6 Bass Trombones: How they sound and stack up

[harrisonreed]

King and Monster Bach. Yup yup yup. Blast be blasting the knowledge.

"Same result, half the effort" -- that is like the philosophy for every horn/mouthpiece combo I've tried to put together (bass aside, I only had a borrowed bass). When I try other people's stuff and they rave about how "open" it is, I have ask them what they think "open" means. "It takes all the air you can give", yeah but nothing comes out the other end. It's like an open black hole. I'm tanked after a few seconds on some of these setups.

My horns are open. They take all the air and then send sound out into the hall.

[BassBoneFL]

when you do another of these, as you will, try more time playing and less time talking as this video is more sonically illustrated opinions.

I was thinking the same thing as I watched/listened

[tbonesullivan]

"Same result, half the effort" -- that is like the philosophy for every horn/mouthpiece combo I've tried to put together (bass aside, I only had a borrowed bass). When I try other people's stuff and they rave about how "open" it is, I have ask them what they think "open" means. "It takes all the air you can give", yeah but nothing comes out the other end. It's like an open black hole. I'm tanked after a few seconds on some of these setups.

My horns are open. They take all the air and then send sound out into the hall.

I've never understood the "I need the most open mouthpiece / setup possible" idea. I got complements from my sound and projection when I was still playing my YBL-612 with a Faxx 1 1/2G, with the "tiny" .276" throat. It's a resonator not an air cannon, and I don't know where the "more air = more volume" thing came from. More vibration energy = more volume. Yes playing louder takes more air, but I can empty my lungs in about 1 second without buzzing even blowing through a 6 1/2AL.

Right now, I'm playing Pines of Rome, and it's a BLOW, and a major challenge to have enough air at all times to avoid letting any notes fade in dynamic. Efficiency is where it is at.

[TomRiker]

There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."

Which is why the Fender Precision is still the gold standard electric bass in the recording studio.

Yep! It's actually more about the mids than the bass.

[bassclef]

You have to blow Kings very differently. ...huge amounts of restraint. Same result with half the effort.

Totally agree. They also seem to prefer mouthpieces towards the smaller end of the spectrum as well, in my experience. I've found that "overpowering" a 6B or 7B with a large mouthpiece (both in terms of cup volume and throat size) produces exactly the results Finetales describes. I've also found that effect can be tamed somewhat with a heavier blank mouthpiece. I've spent considerable time on both of those models and found a Stork 1.5 to be a great match, for example. So much so, that I sent a couple of them to Bob Reeves to have the shanks altered for a better fit in those King receivers. (Anyone want those, by the way? I've reluctantly moved on from Kings due to ergonomic issues which I grew tired of throwing money at in attempt to solve them)

[Burgerbob]

Oh, and thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. I only wish you could all come listen in person.

I wasn't kidding about this- these all sound pretty different in person.

I won't say my phone mic lies. You can hear my bad phrasing, bad time, intonation problems, and inconsistency. But the details of the sound of each horn are represented in a strange way on the phone (Google Pixel 6). That's why I wax poetic about each horn, to give impressions of how they sound behind the horn, and also what others have said in person.

My new mic interface showed up last night... I just might make this video again but with a real microphone. I'll give that a test today.

[ithinknot]

Make whatever kind of video you want, and talk as much as you want. You're doing this for fun (and all that sweet sweet ad money). And you already provided the timestamps so anyone can skip the chat if they wish.

I agree that the King sounded good in this recording, and if you and Finetales say that it's shouty and a bit 2D in person then that sonically illustrated opinion has some value too.

Even if you make pure faux-scientific demos, you'll get the usual objections - the mic doesn't capture the full impression, your house isn't a good or relevant acoustic, each horn deserves a different mouthpiece, equal practice time and an optimized mic placement, etc etc - all of which are true but boring.

[modelerdc]

Get a hold of a YSL 421G, and if you like it put the 421G bell on the 613, and you'll wind up with a very good commercial horn.

There's something to be said for a horn that's easy to play. No matter how much you like the sound of a horn, there's a point where you can get better results with one that's easier to play. I remember the Miraphone and Alexander tubas that were popular when I was in college have largely been replaced with York style piston tubas. The older tubas had great sounds, lots of character, but the newer tubas a just easier to get results on. I feel the same way about some vintage bass trombones. The best of the newer ones are just easier to get consistent results over the range, including dynamics than the old ones. For this reason I've sold off most of my older Conn, Holton, and Bach instruments.

[slidefunk]

Hey Aiden,

To my ears, the B&S has the most character out of any of the horns and it's not even close. Beautiful sounding instrument!

The Shires is probably the most versatile of the bunch, those 7 bells can really do it all. You see a lot of Shires out in the field these days, would fit in most sections. Two piece bell vs the one pieces you are normally drawn to. Sweeter, more dialed in.

Your monster has good character and a broad sound, but seems to be a bit dynamically limited. Might be ideal for certain romantic repertoire?

The other horns, IMHO, are unremarkable. The King and Yamaha would be fine, affordable options for someone looking for a double. I did not care for the Bach at all.

My two cents. Cheers!

[Burgerbob]

Who's ready for some so-so recordings?

