TromboneChat

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 02:49AMI don't remember this chapter having been preached on.  I don't think we've done Ezekiel at all to be honest.  I think Isaiah is normally the prophet of choice for sermon series.
Yes, better keep the really bad stuff from the limelight.

Quote from: BillO on Jul 06, 2017, 06:24AMYes, better keep the really bad stuff from the limelight.

Not all churches, including non-liturgical ones, "keep the bad stuff from the limelight." 

Baptists are historically non-liturgical, but the 18th century Baptist pastor, John Gill, preached through every chapter in the Bible.  Many churches have traditionally had adult education programs that studied large chunks of the Biblical text, although sadly in today's culture that likes everything in "lite" form, those are going away.  I grew up in a church where I did hear sermons on Ezekiel.  Never preached on the whole book myself, but I did preach on some chapters and a lot of other prophetic texts.

I think the key issue here is always does one believe in divine judgment or not?  If one believes that God is just in punishing sin and that we all deserve that same kind of judgement ourselves and it is only divine grace, which by definition can be selective, then one can call God "mean" as much as you want, but those of us who believe we deserve such judgement will have a very differentl perspective.

Quote from: John the Theologian on Jul 06, 2017, 06:56AMI think the key issue here is always does one believe in divine judgment or not?  If one believes that God is just in punishing sin and that we all deserve that same kind of judgement ourselves and it is only divine grace, which by definition can be selective, then one can call God "mean" as much as you want, but those of us who believe we deserve such judgement will have a very differently perspective.
Punishment has not been a truly effective deterrent.  Ever, and still is not.  As to the nature on God's usual punishment, death, it seems a little over the top.  There is little a dead person can do to correct their behavior.  With humans (and God should know this) the combination of education, patience and positive reinforcement has proven to be a far better method to modify behavior than punishment.  Especially death.

Quote from: BillO on Jul 06, 2017, 07:06AMPunishment has not been a truly effective deterrent.  Ever, and still is not.  As to the nature on God's usual punishment, death, it seems a little over the top.  There is little a dead person can do to correct their behavior.  With humans (and God should know this) the combination of education, patience and positive reinforcement has proven to be a far better method to modify behavior than punishment.  Especially death.

I'm reminded of what Martin Luther said to D. Erasmus in their famous debate on the bondage of the human will.  Luther said: "your thoughts about God are too human." 

The issues of deterrence is not key, in my POV.  Rather the issues are justice and grace.

The biblical text says that the wages of sin is death-- Romans 6:23.  When one takes that perspective, as historic Christianity has, it throws a much different light on things.

Quote from: BillO on Jul 06, 2017, 07:06AMPunishment has not been a truly effective deterrent.  Ever, and still is not.  As to the nature on God's usual punishment, death, it seems a little over the top.  There is little a dead person can do to correct their behavior.  With humans (and God should know this) the combination of education, patience and positive reinforcement has proven to be a far better method to modify behavior than punishment.  Especially death.

The last several generations has been raised with this philosophy of "positive reinforcement", less education, and see how this is working out for us. Out of control anarchy is what we have. No respect for law and order. No respect for anything actually.

I say we go back to what has worked in the past. Read Proverbs for the proper training.

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 07:32AMThe last several generations has been raised with this philosophy of "positive reinforcement", less education, and see how this is working out for us. Out of control anarchy is what we have. No respect for law and order. No respect for anything actually.


Data please.

Well, never mind.  You'll believe what you want.  But the world is currently the safest it's been in 10,000 years. 

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 07:32AMThe last several generations has been raised with this philosophy of "positive reinforcement", less education, and see how this is working out for us. Out of control anarchy is what we have. No respect for law and order. No respect for anything actually.

I say we go back to what has worked in the past. Read Proverbs for the proper training.
Well this is Dikersonism if I ever heard of one.

You'll note education is the very first item in the method I gave - as in more, not less.  Ignorance is not the way.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 06, 2017, 07:39AMData please.

Well, never mind.  You'll believe what you want.  But the world is currently the safest it's been in 10,000 years. 



what country have you been living in?

You think this scourge of shooting police officers, assassinating them really, is normal?

Quote from: BillO on Jul 06, 2017, 07:57AMWell this is Dikersonism if I ever heard of one.

You'll note education is the very first item in the method I gave - as in more, not less.  Ignorance is not the way.

You call it more education, but I call it less education.

