TromboneChat

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jun 08, 2009, 09:10AMi  had  a  buyer for this  one[before the kid  got hip  to the w]  //also for israe butler's  just in case it  didnt fit
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sams old gold and silver    was  pretty lite in the bell //compared to  a tennesse i had  at  same  time
  i can see why  certain bells would be  for certain jobs
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Did he buy your 6, DJ?  The one I played in Cape Girardeau?
I think you took this video, didn't you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAHczuq3kZI

no way   --the 6  i have  -the flare is  heavier than most of the 6s  i have seen 
bruces    and  moncellis  are both  lighter  /
  some  schmelzers  have that  same familiar =  unfamiliar  learning  thing
======
had  a  minick 100h   //pipes  were  ''different''   --didnt  lie the  curvy  hand brace  either  '
 but the  blow /feel ///vibe   was great 




Quote from: DaveAshley on Jun 08, 2009, 10:11AMDid he buy your 6, DJ?  The one I played in Cape Girardeau?
I think you took this video, didn't you? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAHczuq3kZI

Quote from: Koz on Jun 07, 2009, 09:34PMThe protype Kanstul 1606 (the first horn made) is owned by a player here in Chicago. It is a fantastic playing horn. The bell is the lightest bell offered by Kanstul for the 1606. It has a nickel slide.

Thanks, Koz.
I seem to remember that this horn received a lot of acclaim as a good Williams clone when it was first made.
That suggests that the Williams 6 was a light horn, maybe with a fairly bright voice, and fast response ???
Subject, of course, to the variations resulting from Earl's moods, daily problems, and customer whims. Sam Burtis said that he plated his Williams to settle it down a bit. That also seems consistent with a light horn.


Quote from: sabutin on Jun 08, 2009, 04:24AMThey were fantastic instruments. Real singers. I have never played a "dog" Earl Williams...not that I doubt that they might exist, especially after 40 or 50+ years of possible meddling... nor have I ever played a bad Wallace Williams.

Hilarious?

How many pages of hilarious do we have here?

18?

Hmmmmm....

Some were lighter than others.

Some were reputedly buffed down even further to fit a very light LA studio approach.

Others were treated to Herrick leadpipes.

But even after not playing mine for 7 or 8 years, when I picked up the one that Isrea Butler bought recently and played it, that "Williams" feel was right there.

It's not "hype" if more than about 3 really serious players loved it.

Dick Nash.

Jack Teagarden.

Billy Byers.

Off the top of my head.

So maybe Earl wasn't the greatest businessman. Irascible is the word that comes to mind after hearing Jimmy Knepper speak of him. (I can relate...) Or maybe he was unwilling to make the compromises that inevitably come with expansion. But "hype"?

I think not.

"Hero" sounds more like it.

Later...

S.

P.S. I have played a number of Kanstuls. Good horns. But I have never played one that sang like a good Earl Williams 6. Never. And yes, I do think that it's in the metal.

P.P.S. Irascible? Jimmy told me that Earl wouldn't even tell his own son his horn-making secrets. Sounds like one of those Japanese sword makers.

The Earl Williams Katana model.

Played exclusively by Musashi Miyamoto.

Like dat!!!



Sam,
Thanks for the great input.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you liked the Williams because of its sound. "Real singers," you said. (I'm not sure what a singer is.) You also referred to the "Williams feel." My personal definition of feel is how easily I can make a horn produce the variety of sounds that are in my head, and how well the horn gives me feedback to verify my efforts. Is this what you like about the Williams feel?
Somewhere in the archives of this forum, there is a post where you said that the trombone is a clumsy instrument, not well suited to rapid articulations. All we have is our sound. Is that what the Williams is all about? Its sound?

Quote from: CharlieB on Jun 08, 2009, 11:18AM---snip---
Sam,
Thanks for the great input.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you liked the Williams because of its sound. "Real singers," you said. (I'm not sure what a singer is.) You also referred to the "Williams feel." My personal definition of feel is how easily I can make a horn produce the variety of sounds that are in my head, and how well the horn gives me feedback to verify my efforts. Is this what you like about the Williams feel?
Somewhere in the archives of this forum, there is a post where you said that the trombone is a clumsy instrument, not well suited to rapid articulations. All we have is our sound. Is that what the Williams is all about? Its sound?
Sound, attacks, feedback...especially feedback...easy, open blow (thus easy rapid articulation) and projection were the reasons that I liked (and continue to like) Earl Williams horns.

Why not continue to play one?

