What makes it a doubling bass bone?

[DCIsky]

This thread absolutely exploded BEFORE the OP could tell us the extent of their doubling work, or even the genre that they’re playing in.

There are a lot of settings (wind band particularly) that seem to call for an *inoffensive* bass trombone sound. My personal impression is that ensemble directors say that they’re looking for a “dark” sound, but in reality they want an inoffensive sound that doesn’t change color or stick it one bit. That is, until you’re practically burying the ensemble in pure decibels. In college, all the meatheads feed into this and get massive setups that sound like dull tubas unless Wagner or Bruckner is on the stand. But, most places for doublers to start out (like big band) are perfectly okay with the edge.

If the OP is not in a musical setting that requires them to play a slide tuba, most inexpensive (vintage) horns will be fine, especially to start out with.

[TomInME]

The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?

[Digidog]

Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.

9½" bell too, most likely.

Why would it have to be those specs?

The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?

[Burgerbob]

Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.

9½" bell too, most likely.

Why would it have to be those specs?

The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

[WGWTR180]

The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?

Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.

[WGWTR180]

Why would it have to be those specs?

The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

Have to agree with BB on this one.

[JohnL]

Probably a single bore, rotors, maybe a 1 leadpipe. I wouldn't read too much into it.

9½" bell too, most likely.

Why would it have to be those specs?

The most important property of a horn would be how it fits the player, regardless of in what role it's played, right?

Note the words "probably" and "likely". Neither of us said that it has to be those specs; my prediction was based on an expectation that the OP, coming to bass trombone after "playing tenor for a long time" would most likely end up with a "middle of the road" sort of configuration.

You'll also notice that Aidan said:

I wouldn't read too much into it.

[LeTromboniste]

Just my personal experience, which is only worth very little. The basses I could most easily switch to and just play, as a primarily tenor player, sometimes without having played bass for a while, were a Benge 290, and a couple of Yamaha (613H, and 612).

[WGWTR180]

Just my personal experience, which is only worth very little. The basses I could most easily switch to and just play, as a primarily tenor player, sometimes without having played bass for a while, were a Benge 290, and a couple of Yamaha (613H, and 612).

Good choices!

[hyperbolica]

I really wish someone, even someone like Wessex, would build an actual small bass. Everything has been ground into this particular rut of something that is speced like a Bach 50. Let's say there was something with the acoustic properties of a King dual bore 1480 with 2 valves and decent ergo setup. THAT would be a doubling horn.

Wessex makes a 7b clone, the Stearns bass, and a "Super Tenor". At one point they prototyped a dual valve 42b-ish horn which was fantastic, but I think it needed a bit of bell taper help.

There is I think a B&S instrument that comes close, but I've never played it. There was the Olds P24G which had bad ergo and funky valves. Of course the 1480, which lacks a low C (and B) and is another ergo nightmare. Others come close like the Holton tr159.

The advantages of a 1480 based bass would be:
- lighter
- just smaller = easier to transport, hold, see the music, etc
- smaller bores = less of an air hog
- actually sounds and feels like a trombone

The specs would be in the ballpark of:
- ~536/547 dual bore slide
- two valves
- bass taper tuning slide
- bass taper bell
- ~9" bell

Another option would be a bass modeled on the same idea as the Yamaha 350c:
- 1480 bore slide
- C ascending valve
- regular F valve
- 7 position slide (to get the low E)
- post-valve tapers like a regular bass

[WGWTR180]

It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.

[Burgerbob]

It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.

^ Yup. A tweener bass will sound like... a tweener bass. I'm about to put this to test with a double valve bass valve section with a 45 and 1485 bell. I don't think it'll sound like a bass.

Also, even the Olds basses (S22, S24, P22, P24) are real bass sized and sound like it.

[hyperbolica]

It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.

Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.

[BGuttman]

It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.

Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.

My G-bass never really sounded like a bass trombone. Perhaps compared to a British pea shooter, but not even compared with a bunch of student bore horns.

What constitutes a proper sized bass could be somewhat context sensitive. In an orchestra with 0.547" bore tenors, you need a relatively large instrument. In a jazz band with 0.500" tenors something much smaller or lighter built could be perfect (after all, Bart Varsalona was playing a King Symphony with Kenton). For concert band and pit orchestra something in between might be best.

[WGWTR180]

It should be all about the sound. Hard to achieve and accept on a bore size that you suggest.

Ok, the "sound" of the 1480. You can get a bass sound on a smaller bore. The 1480 was small, G basses were much smaller. "Bass" doesn't have to mean 562 or larger.

One can settle for the sound on a small bore if they desire.

[Digidog]

Note the words "probably" and "likely". Neither of us said that it has to be those specs; my prediction was based on an expectation that the OP, coming to bass trombone after "playing tenor for a long time" would most likely end up with a "middle of the road" sort of configuration.

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

I only asked since your answers to the OP were quick and seemed so self-evident in their ascertations, and I, who has not paid much attention to instrument and mouthpiece specifications as long as they work, found that the Conn 62 I subsequently bought was the easiest for me out of all the horns I tried, and it is dual bore, fairly large belled and with large, open valves.

