Sometimes analogies work to explain things--
The 2G works wonderfully in some horns for some players for the following reason: You can stick a 4 l. ( 1 gallon) sized funnel into a tiny garden hose and it'll fill the hose pretty poorly and not very quickly. Stick a much smaller funnel into that tiny hose and the hose will fill at the same rate, but the funnel will be more efficient.
Sond aside, and vintage sound aside, a 1 1/2G or 2G works very well on some horns because they are mated very well.
All the mechanics aside, a young student would be able to learn quickly and with proper mechanics to play the horn on a 2G. Most young students struggle to play a huge mouthpiece, as they should, as it is a large tool designed for experienced well muscled players who have lots of proper mechanical/muscular support to play the huge gear.
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
-
ttf_bonesmarsh
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
-
ttf_bigbassbone1
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 08, 2017, 05:47AMSometimes analogies work to explain things--
The 2G works wonderfully in some horns for some players for the following reason: You can stick a 4 l. ( 1 gallon) sized funnel into a tiny garden hose and it'll fill the hose pretty poorly and not very quickly. Stick a much smaller funnel into that tiny hose and the hose will fill at the same rate, but the funnel will be more efficient.
Sond aside, and vintage sound aside, a 1 1/2G or 2G works very well on some horns because they are mated very well.
All the mechanics aside, a young student would be able to learn quickly and with proper mechanics to play the horn on a 2G. Most young students struggle to play a huge mouthpiece, as they should, as it is a large tool designed for experienced well muscled players who have lots of proper mechanical/muscular support to play the huge gear.
So if the size causes such an issue for young players, does that mean that teachers should discourage young players from leaning the tuba until they have experience and development on a smaller instrument? Or is that different? That is massive gear, and I have both seen and heard some incredible young players on tuba.
The 2G works wonderfully in some horns for some players for the following reason: You can stick a 4 l. ( 1 gallon) sized funnel into a tiny garden hose and it'll fill the hose pretty poorly and not very quickly. Stick a much smaller funnel into that tiny hose and the hose will fill at the same rate, but the funnel will be more efficient.
Sond aside, and vintage sound aside, a 1 1/2G or 2G works very well on some horns because they are mated very well.
All the mechanics aside, a young student would be able to learn quickly and with proper mechanics to play the horn on a 2G. Most young students struggle to play a huge mouthpiece, as they should, as it is a large tool designed for experienced well muscled players who have lots of proper mechanical/muscular support to play the huge gear.
So if the size causes such an issue for young players, does that mean that teachers should discourage young players from leaning the tuba until they have experience and development on a smaller instrument? Or is that different? That is massive gear, and I have both seen and heard some incredible young players on tuba.
-
ttf_Gabe Langfur
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Aug 08, 2017, 06:18AMSo if the size causes such an issue for young players, does that mean that teachers should discourage young players from leaning the tuba until they have experience and development on a smaller instrument? Or is that different? That is massive gear, and I have both seen and heard some incredible young players on tuba.
No. A tuba is a tuba, and a trombone, bass or otherwise, is a trombone. It only makes sense to start a kid on a smaller, more manageable version of a tuba, just as we do on trombone.
That said, I've seen some clear advantages to kids starting on a smaller brass instrument. I had a high school student this summer who started on trumpet with a great teacher, and he's set up with about the most perfect embouchure I've ever seen - easy range with focus from pedal F to double Bb with no apparent shifts or manipulations. The great teacher is probably the most important factor, but...this is a topic for a different discussion, I'm sure.
No. A tuba is a tuba, and a trombone, bass or otherwise, is a trombone. It only makes sense to start a kid on a smaller, more manageable version of a tuba, just as we do on trombone.
That said, I've seen some clear advantages to kids starting on a smaller brass instrument. I had a high school student this summer who started on trumpet with a great teacher, and he's set up with about the most perfect embouchure I've ever seen - easy range with focus from pedal F to double Bb with no apparent shifts or manipulations. The great teacher is probably the most important factor, but...this is a topic for a different discussion, I'm sure.