Well, number one I wanted a little more mass of sound. A little more density. remember, I was playing lead with Tito Puente and Tito-style big bands then as a large part of my work (As I still do.), and brother..."mass" and "density do not begin to describe that brass style. Now that is fairly easy to get with any number of equivalently sized horns...great Bachs, great Kings...but the Bachs didn't project the way that I wanted them to project and Kings have holes in their blow with which I am unwilling (Unable?) to deal. (The new ones are better in that department, I think, but this was 15+ years ago.) Plus I was also playing larger horns by choice as a solo instrument ('30s TIS Conns) and trying to blend with general business NY commercial players as well. (At which task the Williams was great.) Since I couldn't find a really good Williams 8 I really wanted some consistency as I went back and forth. Several years into that conundrum I picked up a .525 Shires at one of the NYC Brass Conferences, liked it so much that I used it on a concert that evening and I was hooked. Steve started to make smaller instruments soon after that and the next thing I knew my problem was solved, my Williams was living in England, my TIS Conns were living in the attic and my Dave Taylor-altered Holton bass was back with its original owner.

So it goes.

As a fine young Chinese student once said to me as I was driving him through the ex-urban, petroleum-polluted wasteland swamps of New Jersey to take him to Dillon's, "I am one lucky Chinese person!!!"

I am just one lucky trombonist, I guess.

A stubborn one, anyway.

So it goes.

Later...

S.

 

QuoteAs a fine young Chinese student once said to me as I was driving him through the ex-urban, petroleum-polluted wasteland swamps of New Jersey to take him to Dillon's, "I am one lucky Chinese person!!!"

Sam,
Thanks for the laugh.
You made my day.
That's great stuff.
What a joy to be downwind of the landfills and the refineries along the NJ Turnpike on a hot day!!!


Quote from: sabutin on Jun 08, 2009, 12:08PMSound, attacks, feedback...especially feedback...easy, open blow (thus easy rapid articulation) and projection were the reasons that I liked (and continue to like) Earl Williams horns.

Why not continue to play one?

Well, number one I wanted a little more mass of sound. A little more density. remember, I was playing lead with Tito Puente and Tito-style big bands then as a large part of my work (As I still do.), and brother..."mass" and "density do not begin to describe that brass style. Now that is fairly easy to get with any number of equivalently sized horns...great Bachs, great Kings...but the Bachs didn't project the way that I wanted them to project and Kings have holes in their blow with which I am unwilling (Unable?) to deal. (The new ones are better in that department, I think, but this was 15+ years ago.) Plus I was also playing larger horns by choice as a solo instrument ('30s TIS Conns) and trying to blend with general business NY commercial players as well. (At which task the Williams was great.) Since I couldn't find a really good Williams 8 I really wanted some consistency as I went back and forth. Several years into that conundrum I picked up a .525 Shires at one of the NYC Brass Conferences, liked it so much that I used it on a concert that evening and I was hooked. Steve started to make smaller instruments soon after that and the next thing I knew my problem was solved, my Williams was living in England, my TIS Conns were living in the attic and my Dave Taylor-altered Holton bass was back with its original owner.


Thanks a million, Sam, for taking the time to post the good info.
Now I know why these old Williams horns sell for almost as much as a brand new Shires.
I have a .500 Hopedale with LW nickle slide, LW unsoldered bell, and one of the new 1.5 tuning slides.(Tried those yet?) Betcha that horn's pretty close to an old Earl.

Thanks again.
Charlie

>> BFW: fixed quote format

Whats that ol' saying...."They weapon doesn't make the man"....

just makes the man deadly...

Quote from: KINGJIGG1943 on Jun 13, 2009, 03:02AMWhats that ol' saying...."They weapon doesn't make the man"....
Yep, not even if Carl Fontana used to play it.....

Quote from: KINGJIGG1943 on Jun 13, 2009, 03:02AMWhats that ol' saying...."They weapon doesn't make the man"....

I would counter that with another cliche. "You don't show up at a gun fight armed with a knife."   

More to the point; I can buy fine French wine, or "Wine in a Box." Both will quench my thirst, but only one will provide satisfaction. I feel much more satisfied playing a fine trombone than a poor one.

So, the natural question was;  why do so many accomplished musicians on this forum feel that the Williams falls in the fine French wine category?

Sam Burtis was kind enough to provide a very insightful answer.
Thank you again, Sam.

I made a video for anyone interested where I compare my Shires and Williams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js45cvU6jY0

I like the way you sound on the Williams better.  It's a more complicated, more interesting sound.

And I'm biased to like Shires equipment since that's what I play!

If I told you I liked the Shires better, would you sell me the Williams? 

