"Supportive" Lessons

[tbdana]

Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?

A good question for each of us!

[ryant]

Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?

Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?

Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?

Somewhere in between?

Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?

Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.

Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?

[brassmedic]

Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?

Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?

Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?

Somewhere in between?

Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?

Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.

Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?

I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.

[robcat2075]

[EDIT]
NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

The following passage was quoted to serve as context, as an example of the all-or-nothing dicision which many commenters often apply to the hypothetical trombone students discussed in this thread.

It is not meant to suggest that brassmedic is the only person to ever to omit discussion of the many other students in between the "all" and the "nothing". It is but one example.

[/EDIT]

...a grade school beginning trombone student...a college student who intends to have a career as a performer.

There is a substantial middle ground that college teachers need to be prepared for... the college player who doesn't want a career as a performer, yet is taking private lessons.

At my under graduate school certainly more than half of our top concert band were not music majors at all. They were business, science, engineering, pre-law... and especially pre-med majors who had been counseled that to get into the "dream" graduate school they wanted to get into they needed to show they were more than just another 4.0 GPA.

Call them "resume padders" if you want, but it did work for several of my friends including two pediatricians, a heart surgeon, several nurses, a veterinarian, a lawyer, and a trombone player who did very well for himself as a geologist at an oil company.

They were all able players and some of them were stunningly good. But at the same time it was difficult for them to keep woodshedding on that horn among all the other difficult things they had to do.

My point is... if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them, "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."


[EDIT]
ADDITIONAL NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

The "you" and "you're" in this passage are intended as plural not singular:

if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them...

Furthermore,

...sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician.

is a paraphrase, not an exact quote from brassmedic's original post.

The original statement was:

If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.

[/EDIT]

[ryant]

Not trying to be elusive, but I'm not sure this context really matters. I was just curious how all you fine people felt about this. I've never really thought about wanting a lesson where a teacher focuses only on what I'm doing well, but I did want to know how you all felt about it.

Did I catch a King of the Hill reference in your question?

I think it matters a lot. Some people are answering your question from the point of view of a grade school beginning trombone student, where it would make sense to me to be encouraging so that the student stays interested in music and doesn't become discouraged and give up. Others are answering from the point of view of a college student who intends to have a career as a performer. In that case, I think there's little to be gained by giving a student false hope that they are progressing at a sufficient rate to make it in an extremely tough business. If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.

Ok, fair enough. I'm just a simple man, trying to make my way in the universe. Middle aged family man, former military musician. Started playing in the early 90's. I've played some jazz, some rock. Played a couple gigs with some orchestras. Taught private lessons to jr high and high school students. Did some brass teaching at the high school level. Traveled the world.

Was super cocky in my youth. I let my playing define me. Kinda ruined music for me, that led me to put the horn away for a long time.

Took about a decade off of playing, just now getting back into it.

I've recently asked some people to mentor me in non-musical pursuits. I've come to understand the value of knowing your strengths. Was curious if anyone here thought there was value in getting a clear picture of their strengths from a trusted teacher, not every lesson, but like a once in a while thing. Not trying to say we should tell people who suck at trombone that they're gonna be the next Larry Wiehe. But there is great value in knowing your strengths.

Not looking to argue or even debate anyone. I am honestly just curious if people here would find value in having a single lesson where a teacher focuses only on what you're doing well.

[brassmedic]

...a grade school beginning trombone student...a college student who intends to have a career as a performer.

There is a substantial middle ground that college teachers need to be prepared for... the college player who doesn't want a career as a performer, yet is taking private lessons.

At my under graduate school certainly more than half of our top concert band were not music majors at all. They were business, science, engineering, pre-law... and especially pre-med majors who had been counseled that to get into the "dream" graduate school they wanted to get into they needed to show they were more than just another 4.0 GPA.

Call them "resume padders" if you want, but it did work for several of my friends including two pediatricians, a heart surgeon, several nurses, a veterinarian, a lawyer, and a trombone player who did very well for himself as a geologist at an oil company.

They were all able players and some of them were stunningly good. But at the same time it was difficult for them to keep woodshedding on that horn among all the other difficult things they had to do.

My point is... if you're going to teach them you're going to need better motivational chops than telling them, "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that. Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.

[bimmerman]

I take lessons because I want to get better, not be torn down.

Yep, this. there's a time and a place for being read for filth, but if it's consistent over many lessons, that will not help you get better. The best teachers I've had were able to tell me what I'm bad at and how to improve, not just that I'm bad at X.

I think there's also a world of difference between teaching for an aspiring pro vs a motivated amateur.

[JTeagarden]

Some essential context that is absent here is... What is ryant's position in the trombone world?

Is ryant an 8th grader at Tom Landry Middle School in Arlen Tx?

Is ryant a performance major at Das Nationalkonservatorium für Erstaunliche Posaunisten?

Somewhere in between?

Why is ryant playing the trombone at all? What is the goal?

Volltreffer.

You have to establish what someone's goals are, anf give them up-front guidance on just what that means in terms of your expectations of them.