I have some here I took today with my world class SM57 and Focusrite setup in my acoustically perfect studio.

I got out the Curran, 7B, and B&S today (the 7B is getting sold tomorrow!), plus one mystery horn in the Cimeras. There's an extra Cimera with one of the horns again, this time with a different mouthpiece. See if you can figure out what is what.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

[MAliesch]

Were they recorded back to back? Sounds like you're more familiar with the pieces in the later numbers.


Favorites for me:

Arbans 2, on account of the attacks

Cimera 5, due to evenness in tone between registers (even though it sounds a bit like a leaky horn/valves)

And Jazz 3, because it sounds more like you're playing the music, rather than just the notes, if that makes sense. Maybe just having more fun, or it's less work for you.

[Elow]

What is Cimera 5??? I hear valves, contra?

[EriKon]

Who's ready for some so-so recordings?

I have some here I took today with my world class SM57 and Focusrite setup in my acoustically perfect studio.

I got out the Curran, 7B, and B&S today (the 7B is getting sold tomorrow!), plus one mystery horn in the Cimeras. There's an extra Cimera with one of the horns again, this time with a different mouthpiece. See if you can figure out what is what.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Very nice.

For Jazz I definitely prefer examples 1 and 2 soundwise which are surprisingly similar to me (on mobile speakers). 3 seems to back off a little there and for some of the runs it seems like you have to fight more on that version. Also the sound might be too woofy for a bigband context for example. The other two examples have more brightness and some more punch.

Arban sounds great on No 3, very full sound but clear articulation. Articulation seems to back off on No. 1 there.

I haven't listened to all Cimeras, but I also like the sound of No 3 there.

[MTbassbone]

Arbans-2
Cimera- tie between 2 and 4
Jazz- 2

[blast]

Arban 2 sounded best overall to me...real trombone sound. Camera 1 was worst for sound ...very tubby.

[MStarke]

Jazz - 1 (with 2 being a close second)
Arban - 1 although articulations seemed to be a bit more challenging
Cimera - I liked 1, 2 and 3. All different, but no real favorite for me

What's interesting is that preferences expressed here are of course not just focusing on very isolated aspects, but all seem to take sound, articulation, intonation, phrasing, vibrato etc. into account.

From the videos - though it's a few days ago - some impressions:
- The Shires Curran sounded good, but not very interesting
- The Bach with the K valves had a very nice general sound, with maybe some limitations in playability
- Your custom/monster whatever bass sounds great - however to my ears very much oriented towards large orchestra settings
- The B&S sounded great and very interesting (actually a very positive suprise to me!)
- The King obviously sounds different than all the others and less allround, but could be great in suitable settings
- The Yamaha sounded good and very playable, though not very special

Overall very nice playing btw! Thanks for putting this out into public. In my opinion there is no perfect format for doing these comparisons, but also your videos are not just interesting, but do carry valuable information. Love your channel!

[blast]

Didn't notice the jazz clips....jazz 1 is my preference of those and on a par with arban 2.

[TheBoneRanger]

Oh, and thanks everyone for the comments and feedback. I only wish you could all come listen in person.

I wasn't kidding about this- these all sound pretty different in person.

I won't say my phone mic lies. You can hear my bad phrasing, bad time, intonation problems, and inconsistency. But the details of the sound of each horn are represented in a strange way on the phone (Google Pixel 6). That's why I wax poetic about each horn, to give impressions of how they sound behind the horn, and also what others have said in person.

My new mic interface showed up last night... I just might make this video again but with a real microphone. I'll give that a test today.

I was about to ask about which microphone you used for the video, then spotted this post. I’m sure we all know that a tiny phone microphone, compressed, side-on instead of bell facing, is obviously not the perfect way to judge tone. Then there’s whatever headphones the commenters are using…

For me, I think the video shows that smaller, brighter horns are easier to record.

I’ve been doing a lot of recording lately while settling into a new horn, using a Shure MV88+. It’s staggering the difference microphone placement makes. I was ready to bin the horn for a day or two, until I found a decent mic position. User error…

Perhaps I’ll do a similar video sometime soon, with my Bach w/Meinlschmidt rotors, Edwards, and a Shires.

[blast]

It's all just a bit of fun. The important thing is how a particular trombone goes down at work. If you don't work with them, it's ALL just fun.

[harrisonreed]

FWIW, a good general setup for miking this sort of thing is to do a 15-20cm stereo pair (or single spot) about 2m in front of the bell and 1m above axis, in either cardiod or Omni. It's a near-coincident pair that will avoid phasing on phone speakers, and sounds natural. Pan hard left/right. You can introduce a basic convolution reverb if your room blows, and make sure you bring the mics a little closer but same general setup, and definitely use cardiod.

If the room rocks and is big, and you want to hear it as close as possible to "real", you can do a slightly wider 50cm Omni pair in the exact middle of the room , maybe 2m above where the listener would be, pan hard left/right, and enjoy.

I'm going to listen to these when I get a chance and won't look at the reveal before I do. I'll in the process of moving to Kansas on Sunday, and things are crazy.