Quote from: jazztrbn77 on Jun 16, 2009, 09:55PMI made a video for anyone interested where I compare my Shires and Williams.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js45cvU6jY0

Great demonstration, Paul.
Many thanks

          

Well, I think everyone has to go to:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Earl-Williams-Custom-Bb-Bass-Trumpet_W0QQitemZ180370720918QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090619?IMSfp=TL0906191710001r35000

to see a bit of a jaw-dropper...

What do you all think???

Hey!  Thanks for the info Sharman!!!     If I was younger and thought I could learn to play it and put it to use I'd go for it...  Oh yeah, and if I could afford it.     I suspect it'll take some serious buck to win that auction, but I guess you never know. 

That Bass Trumpet seems very promising!

BTW Speaking of .500 bores, I found a Williams 7 in the world today.  About how many of those did they make?  Only other horn that I have seen with a small bore and F was a Silvertone 2b.  Wonder how it handles.

Quote from: bachbone on Jun 22, 2009, 07:06PMThat Bass Trumpet seems very promising!

BTW Speaking of .500 bores, I found a Williams 7 in the world today.  About how many of those did they make?  Only other horn that I have seen with a small bore and F was a Silvertone 2b.  Wonder how it handles.

I have a G/D bass with a .485" slide bore and .500" rotor bore. The D side is stuffy...

Wow, Dave!  Who made that horn?

Quote from: bachbone on Jun 22, 2009, 07:06PM
BTW Speaking of .500 bores, I found a Williams 7 in the world today.  About how many of those did they make?  Only other horn that I have seen with a small bore and F was a Silvertone 2b.  Wonder how it handles.

Hi Koda.  Is the 7 available for sale?

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jun 23, 2009, 02:00AMWow, Dave!  Who made that horn?

Hawkes & Son of London, c.1923. But... I'm pretty certain that it was originally built as a straight G - the valve arm is stamped 'Paxman', as in the French horn makers, so presumably the valve was added later.

It's a nice instrument, but I don't find too many opportunities to deploy it...

Sorry everyone, but the 7 isn't for sale.  (not even mine) and I don't want the owner to get emails upon emails to see if he is selling his horn, because he is not.  He is the Adjunct Professor of Trombone and Euphonium University of Minnesota-Twin Cities.  I will invite him to the forum to share his wisdom about his trombone and experiences.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jun 23, 2009, 02:12AMHawkes & Son of London, c.1923. But... I'm pretty certain that it was originally built as a straight G - the valve arm is stamped 'Paxman', as in the French horn makers, so presumably the valve was added later.

It's a nice instrument, but I don't find too many opportunities to deploy it...

Hmm, interesting history on your bass trumpet.  I hope you get to play it more often.  It sounds like it would be a fun thing to do.

Quote from: bachbone on Jun 23, 2009, 09:26AMSorry everyone, but the 7 isn't for sale.  (not even mine) and I don't want the owner to get emails upon emails to see if he is selling his horn, because he is not.  He is the Adjunct Professor of Trombone and Euphonium University of Minnesota-Twin Cities.  I will invite him to the forum to share his wisdom about his trombone and experiences.

I wonder if the professor realizes how rare his 7 is?  John Noxon said, "The 7 I only know of about 5... "  It would be nice to hear what the prof has to say about it.

The Williams bass trumpet is still sitting at $509 but there's still 2 days 9 hrs left in the auction.  I wonder if the seller is going to get his reserve?

Quote from: bachbone on Jun 22, 2009, 07:06PM...Only other horn that I have seen with a small bore and F was a Silvertone 2b.  Wonder how it handles.

Not a Williams but a 0.485 with F attachment, Selmer Special. Plays great even in the valve register.
 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=180351157688

Quote from: lingon on Jun 23, 2009, 12:10PMNot a Williams but a 0.485 with F attachment, Selmer Special. Plays great even in the valve register.
 
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=180351157688


If only it had a Thayer...

Please forgive me if I missed this in earlier posts (I did actually read the whole thread...), but what kind of bead to Williams horns have?  Is it soldered or no? 

I haven't played one in a good while and was just wondering.  I just played on a Mt. Vernon 16 the other day with a french bead and it was by FAR the best 16 I've ever laid hands on.  I'm certain there were other factors.

Quote from: bachbone on Jun 23, 2009, 01:43PMIf only it had a Thayer...

It does only require a bit of surgery...

