TTF "Read Da Book": The Christian Bible

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ttf_Baron von Bone
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Post by ttf_Baron von Bone »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 25, 2017, 09:32AMI hope there's a better scholarly response than Wenham's.
 
Read the Amazon reviews.  Even the most favorable ones are a bit skeptical of whether he made the case - and that's exactly what he's doing, trying to make a case.
 
He's an apologist, not a theologian.  These appear to be nonintersecting sets.
Makes me wonder about peer review in theology. It's developed a lot of problems even in hard science, so I suspect it's a lot more sketchy in the humanities and likely yet more problematic in theology given that the fundamental nature of science/peer review is keeping us from fooling ourselves/keeping bias in check, and while I know a lot of people who go into academic religion are non-believers, it seems particularly disposed to bias and indisposed to means of bias correction.
ttf_MoominDave
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Jeremiah 9 text

Highlights

 - Same again...

Summary

 - Jeremiah continues to grieve for the morals of Judah; he laments
 - He asks Yahweh why. Yahweh says "You know why".
 - And to send for the women, who know how to wail properly
 - Also that no one should take pride in things that they do, because it will all be eclipsed by the coming apocalypse

Questions and Observations

1) I don't know about you, but I think I've understood Jeremiah's point of view thoroughly by this point. How much longer will he keep repeating the same stuff for?
ttf_drizabone
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 25, 2017, 10:39AMI listened to the entire lecture.  I rarely do that, I prefer the speed of reading, but I'm home sick without a lot of energy.

If JTT is correct that this is the best defense for Paul being a faithful (in the sense of accurate) follower, then I have to change my own mind, which has been on the fence on this issue.  Wenham is not convincing, and if this is the best that can be done, I consider the opposite case to have been definitively made. 

can you send me a quick summary of the main points and why you weren't convinced? thanks
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: drizabone on May 25, 2017, 02:28PMcan you send me a quick summary of the main points and why you weren't convinced? thanks

Dude!!!!!!!!!  It was a 51 minute long lecture to a class of religious students.  And it was several hours ago.

Here's what I remember, after having eaten, napped, and passed a kidney stone:

He admits that Jesus's ministry is mostly about the Kingdom of God, which Paul doesn't mention, and that Paul appears to have no knowledge of the birth story, the miracles, the parables, or pretty much anything that that Jesus talked about.  He does believe that Paul "met" Jesus (in the road to Damascus incident) and derives his knowledge of Jesus from that.  He points out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence:  Paul would not have to talk about Jesus's life because all his followers would know these things; Paul only addressed problems as they arose.  He says it does not make sense that anyone who'd met Jesus that way would deliberately invent a religion and misconstrue Jesus's teachings, so common sense tells us to accept Paul's version.  He says Paul is more of a theologian and a preacher to gentiles, while Jesus was simpler and spoke to the Jews, so of course the message would appear different (evidence is in 2 Peter where Peter says Paul is hard to understand.)  His points of congruence are:  the comment that Jesus is "born of a woman," in ?Thessalonians? which could mean that Paul was aware of the birth story but chose not to mention it; the reference to a last supper in 1 Corinthians; and a vague reference that could mean Paul was aware of the Sermon on the Mount.  Oh, and the fact that Paul writing in Greek nevertheless uses the word Abba once, which is Aramaic, and must mean that Jesus saw himself as divine.  Basically that was it.

He's a rather good lecturer and I can see him being convincing to a religion class where people are predisposed not to question. 
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 25, 2017, 03:42PMDude!!!!!!!!!  It was a 51 minute long lecture to a class of religious students.  And it was several hours ago.

I'm lazy.  Thanks.

Quote...in 2 Peter where Peter says Paul is hard to understand.

I can follow Paul much easier than Peter. I think that's because Peter is much more into Jewish symbols and it helps to uinderstand them to understand what he means.

Quote...
He's a rather good lecturer and I can see him being convincing to a religion class where people are predisposed not to question. 

I would very much like to have been there to ask him questions.

And as an aside, I had a Greek primer written by his Dad

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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: MoominDave on May 25, 2017, 02:11PM
...

1) I don't know about you, but I think I've understood Jeremiah's point of view thoroughly by this point. How much longer will he keep repeating the same stuff for?