You can't judge education by how much the government sinks funds into it. We've dumped trillions into our public education since the 50's and 60's, and look what we have now to show for it. Yet, every budget year, the demos say they need more funds.

After trillions, our public education is a joke.

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 08:27AMwhat country have you been living in?

You think this scourge of shooting police officers, assassinating them really, is normal?



It's not a scourge.

You have to look at the data.

Here's one of many, many sources. 

QuoteFBI Releases 2015 Crime Statistics
After two years of decline, the estimated number of violent crimes in the nation increased 3.9 percent in 2015 when compared with 2014 data, according to FBI figures released today. Property crimes dropped 2.6 percent, marking the 13th straight year the collective estimates for these offenses declined.
13 straight years of decline in crime.

Check this link:
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/06/mass-shootings-arent-on-the-rise.html

Or look at this one:
http://curry.virginia.edu/research/projects/violence-in-schools/national-statistics

Here's a couple hundred years of data:
http://www.haciendapub.com/medicalsentinel/homicide-and-suicide-america-1900-1998

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 08:30AMYou call it more education, but I call it less education.

You can't judge education by how much the government sinks funds into it. We've dumped trillions into our public education since the 50's and 60's, and look what we have now to show for it. Yet, every budget year, the demos say they need more funds.

After trillions, our public education is a joke.
No, I mean the method requires more education.  I'm not saying anything about the education system.

Here's a great graph from Pew Research:

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/10/21/gun-homicides-steady-after-decline-in-90s-suicide-rate-edges-up/

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 12:50AMI was hoping to start a discussion about whether ceremonies have any spiritual effectiveness if they are practices by unfaithful people.

No one was interested.
You'll need to grab a fellow believer for that one. The answer is simple and dismissive from those outside of the religion club.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 12:50AMQuote from: MoominDave on Jul 05, 2017, 05:46AMIs this deed (reported incredibly casually and incidentally) how Yahweh is perceived to act in general in these books? It doesn't seem so to me - there seems no purpose to it - and the bible usually finds a better rationalisation for miserable things than this. Do we wonder if perhaps Ezekiel's wife just died out of nowhere and he made use of that sad fact in his prophetic career, ascribing it to prophecy when it was just a human tragedy?

No, I don't wonder about how it would look from an atheistic PoV.  There's too much to think about from my PoV
Actually, I was trying to see from a believing POV here - it seems enough not of a piece with the rest (and Ezekiel seems out-there enough in his public displays) that it seems to me that it is reasonable for a believer to wonder if Ezekiel was doing what I outlined above.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 06, 2017, 10:57AMYou'll need to grab a fellow believer for that one. The answer is simple and dismissive from those outside of the religion club.

that was what I was hoping for.

QuoteActually, I was trying to see from a believing POV here - it seems enough not of a piece with the rest (and Ezekiel seems out-there enough in his public displays) that it seems to me that it is reasonable for a believer to wonder if Ezekiel was doing what I outlined above.

Sorry I misunderstood you.

I think its going to depend on the christians PoV.  Some approach scripture as though God is very active in the world running it for his purposes like I proposed, so might apply something like my reasoning.  Others who don't see God and the bible the same way would apply different reasoning.

This thread is supposed to be a discussion of the text of the bible. We have managed to keep the signal to noise ratio fairly high.  I'd ask for your cooperation in maintaining this.

So can we keep entries focused on discussing the text. 

Can we move Tangents to another thread.

thanks.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 02:46PMThis thread is supposed to be a discussion of the text of the bible. We have managed to keep the signal to noise ratio fairly high.  I'd ask for your cooperation in maintaining this.

So can we keep entries focused on discussing the text. 

Can we move Tangents to another thread.

thanks.
Where do you see it going off track?

whether or not society is deteriorating
American education and crime
fossils

But I value more people participating too, and that means I don't get to define what is signal and what is noise.

These things came out of the discussion.  How do we decide where to draw the line?

Quote from: BillO on Jul 06, 2017, 06:11AMEzekiel 25 text

...

1) Lots of God’s grace and love is being poured out in this one.

Is this the "Snarky" you mentioned?

I think you joined us after we saw God's grace and blessing on Judah.  Yes, God does play favourites.  And that's not necessarily fair.  But even his favourites have used up his patience and are now (then) seeing the righteous judicial nature of God and they and others are getting to know/experience that he is The Lord.