In my experience, I have never been able to draw a straight line between a smaller, straight bore and a smaller bell and easy playing. The general statistics maybe says that's the case, but I have not heard it expressed like this, nor have I experienced it like that either. Of course I sense and experience differences between single or dual bore, various sizes and valves, but to from there equal any specific configuration to be easier to play hasn't been my experience - this far and to the extent of the number of horns I have played, of course.

I don't read too much into this matter, as @Burgerbob recommended, but I couldn't help asking if your statements were of a general experience or some statistic recommendations that I never had heard of.

I guess it all boils down to the eternal question of what makes a horn great to play for a specific person.

[Burgerbob]

It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.

[blast]

It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.

Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.

[elmsandr]

It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.

Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.

Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!

But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+

Cheers,
Andy

[Burgerbob]

It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.

Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.

[Fruitysloth]

It's easy for most people to play a big horn with a dual bore and sound wide. Not many can do it with a real pitch center, though.

Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.

Bass doubler here with a Shires Q axial bass. I play a 1 1/4 sized mouthpiece and still feel like it's too much horn for me on occasions. If I play some tuba the morning of the gig I feel a bit better about myself.

[TomInME]

The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?

Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.

That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.

[TomInME]

Now that's a very true statement. Also, a lot of people think they sound good on a big setup, when they really don't.

Moderator! I’m in these pictures and I don’t like it!

But really, when I’m not seriously working on my playing on the horn; the big valves and dual bore can get ugly if I slip. And I’m a bass player 95%+

Cheers,
Andy

Same - and I'm a bass player 99%+!

My annoyance with these threads is players who don't seem to be at the pinnacle of tenor bone performance thinking their time and money is best spend getting a bass. There are some benefits to learning about other instruments, but actually devoting enough time to get good on them means less time for your primary. Players who double well spend lots of time on both, or are extremely high-level on one before devoting time to the other. But most owners-of-a-double don't spend enough time on either.

[WGWTR180]

Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.

That's the one scenario that calls for a true double - and it's the result of financial constraints, not a compositional ideal.

Well not the only one. Recording sessions for movies. Orchestra Concerts of a certain composers music that calls for doubling. Not to mention doubling on tuba.

[pfrancis]

The thread is also not asking the obvious question: if you're primarily a tenor player, why get a bass at all? If something calls for bass trombone, shouldn't a bass trombonist play it?

Well here's a scenario. I played a full time Broadway show for 21 years-all on bass trombone. However many of the current shows in New York as well as the Broadway National Tours have books that require both tenor and bass to be played at a high level. When this first began many of the doubles one way or the other were "gift" doubles possibly granted to a musician in New York that had some clout and were able to change the orchestrator's mind about what was needed. Recently as pit musician sizes have diminished 1 trombone player doubling on tenor and bass has become more the norm and that player should be proficient on both. Some that I have recently performed: Back to the Future, MJ the Musical, and Some Like it Hot, and Wicked all double on Tenor and Bass. SO in this particular scenario musicians double.

Well, in all but one of the shows Bill mentioned I will also have played the touring shows (in Balt/DC) this year. I spent many years as a tenor only player, and bought a 613H when a great opportunity arose (2017? 2018?) and began practicing. I would not describe myself as a “bass trombonist” but a competent doubler now (years later).

Living in Balt/DC area there are lots of fantastic players (military bandsmen, NSO, BSO, etc) so I consider myself fortunate to play in these settings with some fantastic musicians. When “Suffs” comes to town next year I have been hired to play that one on Trombone/Euphonium. As a resident in the area with the most professional euph players (anywhere?) I am acutely aware of their talents and yet, here I am playing a trombone book with a euphonium double. As a freelance professional I will do the necessary work to put myself in a position to succeed and I would hope anyone doubling would do the same.

I like my 613H, plays well in tune and is “easy” to play given a little more efficiency from the rotors. Like it better than 830/835s I have played thus far. I don’t prefer thayers in bass land (despite playing one for 20ish years on tenor), perhaps too open for me.

[sf105]

you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2729379 ... 5266017629

[blast]

you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2729379 ... 5266017629

Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.

[sf105]

you mean something like this? I'm so tempted.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2729379 ... 5266017629

Resist, resist. Music for small bass outside of big band etc. Almost never has need of two valves. Nobody will believe it's a small bass either.

Not likely to happen. But I expect people will see all the valves and accept it as a bass, and that second valve will be handy for those running passages around low Bb.

Both of us have used our Conn 14H's as a small bass, so I imagine it's a similar concept to that?


Didn't Stu Dempster add a second valve to his 88H? But then he had some unusual requirements.

[tromboneVan]

This instrument can be made to be a small bass trombone, and as a double bell modular horn. Built by Rath



Stephen Menotti, current trombonist of MusikFabrik has a similar set up. It looks to be a Conn 112h valve section, with tenor bell, and slide, and it can be played with the double bell configuration as well. I would say it is more of a very unique tweener set up than an actual bass, but this brings to question the concept of what a doubling bass is to begin with.