-
ttf_donn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: bonesmarsh on Aug 07, 2017, 07:04AMAnother long lost gem is the Conn Connstellation 3B. 2G in size, but deeeep and conical, not bowl shaped.
I have a Conn 3B with a diameter noticeably larger than my 2G, though it isn't easy to compare because of the sloping inner edge of the Bach vs. the sharp Conn edge. It's a little deeper. I wonder if the Conns changed over the years? Mine doesn't say "Constellation".
My other Brown & Sharpe shank mouthpiece is a Reynolds 2B, and that's very close to my 2G in size. The cup is much more conical and a little shallower; rim is not sharp but not as unnecessarily round as the Bach.
I have a Conn 3B with a diameter noticeably larger than my 2G, though it isn't easy to compare because of the sloping inner edge of the Bach vs. the sharp Conn edge. It's a little deeper. I wonder if the Conns changed over the years? Mine doesn't say "Constellation".
My other Brown & Sharpe shank mouthpiece is a Reynolds 2B, and that's very close to my 2G in size. The cup is much more conical and a little shallower; rim is not sharp but not as unnecessarily round as the Bach.
-
ttf_bonesmarsh
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Thank you, Gabe, a beautiful reasoned response. As for beginner tubists?-- it is a conical horn, not cylindrical, and nobody expects a beginner tubist to have four octaves range to cover their parts. For the most part if a beginner tubist can cough up 1 1/2 octaves they are a hero.
-
ttf_Eyedoc
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:53 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
May I ask the question, is the Rath B 1 1/2 a copy of Chris' beloved MV 1 1/2 G?
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Eyedoc on Aug 08, 2017, 10:36PMMay I ask the question, is the Rath B 1 1/2 a copy of Chris' beloved MV 1 1/2 G?
Simply...no.
The B1 1/2W is a copy of a wide rim MV 1 1/2G that I own. The B1 1/2 was done away from me. All Raths have their own style bores and backbones so none are really copies.
Chris Stearn
Simply...no.
The B1 1/2W is a copy of a wide rim MV 1 1/2G that I own. The B1 1/2 was done away from me. All Raths have their own style bores and backbones so none are really copies.
Chris Stearn
-
ttf_fsung
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:01 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
[OT RANT]
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Aug 08, 2017, 06:18AMSo if the size causes such an issue for young players, does that mean that teachers should discourage young players from leaning the tuba until they have experience and development on a smaller instrument? Or is that different? That is massive gear, and I have both seen and heard some incredible young players on tuba.
Although I violently disagree with the practice, starting young (middle school age) players on small instruments seems to be becoming the norm, at least in public schools in this area, in beginning band circles these days, where, for the first year (in some cases, two), instrument choices are restricted to trumpet, trombone, clarinet, flute, and percussion, and once the quota for a particular instrument is filled, you have to choose something else. (Now THERE'S a brilliant way to inspire a prospective band kid: "Sorry, we already have our quota of trumpets, trombones, percussion, and clarinets: wanna play flute?"
) They can change to a different instrument after a year (if they're still around), but it still has to be one of the "approved" instruments. Only in Year Three can they choose something not on the list.
In my cynical moments, I think it's a move to cut, if not ultimately eliminate, the music/arts budget from public schools ("Band enrollment and player retention keeps dropping, so why are we wasting money on band?"); in my somewhat less cynical moments, I think it's a reflection of the sorry state of Music Ed degree programs (band director can't teach a beginning ____ player the rudiments if s/he can't play/never played ___ her/him-self).
[/RANT]
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Aug 08, 2017, 06:18AMSo if the size causes such an issue for young players, does that mean that teachers should discourage young players from leaning the tuba until they have experience and development on a smaller instrument? Or is that different? That is massive gear, and I have both seen and heard some incredible young players on tuba.