Quote2) I guess we should add “Infinitely vengeful” to any accurate description of God

Fair enough. Is that another attribute you want to add to the list or will Righteous, Wrath, and Jealous cover it.  I noted that all his attributes were considered infinite.

Quote3) It would appear that the Philistines are a real thorn in God’s side.  One wonders why 'he' created them in the first place.  They’ve been nothing but trouble for Israel right from the beginning and are still at it now!!  I guess God's bullying did not work after all.

They weren't really a thorn in God's side.  You're forgetting the Aseity attribute.  I agree that wondering why God created them is a good idea.  I think as a test for the Israelites sounds like a reasonable answer. 

I'm not sure why you think God needs to use bullying or what its got to do with the Philistines.

Quote4) Besides their treatment of Judah, God states he’s taking these actions against the above mentioned peoples to show them 'he’s' the Lord.  A mainstay behavior of the typical bully.  I have to ask though, God has been doling out vengeance and wrath since the get-go and it so far has not proved to be an ineffective way to get his creations to do 'his' bidding, so why does 'he' persist?  How about trying patience, education and positive reinforcement?

God tends to start of being nice and then saves the tough guy approach for last.

Quote5) I'm still waiting to see some of God’s acts of love and benevolence.  Perhaps they’ll show up in later books.

As I mentioned they were on show earlier.  The prophets mostly show God's judicial side but even Isaiah had soem bright spots. But God's nice side will also show up later, God will give people another chance.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 10:41PM  I noted that all his attributes were considered infinite.


This is the part I have trouble with.

I think the evidence for that is in Webster's.

By that, I mean the only reason to think so is because we consider that part of the definition of a god.

That doesn't mean a real God, should one exist, would be forced to conform to it.  He/She/It could very well have some real limitations (like Superman and kryptonite.) 

If that is inconceivable, then I think we are insisting on dealing only with our mental construct of a god. 

And that last post was a tangent.  In my defense, I was thinking I was over on the other God thread.  Oops. 

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 06, 2017, 10:41PMI'm not sure why you think God needs to use bullying or what its got to do with the Philistines.

"Behold, I will stretch out my hand against the Philistines" - sounds s bit like bullying to me.  And this is not the only incident where God acted against them.  My point was more along the lines of God's 'tough' approach does not seem to work.  The Israelites and the Philistines are still not getting along after millennia of God's harsh judgement.

Quote from: BillO on Yesterday at 06:35 AM"Behold, I will stretch out my hand against the Philistines" - sounds s bit like bullying to me.  And this is not the only incident where God acted against them.  My point was more along the lines of God's 'tough' approach does not seem to work.  The Israelites and the Philistines are still not getting along after millennia of God's harsh judgement.

I was interested in seeing how bullying related to the legal/justice processes.  Wiki says legal bullying is where you raise vexatious processes.  Sounds justice and bullying could be seen to have similar characteristics, but your classification differs depending on your position.

And given that God's actions didn't stop the animosity between the Israeli's and the Philistines I conclude that that wasn't his purpose.

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 04:52 AMAnd that last post was a tangent.  In my defense, I was thinking I was over on the other God thread.  Oops. 

I replied in the God thread.

Quote from: drizabone on Yesterday at 03:55 PMAnd given that God's actions didn't stop the animosity between the Israeli's and the Philistines I conclude that that wasn't his purpose.

Driz, this is a fine example of one of the worst problems with religion.  It gives you the ability to just pass on taking, in this case, intellectual responsibility.  "The lord works in mysterious ways"  has been the frequent cry of the religious when they can't explain things or won't take responsibility for their 'faith', or in the worst cases, their own lives.
 
Or, would you like to take a crack at God's purpose in his constantly punishing the Philistines for their pestering the Israelites yet still allowing the animosity to continue?

I mean, 3,400 years is a long time to keep this little antagonistic project going, don't you think?  Maybe it's time to wrap it up and get on with something else.