I had a young woman who reported to me at a previous employer who wanted to be promoted ASAP, and so I told her that I would support her goal, but this meant being subject to a level of criticism she might find offputting (since the gap between "ist" and "soll" was quite big).

With that in mind, she endured a bit more "tough love" than she might have otherwise, if she hadn't been clear about her goals.

[robcat2075]

Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. First of all, I was talking about the demographic of music majors who intend to have a career as a performer, not non-majors who are learning trombone as a hobby. I thought I was pretty clear on that.

Yes, it was clear you were NOT talking about that large group of non-majors that no one is talking about... ones that also need to be considered.

That's why i quote you... to introduce the reason for my further comment.

No need to re-tread the ground you have already tread. I'm pointing to... an additional factor that needs to be considered, a factor that always seems to be omitted by everyone in these debates.

Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.

you said this:

If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.

None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.

[Crazy4Tbone86]

I have been a music educator for 39 years. I have taught all age levels…….elementary school through college. My private lesson students have varied in age from 7 to 89. Over the years, these small morsels of advice have probably been the best guidance for me:

*Remember the 90/10 rule (I have also heard it as the 80/20 rule). Always run every class, lesson or rehearsal with 90% positive statements and only 10% critical or negative statements. It is tough to do with some students, but makes for a much healthier learning environment.

*In a class or ensemble, always teach to the upper 1/3 of the group. People know if a teacher is “dumbing it down” and that can lead to an unmotivated group dynamic. A teacher can always explain/review things for clarification if a student or students inquire, but keep the content, expectations and flow of class/rehearsal aimed at the top 1/3 of the group. In most situations, the lower 2/3 will want to be part of something successful and work hard to reach that higher level.

*In one-on-one teaching, always have expectations that are one notch higher than the student is currently playing. If you are asking a student to do something routine (lip slur exercise, scale, etc…), always add an extra expectation that will elevate their playing. If you are saying,”I don’t know what to do with this student to make them better,” you should not be teaching that student.

*People inherently know when their time is being wasted. From young to old, musicians don’t want to just go through the motions or play music or in an ensemble that is beneath them. The teacher must make things interesting, engaging and challenging for the musician(s). If people are dropping out of a lesson program or an ensemble consistently, the educator must take a serious look within them self and figure out how to make their teaching a growing and learning process that is much more engaging.

[brassmedic]

NOTICE TO ALL TROMBONE PLAYERS ON LAND, SEA OR IN THE AIR, PRESENT AND FUTURE.

The following passage was quoted to serve as context, as an example of the all-or-nothing dicision which many commenters often apply to the hypothetical trombone students discussed in this thread.

It is not meant to suggest that brassmedic is the only person to ever to omit discussion of the many other students in between the "all" and the "nothing". It is but one example.

Setting aside your completely uncalled for snide tone, I did not omit anything, nor did I pretend it was an "all or nothing" situation. I simply gave two extreme examples of different scenarios under which people were responding to the OP. That's the whole POINT - that the situation matters when you are determining how to communicate with a student. I sure didn't expect to get brutally and sarcastically attacked for that.

(Me): Second, I never, ever, said anyone should say "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician." There are much better ways to get your point across.

you said this:

If they aren't good enough to make it as a professional musician, you're not doing them any favors by hiding that fact.

None-the-less I will amend my original post to clarify.

And then you edited the previous post to say you were "paraphrasing" me? I don't think you know what "paraphrase" means. In your mind, you can't see ANY middle ground between completely hiding the fact that your student needs to work on certain things, and bluntly telling them "sorry, but you're never going to make it as a professional musician."? There are literally hundreds of things you could say besides that. Thank god I had teachers who told me what I needed to work on, and didn't just ignore everything I was doing wrong. I never would have become a professional musician.

But thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post in the Tangents section. You just get attacked for daring to have an opinion on something, and often get attacked for things you didn't even say.

[tbdana]

But thanks for reminding me why I don't like to post in the Tangents section. You just get attacked for daring to have an opinion on something, and often get attacked for things you didn't even say.

Brad, there are really just one or two posters here who attack people, get snide, mischaracterize, and go passive-aggressive on people. I have those two set on "ignore," so I simply don't see their posts anymore, and I never have to grapple with whatever nonsense they say. Please consider putting offenders on ignore, and do please keep posting in Tangents. I, for one, value your posts, and I'd hate for them to go missing.

[Wilktone]

Such an interesting question, what sparked it?

I've taken and taught lessons that were more positive than others. As was mentioned earlier, music students can be pretty hard on themselves and we all can use a boost from time to time. I can recall an early lesson with my undergraduate teacher where we didn't play at all, but just talked about why I wanted to be a music major and what the pros and cons of a career as a musician would mean for me.

But I don't think I've ever taken or taught a lesson that was completely about what was already going well. A lesson, by definition, involves working to improve and that necessarily involves feedback on what is not working as well.