Although I violently disagree with the practice, starting young (middle school age) players on small instruments seems to be becoming the norm, at least in public schools in this area, in beginning band circles these days, where, for the first year (in some cases, two), instrument choices are restricted to trumpet, trombone, clarinet, flute, and percussion, and once the quota for a particular instrument is filled, you have to choose something else. (Now THERE'S a brilliant way to inspire a prospective band kid: "Sorry, we already have our quota of trumpets, trombones, percussion, and clarinets: wanna play flute?"
) They can change to a different instrument after a year (if they're still around), but it still has to be one of the "approved" instruments. Only in Year Three can they choose something not on the list. In my cynical moments, I think it's a move to cut, if not ultimately eliminate, the music/arts budget from public schools ("Band enrollment and player retention keeps dropping, so why are we wasting money on band?"); in my somewhat less cynical moments, I think it's a reflection of the sorry state of Music Ed degree programs (band director can't teach a beginning ____ player the rudiments if s/he can't play/never played ___ her/him-self).
[/RANT]
-
ttf_wgwbassbone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: blast on Aug 08, 2017, 11:56PMSimply...no.
The B1 1/2W is a copy of a wide rim MV 1 1/2G that I own. The B1 1/2 was done away from me. All Raths have their own style bores and backbones so none are really copies.
Chris Stearn
Chris do you know the differences, besides the wider rim, between the Rath B2 and B2W?
The B1 1/2W is a copy of a wide rim MV 1 1/2G that I own. The B1 1/2 was done away from me. All Raths have their own style bores and backbones so none are really copies.
Chris Stearn
Chris do you know the differences, besides the wider rim, between the Rath B2 and B2W?
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: wgwbassbone on Aug 09, 2017, 05:45AMChris do you know the differences, besides the wider rim, between the Rath B2 and B2W?
That's fairly easy... The B2 was a copy of a great MV Bach 2G.. with Rath throat and backbone.. . The B2W started out as a B2 to which was added a very wide rim which I re-shaped to be in the style of the Ray Premru rim.
Chris Stearn
That's fairly easy... The B2 was a copy of a great MV Bach 2G.. with Rath throat and backbone.. . The B2W started out as a B2 to which was added a very wide rim which I re-shaped to be in the style of the Ray Premru rim.
Chris Stearn
-
ttf_tbathras
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
I'm curious if the greats we refer to - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims. From what Doug has said in other threads, individuals should have a "goldilocks" range of rim sizes based on what their optimal embouchure is. I wonder if anyone (like Doug) has looked at videos of George or Ray, etc, to see if they are the type that would prefer smaller rims in general, or if they are just work horses that relentlessly stuck to their guns and made it work.
-
ttf_svenlarsson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:35 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Listening to G.R. and R.P. I say that they have what is sometimes said (not by me) to be an oldfashioned sound, because so many bass players do have a bigger, what is said modern sound.
In USA it is bigger mpc and often bigger sound, In Sweden it is both bigger, and back to normal (smaller). The size of rim is also a choise of what we like to sound like. Some say that the size of rim is unimportant for the sound, I do not agree.
In USA it is bigger mpc and often bigger sound, In Sweden it is both bigger, and back to normal (smaller). The size of rim is also a choise of what we like to sound like. Some say that the size of rim is unimportant for the sound, I do not agree.
-
ttf_Alex
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: tbathras on Aug 09, 2017, 07:47AMI'm curious if the greats we refer to - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims.
I think the problem here is wbat you are refering to as smaller rims, were not seen as smaller rims at the time they made their cboices.
I think the problem here is wbat you are refering to as smaller rims, were not seen as smaller rims at the time they made their cboices.
-
ttf_Gabe Langfur
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: tbathras on Aug 09, 2017, 07:47AMI'm curious if the greats we refer to - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims. From what Doug has said in other threads, individuals should have a "goldilocks" range of rim sizes based on what their optimal embouchure is. I wonder if anyone (like Doug) has looked at videos of George or Ray, etc, to see if they are the type that would prefer smaller rims in general, or if they are just work horses that relentlessly stuck to their guns and made it work.
Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
-
ttf_wgwbassbone
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 09, 2017, 09:42AMRay Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
So maybe with my slight overbite that might not work so well for me.
So maybe with my slight overbite that might not work so well for me.
-
ttf_MoominDave
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: wgwbassbone on Aug 09, 2017, 12:13PMSo maybe with my slight overbite that might not work so well for me.
Just turn it upside down...
Just turn it upside down...
-
ttf_Trombocholik
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 09, 2017, 09:42AMRay Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
It is interesting that in the USSR teachers switched students with an underbite on the bass trombone. Underbite was considered an ideal for bass trombone.
It is interesting that in the USSR teachers switched students with an underbite on the bass trombone. Underbite was considered an ideal for bass trombone.
-
ttf_tbathras
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:57 am
-
ttf_Gabe Langfur
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Trombocholik on Aug 09, 2017, 01:58PMIt is interesting that in the USSR teachers switched students with an underbite on the bass trombone. Underbite was considered an ideal for bass trombone.
That's smart, but it's certainly possible to play well without one.
That's smart, but it's certainly possible to play well without one.
-
ttf_bigbassbone1
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 09, 2017, 09:42AMRay Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
That's very interesting. I think that is what I have, I cannot actually put my bottom teeth behind my top teeth, my top teeth have always sat behind the bottom teeth on my jaw my whole life. That's an underbite isn't it?
What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.
That's very interesting. I think that is what I have, I cannot actually put my bottom teeth behind my top teeth, my top teeth have always sat behind the bottom teeth on my jaw my whole life. That's an underbite isn't it?
What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.
-
ttf_harrison.t.reed
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
I force an underbite to play pedals.
-
ttf_Doug Elliott
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Most players with an underbite would be low placement upstream embouchure. I have also seen a very high placement work with a small underbite.
Low placement can work well with either small or large mouthpieces.
Low placement can work well with either small or large mouthpieces.
-
ttf_Gabe Langfur
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Aug 09, 2017, 03:18PMThat's very interesting. I think that is what I have, I cannot actually put my bottom teeth behind my top teeth, my top teeth have always sat behind the bottom teeth on my jaw my whole life. That's an underbite isn't it?
What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.
Yes, that's an underbite. My observation is that it seems to allow the kind of space in the mouth you want for the low register without having to manipulate anything.
I've taught two bass trombone players with underbites who presented the same way in early college:
1. easy big sound in the low register with no manipulation necessary - it just falls out, and trying to do something to make a bigger sound only makes it sound unfocused and not respond as well.
and 2. Unusually low cut-off of response in the high register, around F# or G above middle C. One had worked out a radical shift he could do to get high notes out, but it was not practical, and the other simply couldn't play consistently up there.
Both of them learned that they needed to take the usual advice people gave about how to access the high register - actually almost everything about embouchure - and do pretty much the opposite.
Fortunately, the first one I met, Justin Clark now of the Bern Symphony in Switzerland, figured out how to connect his registers (independent of me) and has established himself as a high-level player. He came to visit BU and talked a bit with my second student like this, giving him some clues in about 5 minutes that put him on the path to develop his own high register. He's turned into a very fine young player who is going places.
I now have a student without an underbite but who plays with that kind of angle quite successfully. He's young and developing, but I think he will be very fine.
What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.
Yes, that's an underbite. My observation is that it seems to allow the kind of space in the mouth you want for the low register without having to manipulate anything.
I've taught two bass trombone players with underbites who presented the same way in early college:
1. easy big sound in the low register with no manipulation necessary - it just falls out, and trying to do something to make a bigger sound only makes it sound unfocused and not respond as well.
and 2. Unusually low cut-off of response in the high register, around F# or G above middle C. One had worked out a radical shift he could do to get high notes out, but it was not practical, and the other simply couldn't play consistently up there.