There has been a flow to the jeremiad that we haven't noted, probably because we're doing chapter by chapter

ch 3   - Israel had broken the covenant but was offered hope if they repented
ch 4-6 - they've missed their chance to repent, the enemy is advancing and judgement is inevitable
ch 7.. - describes how their religion has become apostate and the punishment that will follow

It looks like the Jeremiad changes topic a bit in ch 11
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 10 text

Highlights

 - another diatribe on the worthlessness of idols and the consequences of worshipping them

Summary

 - God tells Israel not to follow the ways of foreign nations.  They have useless customs.
 - Idols are just the work of human hands and not real gods. They're like scarecrows in a cucumber field, incapable of evil or good.
 - But God is real, not like those man made idols. The people who encourage idol worship are fools.
 - The gods who didn't make the earth and heavens are false, temporary, and headed for destruction.
 - Jeremiah says that it's God who made the world and who controls nature—lightning, rain, mist, wind, everything.
 - Idols are just worthless delusions and will waste away, unlike the one who formed the earth and is Israel's.
 - Once Babylon conquers Judea, it will carry them away.
 - Jeremiah cries out as the voice of all of Israel, saying that his tent is broken and his children have been lost and killed.
 - Israel's like a flock, scattered because of its clueless shepherds who failed to follow God.
 - The Babylonians are going to destroy Judah so that it will be a place where wild jackals come to hang out.
 - Jeremiah says that he knows God directs the steps of human beings and that mortals are helpless without him.
 - He asks God to correct him and his people — but not with anger, because that won't work.
 - Instead, pour out his wrath on some other nations, like the enemies of Israel.


Questions and Observations

1) we get it.
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 25, 2017, 03:42PMDude!!!!!!!!!  It was a 51 minute long lecture to a class of religious students.  And it was several hours ago.

Here's what I remember, after having eaten, napped, and passed a kidney stone:

He admits that Jesus's ministry is mostly about the Kingdom of God, which Paul doesn't mention, and that Paul appears to have no knowledge of the birth story, the miracles, the parables, or pretty much anything that that Jesus talked about.  He does believe that Paul "met" Jesus (in the road to Damascus incident) and derives his knowledge of Jesus from that.  He points out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence:  Paul would not have to talk about Jesus's life because all his followers would know these things; Paul only addressed problems as they arose.  He says it does not make sense that anyone who'd met Jesus that way would deliberately invent a religion and misconstrue Jesus's teachings, so common sense tells us to accept Paul's version.  He says Paul is more of a theologian and a preacher to gentiles, while Jesus was simpler and spoke to the Jews, so of course the message would appear different (evidence is in 2 Peter where Peter says Paul is hard to understand.)  His points of congruence are:  the comment that Jesus is "born of a woman," in ?Thessalonians? which could mean that Paul was aware of the birth story but chose not to mention it; the reference to a last supper in 1 Corinthians; and a vague reference that could mean Paul was aware of the Sermon on the Mount.  Oh, and the fact that Paul writing in Greek nevertheless uses the word Abba once, which is Aramaic, and must mean that Jesus saw himself as divine.  Basically that was it.

He's a rather good lecturer and I can see him being convincing to a religion class where people are predisposed not to question. 

BTW, sorry to hear about your bout with a kidney stone.  Been there, done that, and I know it's no fun.

Not exactly sure what DW actually said in the lecture you listened to, but on your first point, Paul actually does mention kingdom in some places-- Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 15:24,50; Galatians 5:21, 2 Thessalonians 1: 5, Colossians 1:13 (I accept the Pauline authorship of Colossians), and some other places.  However, Paul far more often uses phrases such as the reign of Christ, the Lordship of Christ, the supremacy of Christ, etc. which are cognate ideas to develop the notion of divine rule and I'm sure that a veteran NT scholar such as Wenham would have discussed that, although I haven't read him on this topic for some time.  What the issue of the kingdom does demonstrate is that while there clearly is a difference of vocabulary and language be:tween Jesus and Paul on topics such as this, this by no means demonstrates a fundamental difference in meaning.  In fact every Pauline book has some mention of the kingdom of God and/or the cognate idea of the exalted lordship and reign of Christ.  In fact most recent scholarship on the kingdom of God by scholars from a variety of perspectives agree that the so-called "already/not-yet understanding of the kingdom is quite similar in both the gospels and Paul.