Ezekiel 26 text
Ezekiel 27 text
Ezekiel 28 text

Highlights

 - Tyre in trouble too

Summary

Chapter 26
 - Yahweh says: Tyre should not have been pleased that Jerusalem fell, seeing in it a competitor eliminated
 - Because of this Nebuchadnezzar will come and break them too
 - General outlines of how a city falls to an invader

Chapter 27
 - Tyre was a great and beautiful city
 - 'Tis a pity

Chapter 28
 - The prince of Tyre fell for the same reason as the city of Tyre
 - The king of Tyre also
 - Sidon doomed too
 - When the people of Israel return, they will have security

Questions and Observations

1) 11th year - 587 BC
2) The Romans had something to differ on on the final point

Ezekiel 29 text
Ezekiel 30 text
Ezekiel 31 text
Ezekiel 32 text

Highlights

 - And now Egypt

Summary

Chapter 29
 - Pharoah and Egypt will fall too
 - Yahweh doesn't like that the Egyptians have their own version of how the Nile came to exist, so he will spoil it for them
 - Egypt will be empty for 40 years, after which its people will return, and form a lowly kingdom
 - 17 years later, Ezekiel adds: Nebuchadnezzar had to work hard to take Tyre, and so Yahweh decrees that Egypt will be an easy reward for him

Chapter 30
 - Egypt and its supporters will fall
 - Nebuchadnezzar will do this
 - Egyptian religion will disappear

Chapter 31
 - Pharoah is mighty
 - But others that are mighty have fallen
 - And Pharoah will too

Chapter 32
 - Pharoah and Egypt persist arrogant and strong
 - Yahweh doesn't like this
 - He will end Egypt, like he did Assyria and other nations; or rather, like Ezekiel claims he did by proxy

Questions and Observations

1) 10th year, 10th month - slightly before the previous chapter.
2) I don't think the prophesied 40-year depeopling of Egypt came to pass?
3) But then the last portion of ch 29 jumps a long way forwards - 27th year - 571 BC. We have seen very little claiming to come from that particular mid-exile moment thus far.
4) Ezekiel seems to talk as if very much in favour of the Babylonians in some ways. Nebuchadnezzar had trouble taking Tyre, so he deserves an easy Egypt...
5) Ezekiel very much wants Egypt to fall to Babylon. History tells us that this was wishful thinking.

Quote from: BillO on Today at 07:13 AMDriz, this is a fine example of one of the worst problems with religion.  It gives you the ability to just pass on taking, in this case, intellectual responsibility.  "The lord works in mysterious ways"  has been the frequent cry of the religious when they can't explain things or won't take responsibility for their 'faith', or in the worst cases, their own lives.
 
Or, would you like to take a crack at God's purpose in his constantly punishing the Philistines for their pestering the Israelites yet still allowing the animosity to continue?

I mean, 3,400 years is a long time to keep this little antagonistic project going, don't you think?  Maybe it's time to wrap it up and get on with something else.

You will never be able to 'explain things' according to God's Purpose. I know this is why you're so antagonistic towards God. It's your Cross to Bear. Hopefully, one day, you will be able to understand Faith and a whole new world of understanding will be opened up for you.

Quote from: ddickerson on Today at 07:56 AMYou will never be able to 'explain things' according to God's Purpose.There we go again.  According to you, some bad tempered, easily offended and viciously wrathful supreme being is pulling your strings, not telling you why, and you're totally okay with it!

QuoteI know this is why you're so antagonistic towards God.Not just this.  Not by a long shot.  In fact, I would say I couldn't really give a tinker's damn about this 'God's purpose' religious people talk about.  It just amazes me that God's followers don't seem to have a clue what this 'purpose' is, but they follow just the same - very lemming like.

QuoteIt's your Cross to Bear.See above.

QuoteHopefully, one day, you will be able to understand Faith and a whole new world of understanding will be opened up for you.Gee, I wouldn't hold my breath on that one DD.

Quote from: BillO on Today at 09:58 AMThere we go again.  According to you, some bad tempered, easily offended and viciously wrathful supreme being is pulling your strings, not telling you why, and you're totally okay with it!

That's what you see in God which shows that your understanding is nil. The proof of God is there for all to see.

QuoteIt just amazes me that God's followers don't seem to have a clue what this 'purpose' is,
No, you're the one that don't have a clue. Don't assume that since you don't get it, there is nothing to get.

I think that we're off topic again. Back to the thread.

Quote from: ddickerson on Jul 08, 2017, 02:21PMThat's what you see in God which shows that your understanding is nil. The proof of God is there for all to see.
No, you're the one that don't have a clue. Don't assume that since you don't get it, there is nothing to get.Okay, my ears are open - explain it to me.