Quote from: lingon on Jun 23, 2009, 02:23PMIt does only require a bit of surgery...

this thread has been dead for quite some time now... any interesting news?

i  have  sales  for  6s   and  4s 
if there were  any  available

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jul 03, 2009, 05:39AMi  have  sales  for  6s   and  4s 
if there were  any  available

I'm not interested in selling mine, I'm just interested in what the fair market value is for a 6 right now.

Quote from: Joel Felberg on Jul 03, 2009, 06:36PMI'm not interested in selling mine, I'm just interested in what the fair market value is for a 6 right now.

Is it a burbank?  LA? TN? (anything else)?

That sure does change the price on one of these.  Every brand has their sweet manufacturing place.

Bach - NY
King - HN White
Conn - Elkhart
Williams - Burbank

Quote from: dj kennedy on Jul 03, 2009, 05:39AMi  have  sales  for  6s   and  4s 
if there were  any  available

Hi dj,   

Can you put me on your list for a 4 and a 9? 

Aloha,
Richard

Quote from: bachbone on Jul 03, 2009, 06:54PMIs it a burbank?  LA? TN? (anything else)?

That sure does change the price on one of these.  Every brand has their sweet manufacturing place.

Bach - NY
King - HN White
Conn - Elkhart
Williams - Burbank

It's a Burbank, SN 1101.

Quote from: Joel Felberg on Jul 03, 2009, 10:12PMIt's a Burbank, SN 1101.

With provenance.....

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jul 03, 2009, 07:01PMHi dj,   

Can you put me on your list for a 4 and a 9? 

Aloha,
Richard


You can put me in line for the same too lol!!

I have a TN 4 that I played when I was in the Note.  I might be willing to sell it... probably not though, it's a great horn and I might want to go back to it sometime.  I don't sell horns, for that reason.

I have a TN 6 in fantastic condition.
Also a great playing horn.
I'd only sell if somebody offered me the right price.

A lot 

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Jul 04, 2009, 12:58PMI have a TN 6 in fantastic condition.
Also a great playing horn.
I'd only sell if somebody offered me the right price.

A lot 

Are thier any design or production differences in Burbank and TN 6's? I only own a few parts of TN horns and never got to play a complete one.

My TN 6 has a normal water key and Williams etched on the upper part of my outer slide.

Quote from: RepublicanTbone76 on Jul 04, 2009, 02:04PMI only own a few parts of TN horns and never got to play a complete one.

What parts do you have?

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 04, 2009, 09:07PMWhat parts do you have?

My 7 is a horn a bought from a guy who turned a TN Williams 6 into a 7. The bell is original, the bell section is made of kanstul parts that are designed after the 7. I understand they make a copy of the 7 but I have never seen one. The slide seems all original except the fact it has a regular spit valve. I thought this was after market but as Chris told me a few posts ago, this was usual for TN horns. I also own a 10 bell that I bought from the same gentleman who brokered my deal for the other parts. From what I understand, the 10 bells were almost stock Conn 72H bells that were finished by Earl and Bob Williams. The bell I have was supposed to have been a bell than was left over from the CA years that made the move to TN. I personally can not tell any difference between this bell and a stock 72H except it has no engraving.  I simply call my 10 a 10 because of the bell. The rest of it is all Conn 71 and 72 parts. Nothing special there.

ben griffin    has been  blowing  a  485 [ or  so]  shires   for    longer than  his  usual 
   experimental   test flights
 interesting that  the  model  4   is  in  demand 
especially  in beginning of  july
  with all that  banging  noise  and smoke


Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 04, 2009, 09:57AMI have a TN 4 that I played when I was in the Note.  I might be willing to sell it... probably not though, it's a great horn and I might want to go back to it sometime.  I don't sell horns, for that reason.

Quote from: RepublicanTbone76 on Jul 04, 2009, 09:26PM... I also own a 10 bell that I bought from the same gentleman who brokered my deal for the other parts. From what I understand, the 10 bells were almost stock Conn 72H bells that were finished by Earl and Bob Williams. The bell I have was supposed to have been a bell than was left over from the CA years that made the move to TN. I personally can not tell any difference between this bell and a stock 72H except it has no engraving.  I simply call my 10 a 10 because of the bell. The rest of it is all Conn 71 and 72 parts. Nothing special there.

Interesting stuff.  Have you had a chance to compare your 10 against a stock Conn 71H or 72H?  I understand that Earl started making bass bones by buying raw 72H bells from Conn, then working his magic on it so that the 10's blew quite differently from a 72H.  It would be interesting to see how much difference there is between your 10 bell with 71 and 72 parts and a stock 72H.  If there is a huge difference, it might be because of Earl's work on the bell.  It wouldn't be a conclusive experiment but it would probably tell us a lot.