[Leanit]

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.

[hyperbolica]

This instrument can be made to be a small bass trombone, and as a double bell modular horn. Built by Rath

...

Oh, hold it. He said his tenor configured as a double trigger bass is especially useful in new music. Where's Elow?
[/quote]

[brtnats]

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.

+1. The best doubling bass is a bass that’s easy to play that sounds good and lets you be a bass player when you pick it up. For me, that means a dependent with rotors, single bore slide, tighter leadpipe, 9.5 inch bell. And I play it as a single every time I can.

[WGWTR180]

The easiest to play (for someone unused to bass) setup.

Exactly. This isn't complicated. If you're somebody who spends the majority of your time on tenor but occasionally find yourself hired for a show that has some bass bone or euphonium, you want versions of those horns that feel familiar to your tenor to hold and blow, even if they aren't things you play often.

The only thing I’ll disagree with is “familiar to your tenor” part. Just needs to be an instrument that responds easily.

[Pezza]

I have a King 5B
.545 bore, 9" bell. Trigger pulls to a flat E!
Definitely a bass, not a tenor.
Used to play a Bach 50, had to downsize due to injury. Would love to try a 45!

[slidesix]

OP hasn’t been back to this thread. Oshkosher, did you ever get out to Edward’s? If so, what kit did they have ready for you to demo? I figure that might answer the question.

Edwards doubtless has successfully fitted many “doublers”. And based on try outs, sales, and long term happiness I bet they have a decent idea of what sort of “typical” horn keeps the “typical” doubler happy and successful. They seem like a successful business with both customer and non custom horns. So surely they have experience here.

I think finetales has the right idea here. Since I don’t know what Edwards has in mind I need to guess. My guess is a successful “doublers bass trombone” is one that takes less INPUT to be successful. Easy to play

What does Input mean here? Could be less quirks. Could be less daily or monthly practice time to maintain that success. Could be less air or less athleticism. Could even be less money. Requiring less of all or any of those are valuable to a doubler. And sales is about creating value. It could even be a full custom horn but with all of the middle-of-the-road options. Whatever it is I’d guess it is easy to play.

What finetales said.

[Posaunus]

OP hasn’t been back to this thread. Oshkosher, did you ever get out to Edward’s? If so, what kit did they have ready for you to demo? I figure that might answer the question.

Good question. I had to scroll through endless posts on my phone to find the original, which was July 29 - Oshkosher's one and only. It's now August 17. How about an update from Oshkosher?

[oshkosher]

OP update: Rather than going straight to Edwards, I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha). I noticed huge differences between the horns. I didn't like my tone on the Eterna; it seems small and too edgy. The Edwards (a dual-bore) felt like I just didn't have enough air to fill up the horn, and the second trigger was way too far from my fingers to reach easily. The Shires was nice, but the Yamaha YBL-835 was easier to play in multiple ways. The triggers fit my hands much better, the tone resonated easily without tons of air, and compared to the Shires notes slotted much more precisely when I had both triggers in.

So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.

Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site

What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.

[tbonesullivan]

So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.

Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site

What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.

Those are nice horns! I would suggest you start with a Yamaha 58 or 59. If I recall, the stock mouthpiece that comes with the YBL-835 is HUGE.

[oshkosher]

It came with a 61D4L mouthpiece, an absolute bucket compared to the Hammond 12ML I use on my tenor.

[dbwhitaker]

I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha).

What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.

[WGWTR180]

OP update: Rather than going straight to Edwards, I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha). I noticed huge differences between the horns. I didn't like my tone on the Eterna; it seems small and too edgy. The Edwards (a dual-bore) felt like I just didn't have enough air to fill up the horn, and the second trigger was way too far from my fingers to reach easily. The Shires was nice, but the Yamaha YBL-835 was easier to play in multiple ways. The triggers fit my hands much better, the tone resonated easily without tons of air, and compared to the Shires notes slotted much more precisely when I had both triggers in.

So, I got the Yamaha, and I'm having a great time with it. After I've built some bass experience on it I'll try some other horns again. It sounds like Yamaha horns are respected well enough that I should be able to sell it if I grow out of it.

Now I have to decide what mouthpiece to use on it, and something tells me there are a plethora of opinions about that on this site

What am I using the horn for? I'm not a pro, and I don't have a regular group. This is just for my own fun, and to have an extra tool in my bag if and when I do find a regular group. I've got a goal of being competent enough on it to play it in some ensembles at Humboldt brass chamber music workshop next year.

Very nice instrument to play!! Outgrow it? We don't rally outgrow them but one's tastes can change with time. Enjoy.

[oshkosher]

I found a local shop with a nice selection of bass trombones (Shires, Getzen Eterna, Edwards, Yamaha).

What shop did you go to? It's hard to find a shop with a nice selection of bass trombones.

Chuck Levin's, near Silver Spring MD.