QuoteI think that we're off topic again. Back to the thread.If you like you can answer me in the God thread.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 08, 2017, 07:27AMEzekiel 26 text
Ezekiel 27 text
Ezekiel 28 text

you're back, all re-energised.

QuoteHighlights

...

Chapter 28
 - The prince of Tyre fell for the same reason as the city of Tyre
 - The king of Tyre also
 - Sidon doomed too
 - When the people of Israel return, they will have security

Chapter 28 is more unusual than average for Ezekiel, which is saying something:

- the King of Tyre is described as though he was in Eden, all dressed up as a significant person, and then as being appointed a guardian cherub on God's holy mountain and then cast down in disgrace. This was potentially Satan/Lucifer who rebelled against God and was cast down to the earth (Eden) where he tried to trash God's brand new creation.
- so is this a reference to a angelic being who was in Eden, had a high position but was cast down using the King as a metaphor? or is it a description of the King using angelic metaphors?
- I'm not sure.

Quote2) The Romans had something to differ on on the final point

- but that assumes that God meant the return from Babylon and not some future event.

Quote from: BillO on Jul 08, 2017, 07:13AMDriz, this is a fine example of one of the worst problems with religion.  It gives you the ability to just pass on taking, in this case, intellectual responsibility.  "The lord works in mysterious ways"  has been the frequent cry of the religious when they can't explain things or won't take responsibility for their 'faith', or in the worst cases, their own lives.

When I don't know something I find its better to admit it rather than to make it up as I go along.  (I have learnt this from experience )

Its reasonable and responsible.  That's the case whether its God or gravity.  (now does that work by warping space or is it a force between 2 masses and does it need strings?).  Not knowing either answer fully is not intellectually irresponsible, its just shows the limit of my knowledge and understanding. 

And it also isn't indicative of a failing in the topic that I don't know everything about.  Anymore than the theory of gravity is suspect because I don't know all the details of string theory, or even if string theory is relevant to gravity.
 
QuoteOr, would you like to take a crack at God's purpose in his constantly punishing the Philistines for their pestering the Israelites yet still allowing the animosity to continue?

I mean, 3,400 years is a long time to keep this little antagonistic project going, don't you think?  Maybe it's time to wrap it up and get on with something else.

I'm pretty sure that the Philistines were wiped out, probably by the Babylonians 2500 years ago.  So the project was wrapped up back then.

ISTM that the current conflict in the Middle East is caused by fear and nationalism mixed with religion.  Too many people not liking each other wanting to live in the same place.  I don't think that this conflict is a divinely commanded one like the conflict with the Philistines in the Old Testament, so its not something that has a declared purpose anymore than anything else that happens in the world.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 08, 2017, 07:44AMEzekiel 29 text
Ezekiel 30 text
Ezekiel 31 text
Ezekiel 32 text

...

2) I don't think the prophesied 40-year depeopling of Egypt came to pass?

I couldn't see any archaeological evidence for or against.

Quote4) Ezekiel seems to talk as if very much in favour of the Babylonians in some ways. Nebuchadnezzar had trouble taking Tyre, so he deserves an easy Egypt...
5) Ezekiel very much wants Egypt to fall to Babylon. History tells us that this was wishful thinking.

Ezekiel was just the messenger

What about The Battle of Carchemish? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carchemish

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 08, 2017, 10:58PMyou're back, all re-energised.

Busy busy busy! But will be less so after next weekend for a while.

I have had for some days now a weird migraine-type vision disturbance in my right eye, which is making screen time a bit painful. The optician says all is normal and that this will go away by itself in a few days. I certainly hope so! But this is discouraging me from detailed posting at the moment.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 09, 2017, 12:32AMI couldn't see any archaeological evidence for or against.

Ezekiel was just the messenger

What about The Battle of Carchemish? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carchemish

Happened 17 years before the date that we are told that Ezekiel was writing.

Quote from: MoominDave on Jul 09, 2017, 01:24AM

I have had for some days now a weird migraine-type vision disturbance in my right eye, which is making screen time a bit painful. The optician says all is normal and that this will go away by itself in a few days.

Did they dilate and really check it out?

I have something like that going on now, though it's much improved from the onset.  My eye doctor says it is a posterior vitreous detachment, when the jelly at the back of the eye pulls loose a bit.  There's no treatment and it fixes itself eventually, but there's floaters aplenty in the meantime, and it was migraine like when it started. 