Often times it seems to me that many critical scholars have a strange sort of "fundamentalistic" approach to such topics.  It is a kind of approach that says that if the exact same words are not used, then the different authors, such as Jesus and Paul, must be completely different in the content of their ideas.  I find that approach a very problematic one and driven more by skeptical presuppositions that by actual study of the text.

Since i didn't listen to the lecture and it's been a while since I've read DW, I'm only responding to your list above.

The classic discussion of the origins of Paul's theology is that of J Gresham Machen:

https://www.amazon.com/ORIGIN-PAULS-RELIGION-Supernatural-Christianity/dp/1599250756

The most massive and thorough study of Paul-- 1500+ pages!-- is by now retired Anglican bishop N T Wright, who has returned to academia.  While it has a few idiosyncrasies and I am not convinced of his view of justification, he argues, primarily on historical grounds, that Paul was thoroughly Jewish and a faithful follower of Christ at one and the same time as he explores Paul's theology.  Nearly every reviewer agrees that Wright's work is thorough and a force to be reckoned with in NT studies.  His earlier massive works have argued for the historical reliability of of the portrayal of Jesus in the gospels and for the historicity of the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

Here's a link to his recent massive work on Paul for those who really want to pursue this topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Paul-Faithfulness-God-Christian-Question-ebook/dp/B00GP5FO1Y/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8




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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 11 text

Highlights

 - Judah: covenant breakers

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah to speak to the people of Judah and Jerusalem, saying that they're cursed unless they remember the covenant they made with God when he led them out of Egypt and into the Promised Land - namely to be obedient to all of God's instructions.
 - So far, people have failed to live up to the covenant, despite God's warnings and calls for obedience. They are one stubborn bunch.
 - The people still worship other gods. So of course, God's going to punish them.
 - Judah will cry out to the false gods they've been worshipping, but it'll be no use.
 - God says not to pray for the people. He'll see through any last-minute repentance.
 - Judah used to be like a fruitful olive tree, but now God's going to burn it down.
 - Jeremiah says that people conspired to kill him.
- At first he had no idea that they were plotting against him, but God clued him in and destroyed Jeremiah's would-be killers.
 - These conspirators were the people of Anatoth, whom God says he will annihilate: the young men will be killed by the sword, and the rest will starve to death.

Questions and Observations

1) vv18-20 is also applicable to Jesus.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 12 text

Highlights

 - Jeremiah is worn out

Summary

 - Even though Jeremiah knows that God's in the right, he says that he personally wants to air some grievances.
 - He asks why the wicked have been doing so well without being punished.
 - He asks God to kill the wicked and relieve the people's suffering.
 - God answers that if Jeremiah is tired from dealing with these wicked people, he's like someone who has been exhausted from racing with foot-runners. So how can he compete when racing with horses (i.e. with really wicked opponents)?
 - Jeremiah shouldn't even trust his own family.
 - God says that he's forsaken Israel, even though they're still totally his favorite people.
 - But since the people of Israel apparently hate God now, he's leaving them to the wild animals.
 - Evil shepherds (metaphorically speaking) have trampled down the vineyard that God had planted in Judah and Jerusalem. They've ruined the land.
 - God isn't just going to punish Judah, but all the neighbors who've led them astray.
 - Then God will have compassion on the people of these different neighboring nations and Judah, and will let them return.
 - If they can worship God as they used to worship Baal, he'll have mercy on them. But if they don't, he'll tear them up and throw them out.

Questions and Observations

1) Shepherds destroying God's vineyard is going to be a recurring theme
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Quote from: drizabone on May 25, 2017, 09:14PMJeremiah 11 text

 - These conspirators were the people of Anatoth, whom God says he will annihilate: the young men will be killed by the sword, and the rest will starve to death.

Jeremiah being a (the?) priest at Anathoth. Evidently the townspeople were thoroughly fed up of his rantings.

Quote from: drizabone on May 25, 2017, 09:18PMJeremiah 12 text

 - Jeremiah is worn out
Realising that you've made yourself so hated that you've inspired an assassination attempt is not going to do wonders for your self-belief in the short term...

