me (the embouchure movement category let's say), corrected some aspects and gave me one exercise for warm up - this was about 40-50 minutes.
Of all these things, the meeting with Doug Elliott was the most powerful one and the one which shed the most light on the topic for me - I think. Maybe because I've read on the topic before, I was able to ingest better the information he provided.

N.B. I think that reading the Encyclopedia of the Pivot System helped me to see that there can be a very solid and reasonable approach to embouchure topic. And that this topic has to be personalized, to each individual.

This is my experience up to this point.

Coming back to the rant. I believe that a good way to counter the misinformation is to give proper information: as accurate as possible, as contextualized as possible - as much as it is possible . But this is a society/community process. At the end of the day, knowledge is cumulative. We all make mistakes. But it is important to admit them and correct them. .

Just my thoughts,
Andrei M.

tbdana wrote: Tue Nov 18, 2025 7:04 pm I'm so tired of people seeking help online about how to play in the upper register, and getting all manner of nonsense and actively harmful advice from people who do not have good upper registers and who do not know what the hell they are doing. I don't know why those even folks try to "help." They're actually hurting people, making it harder for them.

Certinaly there's a lot of Dunning-Kruger effect going on in these situations. People think they have wisdom to offer, but they actually don't know enough to know that they don't know enough to be able to teach or help others.

I won't ramble on.

/rant

I followed the history of internet, youtube. Dana is spot on. So many suspect people want to be professors and gives advices. What surprise me is how many there is. Never search trumpet advices….