Ezekiel 33 text

Highlights

 - A few reminders and the start of the Exile.

Summary

 - God explains the reasons for the deaths of everyone who'll die in the Babylonian invasion.
 - If a watchman sees the armies coming and blows his trumpet and people fail to heed the warning—hey, they deserve to die.
 - But, if the watchman fails to blow the trumpet, he'll be held responsible for those people's deaths. But they're still going to die, because they're sinners.
 - (And if we've forgotten from the beginning of the book) Ezekiel is Israel's has a watchman.
 - When people turn to Ezekiel asking him what they can do to remedy their sins and offenses, he says, "Turn away from sin!"
 - He reiterates the point that a righteous person who goes bad won't be forgiven because of how good they were in the past. But the same thing goes for the wicked: if they turn good, their pasts won't be held against them.
 - Although the people claim God isn't just, it's actually their ways that are unjust.

 - Ezekiel now discusses how a man came to him after the fall of Jerusalem bringing him the news that it had finally been destroyed in the siege.
 - Ezekiel says he was able to talk. (Remember, back in 3:26, God told him he was going to make him silent but that his silence would be released when the exile  began.
 - He prophesies saying that the people in Judah think God's given them the land, because he gave it to Abraham and they're his descendants.
 - But that just ain't so, says Ezekiel—they're too given to eating meat with the blood still in it (not kosher), worshipping idols, and committing adultery.
 - God says that even the people left in the ruins will die by the sword, and wild animals will devour the bodies of the Judean country folk. The land will be a desolate waste.
 - The people, says God, come to Ezekiel and listen to his words about love and goodness and pretend to heed them, but they're actually greedy and corrupt on the inside.  - To them, Ezekiel is only like a performer of love songs.
 - When everything Ezekiel says comes true, they'll recognize him for a genuine prophet. You can just picture Ezekiel shaking his fist and muttering, "just you wait!"

Questions and Observations

1) This chapter reminds us of Ezekiel's things that were stated in the early part of the book.  Maybe they were significant, or maybe the start of the exile was?

2) Don't rest on your laurels. Or think its too late to change

3) Ezekiel as a pop-star?  Babylon's Got Talent.

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 04:18PMDid they dilate and really check it out?
The optician had a good long peer, tested for eyeball pressure, and ran a peripheral vision perception test. He declared that I do not have a detached retina, and that the pressure is perfect (so not Glaucoma), in fact on the low end of normal rather than the high being examined for. He didn't dilate it.

On that basis, he declared it a migraine aura. It's basically like looking through a grey fog in the right eye, and there's some mild aching around it. Left eye is normal, just the usual myopia and astigmatism corrected with glasses since I was a teenager. I was told to expect it to spontaneously resolve in the next week, and to come back if it doesn't. I will ring them on Thursday if things are no better, and get them to really inventory the thing if so.

This has been quite a medical year so far... Hopefully I can trade it in for a year of robust health later in life! 37 is a bit early to start falling to bits...

Quote from: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 04:18PMI have something like that going on now, though it's much improved from the onset.  My eye doctor says it is a posterior vitreous detachment, when the jelly at the back of the eye pulls loose a bit.  There's no treatment and it fixes itself eventually, but there's floaters aplenty in the meantime, and it was migraine like when it started. 

Another label to check out and ponder over, thanks for the info. Just checking it out online - the symptoms don't seem a great fit to mine (described above) at first glance, but it's certainly something to bear in mind. I don't have floaters or flashes of light, and I wouldn't describe the fog effect as a cobweb effect, though it's a possible match. I do have a little pain (PVD is described as painless), but that may be just eye strain. Who knows.

This was Ezekiel 33, not 34. Link corrected below:

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 09, 2017, 08:07PMEzekiel 33 text
Quote from: drizabone on Jul 09, 2017, 08:07PM - Ezekiel now discusses how a man came to him after the fall of Jerusalem bringing him the news that it had finally been destroyed in the siege.

12th year, 10th month. 586 BC, which matches the fall of Jerusalem. There's some disagreement about whether the fall was in 587 or 586 BC, but it's evident that this is the event Ezekiel refers to. It seems hard to imagine that it would have taken a year for the news to reach Babylon.

12th year, 10th month?

Not sure if you're asking for an explanation of the phrase or if you're hinting to me that I'm being naive in my chronology! The dating in question is in v21 of Ezekiel 33: "In the twelfth year of our exile, in the tenth month, on the fifth day of the month".