And with Jeremiah 12 we've completed 900 chapters. We are definitely getting there. 440 to go to complete both testaments, including the small amount of remaining deuterocanon. Unless we decide to go back and fill in Orthodox books such as Esdras at some point. 180 to go to complete the Old Testament. Following his hard work on Isaiah, Martin is now ahead by 452 chapter summaries to 446 overall, with one apiece for John (Genesis 3) and Dusty (Psalm 25). Anyone else that wants to bob in with a summary or series thereof, I'll remind you all, is very welcome to do so.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 13 text

Highlights

 - a memorable illustration

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah to buy a linen loincloth and wear it, and not to wash it.  He is to take it and hide it in a cleft in some rocks by the Euphrates.
 - After a while, God sends Jeremiah to get the loincloth, which is totally filthy and disgusting.
 - God says that this is what's happened to Judah and Jerusalem. They were originally supposed to be like God's own loincloth, clinging to him in righteousness. But their disobedience has rendered them useless and ruined.
 - Then God says to tell the people that every wine-jar should be full of wine.
 - They will reply "Yeah—tell us something we don't know," Jeremiah's to tell them that God's going to fill everyone in the land with a mad drunkenness, and then smash them all together, parents and children. There'll be no mercy.
 - Again, Jeremiah begs the people to change their ways before it's too late.
 - He says that he'll secretly weep for them if they don't repent.
 - He sees all of Judah taken into exile, and sees the crown of the king and the queen mother knocked off their heads.
 - If the people ask why all these bad things are happening, they should know that it's punishment for their sins.
 - Jeremiah asks if Ethiopians can change the color of their skins or leopards can change their spots.
 - Obviously the answer is no, and that applies to the evil Judeans, too. They're incapable of change.
 - God says he'll scatter his people and publicly expose Judah to the world, lifting up its skirts for everyone to see.
 - The chapter concludes with God saying that he's seen Jerusalem's adulteries and lust and wondering how long it will take them to become clean.


Questions and Observations

1) eeew.

2) Isn't Jeremiah prophesying from Judah.  That's a long trip just to hide your undie's.  (I just found out that the Hebrew word that is used here is likely a local place name that also means Euphrates.  So he would have not had to travel far, but the allusion to Babylon would have been obvious)

3) "can the Ethiopian change his skin?"  that might catch on. 

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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 14 text

Highlights

 - The People on their last legs. Jetremiah begs for mercy

Summary

 - Judah's under siege totally demoralized. When nobles send their servants to get water from the cistern, they find it dry.
 - A drought is just making everything worse. Even the wild asses are hungry and exhausted.
 - Jeremiah asks God why he's like a stranger towards Israel. He knows God could help if he wanted to.
 - At the same time, he says he can't deny that Israel's sins have been pretty bad.
 - God responds, saying that he's had it with Israel because they love to stray.
 - God tells Jeremiah not to pray for his people. He won't accept their fasts and their offerings. Instead, he's going to slaughter them with war, famine, and pestilence.
 - Jeremiah asks God why the other prophets are all telling the people that there will be peace.
 - God says that he didn't send these prophets; they're a pack of misguided liars, spreading false info, all that "don't worry, be happy" stuff.
 - Those prophets will all die by the sword, and their relatives and followers will be consumed by war and famine, with no one to bury their corpses.
 - But Jeremiah's supposed to tell the people that he weeps for them, seeing their dead bodies scattered everywhere he looks.
 - The people (or Jeremiah speaking in their voice) end the chapter by begging for mercy.
 - They admit they've been pretty impossible to deal with, and ask God to have mercy on them because it will benefit his name.  The Lord is the only god that can send rain.

Questions and Observations

1) I think that the drought is an indication that the people have broken the covenant so God is not providing water.

2) Lying prophets: who can trust them. And who says 'false news' is a new phenomenon?
ttf_MoominDave
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Quote from: drizabone on May 26, 2017, 09:28PMJeremiah 14 text

1) I think that the drought is an indication that the people have broken the covenant so God is not providing water.
Ah, Jeremiah's happened across a suitably large real misfortune for the people of Judah to lend his words a bit of resonance. He's starting to hit his stride.

Quote from: drizabone on May 26, 2017, 09:28PM2) Lying prophets: who can trust them. And who says 'false news' is a new phenomenon?