Both of them learned that they needed to take the usual advice people gave about how to access the high register - actually almost everything about embouchure - and do pretty much the opposite.
Fortunately, the first one I met, Justin Clark now of the Bern Symphony in Switzerland, figured out how to connect his registers (independent of me) and has established himself as a high-level player. He came to visit BU and talked a bit with my second student like this, giving him some clues in about 5 minutes that put him on the path to develop his own high register. He's turned into a very fine young player who is going places.
I now have a student without an underbite but who plays with that kind of angle quite successfully. He's young and developing, but I think he will be very fine.
-
ttf_Gabe Langfur
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Oh, and Justin plays a Laskey 93D - plenty big. I think my more recent student plays on a Griego GP and doesn't want to go any larger.
-
ttf_bigbassbone1
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
Quote from: Gabe Langfur on Aug 09, 2017, 03:55PMOh, and Justin plays a Laskey 93D - plenty big. I think my more recent student plays on a Griego GP and doesn't want to go any larger.
This is a very interesting read for me Thanks!
It sounds like many of my "symptoms" are quite typical. I play a Laskey 93D and the mouthpiece is put very far down on my face... a lot more lower lip in there than upper, etc...
What sounds slightly different for me is the register thing. I feel like now days I have no "major" issues affecting my lower or upper range and I don't struggle to connect them. However, when I was in high school I had huge problems with low register. I was no superstar as a teenager, but never struggled with any high register music that was put in front of me. For many years though I could barely make a sound below just a middle F in the stave. I worked very hard at the end of high school to develop a low register which I believe I have done successfully. I do have a minor "shift" from middle F in the stave to everything above. It's kind of a "turning point" for me. It's not a big deal though, no one has mentioned it in lessons and I can play smoothly over and through it. I find that I do have to work harder to maintain and refine my low register more so than my upper.
Apologies for selfishly sidetracking the thread, that part of it was very interesting to me.
This is a very interesting read for me Thanks!
It sounds like many of my "symptoms" are quite typical. I play a Laskey 93D and the mouthpiece is put very far down on my face... a lot more lower lip in there than upper, etc...
What sounds slightly different for me is the register thing. I feel like now days I have no "major" issues affecting my lower or upper range and I don't struggle to connect them. However, when I was in high school I had huge problems with low register. I was no superstar as a teenager, but never struggled with any high register music that was put in front of me. For many years though I could barely make a sound below just a middle F in the stave. I worked very hard at the end of high school to develop a low register which I believe I have done successfully. I do have a minor "shift" from middle F in the stave to everything above. It's kind of a "turning point" for me. It's not a big deal though, no one has mentioned it in lessons and I can play smoothly over and through it. I find that I do have to work harder to maintain and refine my low register more so than my upper.
Apologies for selfishly sidetracking the thread, that part of it was very interesting to me.
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
No problem with being slightly off topic.... Just note that many of the world's greatest players have a chops break... or even several of them.... others have no breaks.... and a few get to choose...
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn
-
ttf_Dukesboneman
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:43 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
I have 2 breaks.
first at pedal G. MAJOR shift for anything below G
High C - anything above high C. all the way up to Double high A
first at pedal G. MAJOR shift for anything below G
High C - anything above high C. all the way up to Double high A
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
It's been an interesting experiment, but I have been working this week, and that has been on a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... it never really got to the stage of the 2G being a real consideration.... it still hits places on my teeth that make it feel less than right. It did make me look for some old Conn leadpipes which have turned out quite well, at least on my modern Conn.
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn
-
ttf_blast
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:15 pm
2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
It's been an interesting experiment, but I have been working this week, and that has been on a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... it never really got to the stage of the 2G being a real consideration.... it still hits places on my teeth that make it feel less than right. It did make me look for some old Conn leadpipes which have turned out quite well, at least on my modern Conn.
Chris Stearn
Chris Stearn