Ezekiel's date scheme seems to run from (cf. Ezekiel 1) the date of the exile of King Jehoiachin/Jeconiah.
From Babylonian records, we know that Jerusalem fell on 16th March 597 BC, and that Jehoiachin was subsequently taken into captivity. However, before we were aware of Babylonian records, 19th century biblical scholars deduced that it happened a year earlier, in the spring of 598 BC. This conflict does not seem to have been entirely resolved, although the much more chronologically detailed nature of the Babylonian input seems to have resulted in 597 being a more trusted date.

In general we need to be careful about whether "nth year" means n or n+1 (there was a systematic difference earlier, between Israel and Judah), but it seems pretty clear that it means n here. So the 5th day of the 10th month of the 12th year means 11 years, 10 months, 5 days on from March 16th 597 BC. Which takes us to January 21st 585 BC, more or less, using the Babylonian date, which is more-or-less consistent with Jerusalem falling for the second time in the summer of 586 BC (587 BC being the other option, to match the discrepancy in the first fall), although that seems slow travel for such important news. Lots of people have thought about this, and still there is uncertainty.

It is rather confusing when one tries to peg things truly accurately using these dates. I'm approaching them more as general guidance than as something to be implicitly relied upon.

It was the explanation I was looking for.

Thanks Dave.

Ezekiel 34 text

Highlights

 - Ezekiel compares shepherds

Summary

 - God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the wicked shepherds (leaders) who've been misleading Israel. They're clothing themselves in the wool and eating the curds, but they won't care for the flock.
 - They scattered the sheep and let them become food for wild animals.
 - God's going to hold these shepherds accountable for all this death and destruction, since they failed to lead the flock and cared for themselves instead of their "sheep."

 - God says he'll prevent the shepherds from guiding the sheep, and will remove them; he's taking over as the new shepherd.
 - He'll gather the sheep together from the places where they've been scattered. He'll take care of the weak and injured, and will lead them into good grazing land in  - Israel, where they'll lie down. But he'll punish the strong and the unjust.
 - God says he'll judge between the rams and goats, separating the good and bad members of the flock.
 - He asks them why they need to trample good pasture and muddy the water with their feet.
 - He'll save the weak, lean sheep from the overfed aggressive sheep, and David will be himself the single shepherd and ruler over the peaceful remainder.
 - God will make the land really fruitful and nice, ridding it of savage animals. Everyone will return from exile and it'll all be just great, with the people finally obedient and down with God.

Questions and Observations

1) So when Jesus comes along and say's that he's the good shepherd and the current priests are bad shepherds, what do you think they think he is talking about?

2) What do you think Ezekiel means when he says that God will set up David as the shepherd over his sheep?

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 10, 2017, 07:37PM - God tells Ezekiel to prophesy against the wicked shepherds (leaders) who've been misleading Israel. They're clothing themselves in the wool and eating the curds, but they won't care for the flock. This appeals to me as a truism.  I see this happening now.  It reminds me of the role of the corporate raider or new CEO - something I have some experience with.

Quote - They scattered the sheep and let them become food for wild animals.Again, the analog of the new CEO coming in and selling off pieces of the company.

Quote - God says he'll prevent the shepherds from guiding the sheep, and will remove them; he's taking over as the new shepherd.More premonition of Jesus and a new take on religion?

Quote - He'll gather the sheep together from the places where they've been scattered. He'll take care of the weak and injured, and will lead them into good grazing land in  - Israel, where they'll lie down. But he'll punish the strong and the unjust.Looking at modern times I'm not sure God ever got around to this.

Quote - God says he'll judge between the rams and goats, separating the good and bad members of the flock.
 - He asks them why they need to trample good pasture and muddy the water with their feet.
 - He'll save the weak, lean sheep from the overfed aggressive sheepI feel we are still waiting for this.  "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."

Quoteand David will be himself the single shepherd and ruler over the peaceful remainder.Possibly predicting the advent of two religions?  Judaism and Christianity?

Quote - God will make the land really fruitful and nice, ridding it of savage animals.Donald Trump?

QuoteEveryone will return from exile and it'll all be just great, with the people finally obedient and down with God. Just guessing, but is this still to come?