If Judah had never fallen, would we now be reading one of their books? Probably not, good news is never as eye-catching as bad.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Jeremiah 15 text

Highlights

 - Judah and Jeremiah are both in shtuck; neither are happy about it

Summary

 - Yahweh has (for the moment anyhow) implacably turned against Judah
 - He wants more worship from them in return for his favour
 - Jeremiah whines that his words haven't endeared him to his fellows
 - He calls on Yahweh to persecute his persecutors

Questions and Observations

1) Nothing I haven't said before.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: MoominDave on May 27, 2017, 02:06AMJeremiah 15 text

Highlights

 - Judah and Jeremiah are both in shtuck; neither are happy about it

It reads differently from my God believer perspective, something like

- God and Jeremiah are sick of Judah


And my summary would be:

Summary

 - Yahweh has (for the moment anyhow) implacably turned against Judah
 - Jeremiah whinges about his situation
 - The Lord says that he will look after Jeremiah so stop whingeing.
 
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: drizabone on May 27, 2017, 02:31PM
 - Yahweh has (for the moment anyhow) implacably turned against Judah
 - Jeremiah whinges about his situation
 - The Lord says that he will look after Jeremiah so stop whingeing.
 

This pattern is repeated over and over throughout Jewish history.  They end up in disaster time after time: defeats, being conquered, droughts, famines, plagues, etc. 

The worse it gets, the more they double down and assume they are guilty of not upholding their end of the covenant.  It's a bit like an abused spouse who assumes he/she is to blame for not doing better. 
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: timothy42b on Yesterday at 04:25 AMThe worse it gets, the more they double down and assume they are guilty of not upholding their end of the covenant. 

I don't think your analysis is correct Tim: according to a straight forward reading the text, it is blindingly obvious that they are not upholding their end of the covenant, they don't need to assume it. And the covenant sets out the consequences so that's obvious to. So knowing that you would not miss that, I assume that you must be reading the text differently.  Can you explain how you are reading it and leads you to your conclusion.


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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 16 text

Highlights

 - Punishment and Hope

Summary

 - Since the children of Judah are going to die from diseases, war, and famine, God tells Jeremiah to be celibate and to never get married or have kids.
 - He also prohibits Jeremiah from visiting people to mourn or celebrate with them..
 - All happiness and merry-making and wedding celebrations are cancelled.
 - When the people ask Jeremiah why all this is happening, he's to say that it's because they followed the evil practices of their ancestors.
 - God says that eventually people will praise him not only for bringing them out of Egypt but also out of the kingdom in the north (Babylon).
 - The invaders God's sending now are like hunters and fishermen killing and catching the people of Judah. He'll punish them for their love of idolatry.
 - The nations of the earth will eventually realise that their idols are false and gather to worship God.  He will teach them of his power and that his name is 'Yahweh'

Questions and Observations

1) "One more time". I guess the Israelites were slow learners.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 17 text

Highlights

 - more judgements

Summary

 - The people's sin is inscribed on their hearts with an iron pen or a diamond point, as they run around worshipping hills and trees.
 - People who trust in mere mortals instead of in God will be dry and thirsty like desert shrubs.
 - But those who trust in God's will be like flourishing trees planted by a stream. Even drought won't affect them.
 - People who get rich unjustly are like partridges trying to hatch the eggs of another bird—the baby birds will abandon them once they hatch.
 - Jeremiah prays to God: he says he's been a faithful servant, and wants to be saved from his enemies and healed from his sufferings.
 - He asks God to make sure that his persecutors are destroyed.
 - God tells Jeremiah to head out to the city gates of Jerusalem and urge the people to keep the Sabbath holy, telling them not to do any work on the Sabbath.
 - Their ancestors received the same instructions but ignored them.
 - If they keep the Sabbath day holy, good kings from the line of David will enter their city, and people will come from all around to make offerings and worship God in Jerusalem.
 - But if they don't do this, God's wrath will burn up the city and devour it.


Questions and Observations

1) more judgements for not keeping the covenant and the promise of hope if they do

2) v7... Jeremiah has read the psalms

3) v9... Paul has read Jeremiah
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 18 text

Highlights

 - God talks consequences to Israel
 - Jeremiah wants anger.