[Burgerbob]

Arbans

1. 7B with 1 1/2G
2. Curran
3. Sarastro

Cimera
1. 7B with Teele
2. Curran
3. Sarastro
4. 7B with 1 1/2G
5. Laetszch contra

Jazz
1. 7B with 1 1/2G
2. Curran
3. Sarastro

[blast]

Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece

[Elow]

Wow, my favorite was 3, i thought it was the Curran, i did not like the Curran though. The Sarastro sounded a little woofy in the earlier recordings but sounds good with the real microphones, i bet it sounds even better in person.

[JeffBone44]

I really liked that Cimera piece, what is it from?

[WilliamLang]

It's from 55 Phrasing Studies for Trombone by Jaroslav Cimera (and there's 60 studies in it!) Nice book for short etude work and reading practice. Steve Lange from the BSO put up a lot of them on his instagram as well.

[JeffBone44]

It's from 55 Phrasing Studies for Trombone by Jaroslav Cimera (and there's 60 studies in it!) Nice book for short etude work and reading practice. Steve Lange from the BSO put up a lot of them on his instagram as well.

Thanks!

[Burgerbob]

Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.

[spencercarran]

Another vote for the Sarastro, both on youtube and the blind recordings. Sorta has some Holton vibes but with the quirkiness smoothed out. Very nice-sounding horn, though I imagine it behaves differently enough from horns in the style of Curran or monster Bach that it would take an adjustment period before you'd want to use it on a paid gig.

[Burgerbob]

Another vote for the Sarastro

The B&S may be the best sounding horn I've had through the collection. It sure does play totally differently, though- that last 10% of the sound doesn't come until you are doing it juuuust right. That correct way isn't too hard, it's just way different than my other stuff. Hopefully that means it survives the purges...

[tbonesullivan]

Ha ha ha !!!!! There you are....all preconceptions removed and I make some amusing choices....particularly that I thought that the 7b is both the best and worst !!! Must be the change of mouthpiece

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.

I know the Duo Gravis / 6B was designed around a 1 1/2G type piece, so maybe the 7b and 8b were as well?

[Burgerbob]

It really did only want a 1 1/2G, even though the teele is barely larger. Very picky.

I know the Duo Gravis / 6B was designed around a 1 1/2G type piece, so maybe the 7b and 8b were as well?

The 7B sure. It's surprising because the Teele is just a slightly larger George Roberts piece, it's really just a big 1 1/2G.

[trombonedemon]

There's also something to be said for laying a sonic foundation for its own presence without competing with everybody else trying to "cut through the mix."

Well put Doug. I'm liking him on the German horn. That horn seems to be nice until it's time not to be.

[BrianJohnston]

I tend to think almost everyone sounds better on single bore slides.

Dual bore slides on alto DEFINITELY 100% sound better than single bore.

[bachMeuphere]

This video was super helpful. Researching for a bass bone myself right now. Thanks for the info!

[Burgerbob]

I should probably make another, actually

[WilliamLang]

I would love to hear your thoughts on your basses at the moment personally. It's been a great series to follow.

[Burgerbob]

Here's two:



The rest of this week I'm on large tenor... I think I'll make a day next week and get all the horns out.

[harrisonreed]

I think the Yamaha was the standout winner in that video. Bit warmer sound, the lines all seemed to lay better on it, and your intonation was better overall on the Yamaha. If you're selling the Yamaha, what are you keeping besides the Shires?

The Shires sounds like it wants to be first trombone, rather than support the trombones.

[Burgerbob]

I think the Yamaha was the standout winner in that video. Bit warmer sound, the lines all seemed to lay better on it, and your intonation was better overall on the Yamaha. If you're selling the Yamaha, what are you keeping besides the Shires?

The Shires sounds like it wants to be first trombone, rather than support the trombones.

It does have some wideness to it that sounds great at lower volumes. Perhaps this is what we would call a not-even sound- it definitely zings up quickly with volume, where the Shires will sound pretty similar as I get louder. The higher overtones are still present when played at lower volumes on that horn. I tried playing some excerpts on both and the Yamaha falls apart in those circumstances, something I ran into trying to use my old 613 in a wind ensemble.

I do love both horns and styles... the Shires is a new slide and an unfamiliar mouthpiece at the moment, so it's definitely less comfortable.

I still have 2 other basses I use most of the time that will be included in a future video, one of which is a sister Yamaha to the 613.

[ScottZigler]

Aidan -
Have you ever played the Shires Bollinger? Back in 2017, Ben Griffin mentioned they play on opposite ends of the spectrum:

viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527

I agree with his take on the Bollinger, but I've never played on a Curran to compare. Might this be what you're trying to adjust with the single bore slide? Good luck, and keep sending us video updates!

[Burgerbob]

Aidan -
Have you ever played the Shires Bollinger? Back in 2017, Ben Griffin mentioned they play on opposite ends of the spectrum:

viewtopic.php?p=12527#p12527

I agree with his take on the Bollinger, but I've never played on a Curran to compare. Might this be what you're trying to adjust with the single bore slide? Good luck, and keep sending us video updates!

I have, but not for a long time. I remember really liking it. I think all three are a little too focused on their gig for me to use full time!