Quote from: BillO on Jul 10, 2017, 09:08PMThis appeals to me as a truism.  I see this happening now.  It reminds me of the role of the corporate raider or new CEO - something I have some experience with.
Again, the analog of the new CEO coming in and selling off pieces of the company.

if the CEO's did it for their own benefit, then I think it fits.

QuoteMore premonition of Jesus and a new take on religion?
Looking at modern times I'm not sure God ever got around to this.
I feel we are still waiting for this.  "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth."
Possibly predicting the advent of two religions?  Judaism and Christianity?
 Just guessing, but is this still to come?


I think still future for these

QuoteDonald Trump?

I don't think he rates a biblical reference

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 11, 2017, 02:29PMI don't think he rates a biblical reference
He may rate as a savage animal though.

Ezekiel 35 text

Highlights

 - Judgement against Edom

Summary

 - God condemns Mt. Seir (Edom), saying he's going to make them a desolate waste because they held a perpetual enmity against Israel and took advantage of their calamity.
 - He will deal with them for coveting Israel and Judah and hating their people.
 - Edom set themselves up against God and thought it would be able to rush in now that Israel's been devastated.
 - The rest of the world will be rejoicing when Edom is destroyed.
 - Then they will know that God is Yahweh

Questions and Observations

1) Lots of God's judgements in this and the preceding chapters have included the purpose of making known to the condemned that God is Yahweh (or maybe that should be Yahweh is God)

Ezekiel 36 text

Highlights

 - Reassurance for Israel

Summary

 - God reasssures the mountains of Israel. Other nations were thinking they could come in and take over those mountains, like Edom. But God's not gonna let that happen; he'll make sure that the mountains will stay in shape and will provide fruit for the people when they return.
 - The towns will be repopulated, and the animals will come back too.
 - God says that he'll never deprive the mountains of children and inhabitants again.
 - They won't suffer the scorn of other people who claim that the land of Israel devours its children.

 - The people defiled the land with uncleanness—like, God says, a menstrual period.
 - So God destroyed the land as punishment for idol worship and the other usual culprits.
 - God says he isn't going to let them return for their sake, but for the sake of his own name. He's got a reputation to uphold.
 - God will cleanse the people with water sprinkled on them, give them a new heart and a new spirit to replace the old, and put his spirit in them to make sure they follow his laws.
 - He won't let the people starve and will make sure their land and fruit flourishes.
 - The land, which had been laid waste like Eden after the fall, will be restored, and the people will return to rebuild their cities.
 - All the other nations will see God's power through this amazing comeback.


Questions and Observations

1) Ezekiel says that God will restore Israel despite their wickedness.  This is a restatement of the New Covenant promised in Jerimiah 31. I think that non-believers tend to see the bible as justifying the winners and the good guys, but here its saying that the good guys are the bad guys too.  I'm curious how non-believers see this working: both from the  perspective of there understanding of how things are, but also from how they think it would work from inside the Bible story? And there's an opportunity for you to critique us according to what you think the bible says we are supposed to believe/do.

Quote from: drizabone on Jul 11, 2017, 08:39PMEzekiel 35 text

Highlights

 - Judgement against Edom
One of the things that distinguishes God from the universe.

QuoteSummary

 - God condemns Mt. Seir (Edom), saying he's going to make them a desolate waste because they held a perpetual enmity against Israel and took advantage of their calamity.
 - He will deal with them for coveting Israel and Judah and hating their people.Jordan is still at loggerheads with Israel.  This is similar to the Philistines (now the Palestinians).  These conflicts have not ended no matter who came in and claimed the land.  God's methods just don't seem to work.

 
Quote - The rest of the world will be rejoicing when Edom is destroyed.(snark alert!!!) Yes, I heard the indigenous North Americans threw a party.


Quote - Then they will know that God is Yahweh  Really?  Was there some question about that?  Also, shouldn't that be YHWH?

Quote1) Lots of God's judgements in this and the preceding chapters have included the purpose of making known to the condemned that God is Yahweh (or maybe that should be Yahweh is God)
Is there a distinction???

Quote from: BillO on Jul 12, 2017, 09:19PMReally?  Was there some question about that?  Also, shouldn't that be YHWH?

At the time there was.

I think the expression is meant to mean that everyone will know that it is YHWH who is God and not Baal or Enkidu or any of the idols that they had been worshipping.

And even today most people do not recognise the The Lord is God.

(Spelling corrected)

Quote
Is there a distinction???

Probably not. Its just me being pedantic.