Summary

 - God sends Jeremiah to the potter's house where he sees that the potter takes the clay pots he's messed up and remakes them into better ones.
 - God tells him that this is what he's doing with Judah. They're clay in his hands and he'll remake them if he has to.
 - But the people say that they'll continue to do whatever they please.
 - God says that what Israel's doing by abandoning him is just unnatural. Would snow leave the crags of Sirion in Lebanon or the mountain streams run dry? Unthinkable!
 - But the people keep worshipping other gods.
 - God will turn his back to them, leaving them scattered in front of their enemies.
 - The people have hatched a plot against Jeremiah to try to shut him up.
 - Jeremiah pleads with God, saying that he tried to ask for mercy for these people, but now they're trying to kill him.
 - So Jeremiah asks God to make their children die by famine and to make their wives childless widows. Their men should die by disease, and their youths should die in battle.
 - He wants God to deal with them while he's still angry enough to do some serious damage.


Questions and Observations

1) More Jeremiah to be quoted by Paul
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: drizabone on May 28, 2017, 02:56PMI don't think your analysis is correct Tim: according to a straight forward reading the text, it is blindingly obvious that they are not upholding their end of the covenant, they don't need to assume it. And the covenant sets out the consequences so that's obvious to. So knowing that you would not miss that, I assume that you must be reading the text differently.  Can you explain how you are reading it and leads you to your conclusion.



It depends on the timing.  Writing after a disaster, it is easy to find what you did wrong to cause it.  Taken as a whole, the OT is not good evidence that Yahweh consistently held up his end (winning the battles, defeating the enemies.)  The Chosen People must have been consistently rebellious over their entire history, OR perhaps they misunderstood the fine print of the contract. 
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 29, 2017, 05:30AMIt depends on the timing.  Writing after a disaster, it is easy to find what you did wrong to cause it.  Taken as a whole, the OT is not good evidence that Yahweh consistently held up his end (winning the battles, defeating the enemies.)  The Chosen People must have been consistently rebellious over their entire history, OR perhaps they misunderstood the fine print of the contract. 

FWIW, nearly all OT scholars that I'm aware of argue, that contract is not at all the best descriptor for the OT notion of covenant.  Contract has overtones of 2 equal parties sitting over a bargaining table hammering out the stipulations and no OT covenant resembles that.  The exact nature what an OT covenant is is still debated and many see more than one form of OT covenant such promissory and suzerainty, etc.  The final word is still being debated.
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Post by ttf_Baron von Bone »

Quote from: John the Theologian on May 29, 2017, 06:43AMContract has overtones of 2 equal parties sitting over a bargaining table hammering out the stipulations and no OT covenant resembles that.
Sounds like the exception there, certainly not the norm. It's odd to derive the exceptional from a scenario like that as representative of what it suggests--suggests there's a need to do so.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Jeremiah 19 text

Highlights

 - A second pottery-based metaphor

Summary

 - Jeremiah is instructed to take an earthenware flask, and preach upon how Judah is going to fall if it doesn't mend its ways
 - Then to break the pot and tell the assembled people that that is the consequence of their behaviour

Questions and Observations

1) This is at the 'potsherd gate'. More pottery!
2) There's a reason that "preaching to the converted" is a saw.
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: John the Theologian on May 29, 2017, 06:43AMFWIW, nearly all OT scholars that I'm aware of argue, that contract is not at all the best descriptor for the OT notion of covenant. 

Modern conservative Christian OT scholars?  Because that book did belong to a slightly different religion for a slightly longer time.

Wiki suggests treaty may be be a better term than contract.  Have to think about that one. 
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: timothy42b on May 29, 2017, 12:56PMModern conservative Christian OT scholars?  Because that book did belong to a slightly different religion for a slightly longer time.

Wiki suggests treaty may be be a better term than contract.  Have to think about that one. 

No, not just conservative scholars.  Here are the various definitions from Wikipedia, which is not listing conservative sources in its footnotes with the exception of M. Kline.  Notice that there is variety but all distinguish ANE covenants from modern contracts.

In the ancient middle east (in which the Bible was written), a covenant was a formal agreement that caused (or implied) several things:

"1. First, a covenant defined (or sometimes created) a relationship. This relationship might be between a king and his vassal states, between a deity and his nation, between two humans, etc.
2. Some covenants are conditional (if one party does A, then the other party will do B), just as with a present-day contract. But generally, ancient covenants are unconditional (each party commits to a certain action, regardless of whether the other party keeps the covenant). [1] [2]
3. Covenants often included the slaughter of animals as a symbol of their significance.
4. Unlike present-day contracts, covenants often carried no expiration date. Thus the parties were understood to be bound by the covenant until death (or forever, in the case of covenants with God).
5. A contract is enforced by the civil government; a covenant is regulated by God.
6. A contract involves the exchange of property or actions; a covenant binds two parties together personally. [3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_(biblical)
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

John,  I think Tim was pointing out that Jewish scholars might have something significant to say on the issue.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: MoominDave on May 29, 2017, 08:41AMJeremiah 19 text

Highlights

 - A second pottery-based metaphor

ISTM that Jeremiah has turned the punishment level up to 11 on the scale this time. Not just because his feeling grumpy, but because the Jew's bad behaviour is depicted as 11 out of 10 too.