Aloha,
Richard

You've done what I had been hoping to do -- find a 10 bell and build a bass bone around it using 72H parts.

Quote from: Richard Tadaki on Jul 05, 2009, 03:02AMYou've done what I had been hoping to do -- find a 10 bell and build a bass bone around it using 72H parts.

I have to be honest and say that the bell is not all that great. I would say it plays like a heavier 72 bell. Of course I am not much of a bass player. It definatly plays like a Conn, feels like a Conn and sounds like a Conn.

From what I understand there are unused 10 bells out there. Bob Williams finished some 10 bells that never got put on horns and when the company was sold, these bells went to TN. Since no 10's were made in TN, I can only assume these bells were transfered to Callicio (I think that is how you spell it). They may own them or at least know where they are. I can not believe the guy who owned the company in TN would have thrown them away. So if you have any connections with the current owners and have the money they may part with one. I have no idea and do not really know who owns the company now.

Earl didn't make bass bells.  They were Conn bells.

Quote from: DaveAshley on Jul 05, 2009, 05:41AMEarl didn't make bass bells.  They were Conn bells.

You are right. He did not own the mandrels to make a bass bell, but as the person before mentioned, he bought the bells "raw" and unfinished. He altered the bells in some way. The 72H horn I bought the same time when I aquired the bell had a much lighter bell than the one that was finished by Williams. The Williams looks like a Conn with no ingraving. So essentially it is a Conn. Does the fact Williams "finished" it means anything? I also do not know if it was finished by Earl or Bob. Who knows.

I would love to talk to someone who owned a complete 10 and compare bells. I also understand Ed Klienhammer had a horn made with a Williams 10 bell. I heard it was on a Holton or something. Anyone heard of that?

I have seen pictures of that horn and he talked about it during a masterclass he did at my school.  I think there may be pictures on the MySpace page.
-Z

There is apparently a lot of VERY inaccurate and incorrect information being tossed around here by people who THINK they know what they're talking about.  I asked my friend Jay Armstrong about the 10's - he and his wife (at the time) were the ones who built Williams horns in Tennessee.

They received only one Model 10 bell when they bought the company; there was no collection of older bells; they passed that one 9-1/2" raw bell, and Jay's own complete Model 10 horn, on to Calicchio when they sold the company.  Earl made his model 10 bells on his own mandrel; only a few very early 10's may have had Conn bells.  Jay thinks Earl may have made as many as 20 or 30 Model 10's.

All of the TN bells were made by a bell maker whose name I don't know; Jay and his wife made every part except bells, and they did all of the assembly.  About ten Model 10 bells were made during that time, on Earl's original Model 10 bell mandel; they were stamped with the Donelson TN label on the bell tail.  Those were raw bells and were not assembled.  They were transferred to Calicchio, and I don't know where they might be now.
 
The later TN horns had a water key of Jay's design which he patented.  My Model 4 has that key.

Quote from: Doug Elliott on Jul 05, 2009, 10:47PMThey received only one Model 10 bell when they bought the company; there was no collection of older bells; they passed that one 9-1/2" raw bell, and Jay's own complete Model 10 horn, on to Calicchio when they sold the company.  Earl made his model 10 bells on his own mandrel; only a few very early 10's may have had Conn bells.  Jay thinks Earl may have made as many as 20 or 30 Model 10's.

He made only 12 complete 10's. I have also heard from multiple sources he used Conn bass bells. 72H bells to be specific. I also know that when the ITA convention was in Nashville a few people took a trip to Donelson to see the Williams stuff. I have multiple people saying they saw a "stack" (6 or 7) 10 bells. They even made them an offer and Jay would not sell.

http://www.myspace.com/williamstrombones

check out the section on the 10's. The information about the 10's being modified Conn bells is there.

Doug knows Jay, i'd be willing to bet his info could possibly be more accurate than what's on the website... anyone care to follow up?

Quote from: Exzaclee on Jul 06, 2009, 08:24AMDoug knows Jay, i'd be willing to bet his info could possibly be more accurate than what's on the website... anyone care to follow up?

I am not by any means saying Jay is lying. I am simply saying that from multiple sources the same numbers keep occurring. Not only from this website, but from many other Williams aficionados who all seem to concure that only 12 complete 10's were made and the bells were of Conn origin. I believe two are owned by a gentleman in LA with a considerable Williams collection and I recently discovered another from a forum member, who shall remain nameless, who owns a complete 10 and was kind enough to contact me and share info on bells. I told him that his horn belongs in a museum!