Of course "feedback" doesn't mean positive or negative, it can be either. "Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. It's often easier for teachers to slide into negative feedback, it takes some effort to frame suggestions in a positive way.

Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term. Sure, sometimes a criticism about what's not going well can light a fire under the student and lead to progress too, but the more this is the norm the less effective it will become long term.

Dave

[ryant]

The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.

[ghmerrill]

"Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. ...

Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.

That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback without positive guidance.

[tbdana]

"Don't slouch," is a negative approach, where "Sit up straight," would be a positive way to frame the same feedback. ...

Both are OK, but it's generally acknowledged these days that framing feedback in a positive way makes for better student progress in the long term.

That's because under this construal/illustration of "positive" and "negative", the negative comment tells you what NOT to do (I.e., what you're doing wrong), but not HOW to do what is right. Providing positive feedback (in the sense of saying what SHOULD be done (rather than just an amorphous comment like "You're doing x well." -- essentially just a vague encouraging pat on the head) is exactly the sort of guidance that the student should be getting from a genuine "teacher". But the "negative" comment is valuable as well -- to equally deter the student from developing or continuing bad habits. Two different sides of the teaching coin, each of which is necessary. Positive feedback without negative evaluation of error can be just as detrimental and confusing as negative feedback with positive guidance.

I prefer both. "Don't slouch. Stand up straight."

[ghmerrill]

I prefer both. "Don't slouch. Stand up straight."

I left out a rather critical preposition in my final sentence. Corrected now. (Someone should have provide that negative evaluation fairly quickly. )

[brassmedic]

The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.

Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953

[Posaunus]

Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953

Bart forgot to say "Good dog" as positive reinforcement.

[ryant]

The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.

Well I said I didn't want to post here anymore, but I couldn't resist. This is purely in jest, of course, but it reminded me of The Simpsons:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/v.comb.io/yK1Q ... 7860301953

Well I'm glad I could bring you back on a very light an much appreciated note!

[Wilktone]

The question probably sparked from me training my dog. He is very smart, and a lot of times I'll let him lead the training, as described by Mike Ritland. I will let him choose what to do, mark and reward the good things and ignore behaviors I don't want. We have learned many tricks and good behaviors this way. I feel the need to reiterate that I am not suggesting this as the only method of teaching, I was just curious if anyone else saw the benefit of doing something like this with our craft. Even if it was a one time thing.

Positive Behavioral Interventions and Support (PBIS) is an analogue to what you're describing in education. While there are critics of PBIS (some valid), it is an evidence-based approach and many schools, including the school district that hosts the El Sistema program I work for, use it.

One of the basic ideas is that when a student behaves well (think elementary school, which is the largest population the program I work for serves) you reward and reinforce that behavior. The emphasis is to prevent negative behaviors and reward good behaviors, rather than to discipline poor behavior (not that you don't ever discipline, but that is seen as a last resort).

One of the criticisms that I agree with is that utilizing PBIS tends to make the motivation to do well extrinsic (please the teacher or parents) rather than intrinsic (I want to do well because I enjoy this activity on its own merits). Probably less of an issue with your dog than with human students.

Note that PBIS is more of a classroom or school-wide approach, not really something I would necessarily try to implement in private lessons, although certain elements might be used. For example, you can reward a student for their hard practice the week prior by having a fun activity for the end of the lesson.

[brassmedic]

That's all very interesting. To me, there is an obvious difference between training a dog and teaching a trombone student. The dog isn't necessarily interested in the behavior it is being taught. A dog doesn't need or want to roll over, beg, sit, or lie down on command. So you are forcing it to associate the behavior with receiving a reward. Otherwise there would be no motivation. But a trombone student, at least in theory, is interested in learning to play the trombone, so there should be at least some intrinsic motivation that doesn't need to be implanted by linking it to an unrelated reward. And the self motivation increases the further the student progresses. For example, when I was a performance major in college, I very much wanted to become the best trombone player I could be, and I didn't need to rely on my teacher to motivate me. What do you think?

[CalgaryTbone]

There is some value in positive and negative feedback in learning an instrument. I don't think you would progress much if all of your instruction time focused on what you are doing well, because those elements don't need as much work as the stuff that's not going so well.

My teacher was tough on his students, but I never felt that it was cruel or mean-spirited. One thing about that teaching style was that when you would achieve the goal, he was also as animated in his praise as he had been in any criticism before. When he would say something like "that's it!" and "good job!", it really meant something. I would leave those lessons ready to take on the world.

Somewhat related to all of this discussion, I remember reading an article on teaching/practicing by Ray Mase (trumpet of the American Brass Quintet (retired) and Juilliard faculty). One thing that stuck with me was that he advocated setting aside about 15-20 minutes a day to play some music that you can play very well. His point was to first have some pure enjoyment in your practice, and second to try to bring all of those playing qualities that you enjoy in that music to the music where you needed to improve your skills. The best players make the tough stuff sound easy and some of that is not throwing away great tone and phrasing when playing their most difficult passages.

Jim Scott