Quote2) There's a reason that "preaching to the converted" is a saw.

Stop mixing your metaphors, it confuses me, we're supposed to be talking pottery not carpentry.
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 04:21PMJohn,  I think Tim was pointing out that Jewish scholars might have something significant to say on the issue.

I agree, so that's why I quoted the Wikipedia article which heavily footnotes Moshe Weinfeld, a respected Jewish scholar.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 20 text

Highlights

 - Jeremiah persecuted and complaining

Summary

 - A priest named Pashur hears Jeremiah making these dire prophecies. So he has Jeremiah flogged and puts him in the stocks.
 - The next morning Pashur lets him go, but Jeremiah says that God has changed Pashur's name to "Terror All Around," because his wickedness will cause terror to him and all his friends.
 - The people of Judah will all be captured by the Babylonians, and their cities will be plundered. Pashur and his friends will be taken captive as well, and they'll die in Babylon.
 - Jeremiah says that God has overpowered him. He's now a laughingstock, since the word of God keeps making him prophesy about violence and destruction.
 - If he tries to avoid prophesying, his bones feel like they're on fire—he can't stop it and he can't hold it in.
 - Poor guy. Everyone's plotting against him at this point, even his friends.
 - But God defends Jeremiah and makes sure that his foes are shamed, defeated, and eternally dishonored.
 - Suddenly, Jeremiah goes from praising God for saving him to lamenting having even been born in the first place.
 - He wishes he'd died in the womb and that his mother would've been his grave.
 - Why was he born only to see sorrow and devastation, and have to go around telling people things they don't want to hear?

Questions and Observations

1) Jeremiah does seem to be doing a bit of foretelling in this book.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 21 text

Highlights

 - Bad news for the King

Summary

 - King Zedekiah of Judah sends the priests Pashur and Zephaniah to ask Jeremiah for God's advice about how to deal with King Nebuchadnezzar's Babylonian invasion.
 - Zedekiah's hoping God will save them with a miracle.
 - God says that he's going to fight on the side of the Babylonians against Judah.
 - God will kill the people and animals in Jerusalem through war, pestilence and famine.
 - The people who survive (including Zedekiah) will be captured by Nebuchadnezzar, who will kill a lot of them.
 - God says that they're better off surrendering — if they don't, they'll get killed, and Nebuchadnezzar will burn down the city.
 - Another prophecy from God warns the House of David, telling them to be righteous and to punish robbers, or else God will wreak vengeance on them.
 - The people living in the valley around Jerusalem will have no hope of saving themselves, so they shouldn't kid themselves about their refuges and hiding places.
 - God's going to kindle a fire that will devour everyone; there's no place to hide.


Questions and Observations

1) This seems to be a different priest called Pashhur to the one in the last chapter who beat Jeremiah.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 22 text

Highlights

 - Jeremiah : not becoming friends with the King

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah to go to the King of Judah and bring him a message.
 - Jeremiah is to remind that King that God expects him not to oppress widows and orphans, don't shed innocent blood, and punish robbers ....
 - If they heed this advice, they'll have righteous kings in the future. But if they don't, the city will be demolished.
 - Right now, things in the palace might seem as lush as Gilead or Lebanon. But God will turn the land into a desolate waste if the rulers don't pay attention.
 - The destroyers will cut down their best cedars and burn them.
 - All the nations will see Judah's destruction and gossip about how they were destroyed for disobeying God.
 - Don't weep for the dead, says God - weep for the people being sent into exile.
 - God says that King Shallum will die in exile and never see Jerusalem again.
 - God says that rulers who exploit their workers to build fancy palaces for themselves will end up suffering.
 - A bigger palace doesn't make someone a true king - ruling righteously does.
 - Regarding King Jehoiakim, God says that people won't lament his death and he'll be buried like a donkey.
 - The people should go cry in Lebanon and other places since their lovers (allies) have been crushed.
 - The people have never obeyed God; it's been like this since they were kids.
 - So they'll all get taken into captivity along with their allies.
 - As for the next king after Jehoiakim, Coniah (or Jehoiachin), God says that even if Coniah were the signet ring on his hand, he'd tear him off. He and his mother will both be sent into exile in Babylon, where they'll eventually die.

Questions and Observations

1) Hve you noticed that Jeremiah is not chronological

2) Shallum (also known as Jehoahaz) was king of Judah (3 months in 609 BC) and the third son of king Josiah whom he succeeded 2 Kings 23:31-25, 1 Chron 3:15
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 23 text

Highlights

 - Hints of God's solution

Summary

 - God reprimands the shephers (kings, prophets and priests) who should have shepherded his flock.
 - Instead they've scattered the flock, but God will eventually gather the flock together and lead it back into the Promised Land. He'll provide the leaders this time so they won't have to live in fear.
 - God will raise up a "Branch" from the House of David, and this good king will rule righteously over Judah and Israel.
 - In the future, the people will see God not only as their savior from Egypt but from Babylon also.
 - Next, Jeremiah says that he feels drunk and overwhelmed because of the word of the Lord within him.
 - The (figurative) adulterers in Judah are causing the land to dry up. The prophets and priests are giving the people false hope.
 - The prophets in Samaria were prophesying through Baal and misleading people, but the prophets in Jerusalem are worse: they've committed adultery and strengthened evil people. They're as bad as Sodom and Gomorrah.
 - In retribution, God will make them eat bitter food and drink poisonous water and die in agony.
 - God continues to pile it on against the false prophets: they're just speaking about their own fantasies and delusions. They're not bringing true messages from God.
 - None of these people have ever stood before the Lord, and now his wrath is coming against Judah like a whirlwind.
 - The purpose of God's anger will become clear in the future.
 - The prophets refused to stand before God and take his counsel and now the people are a mess because of it.
 - God asks if he isn't a God who's nearby (implying he is). He also can see anyone who tries to hide and he also fills heaven and earth, in case we forgot that.
 - The prophets mistakenly believe that they're having prophetic dreams and waste time telling people about them.
 - God's word is like a hammer that can smash these false prophets and their bad advice.
 - If people ask what God's burden is, God says Jeremiah should say in response "You are."
 - God wants people to stop complaining about "the burden of the Lord." He'll cast them out forever if they keep doing it.
 - They'll have to deal with eternal shame and disgrace. Eternal. Shame. And. Disgrace.

Questions and Observations

1) What does God think of false prophets?

2) Who could this "Branch" from the House of David be?
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 24 text

Highlights

 - New Hearts

Summary

 - After Nebuchadnezzar takes Coniah into exile, God shows Jeremiah two baskets of figs placed in front of the temple.
 - The one basket has really good figs in it, and the other has rotten figs that can't be eaten.
 - God asks Jeremiah what he sees, and Jeremiah says that he sees good figs and horrible figs that you can't eat. (Eye roll.)
 - God says that the good figs are the people who will survive and go into exile. He'll eventually let them return and give them a heart that will love God.
 - But King Zedekiah and his officials, and the people who remain in the land or who leave for Egypt are the rotten figs.
 - All the kingdoms of the world will see them as a horror and a disgrace.
 - They'll all be utterly destroyed by sword, famine, and disease.

Questions and Observations

1) I'm on a roll

2) It doesn't appear that there is a reason why the people left should be bad figs (apart from the bad rulers leaders) and why those exiled should be good figs.  It seems as thought it is just God choosing some and not others.

3) We've got more info here on God's solution to Israel's inability to follow God: he will give them new 'hearts' so that they will know he is The Lord and they are his people.

4) its interesting to speculate on what the ancients thought the purpose of the different bodily organs were.
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: John the Theologian on May 29, 2017, 05:06PMI agree, so that's why I quoted the Wikipedia article which heavily footnotes Moshe Weinfeld, a respected Jewish scholar.

The wiki as well as some other sources suggest that my concept (and the standard Christian idea) of a single OT covenant is way too simplistic. 

I read the Little Ice Age over the weekend:
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Ice-Age-Climate-1300-1850/dp/0465022723

It was interesting that during the late 1600s/early1700s when glaciers were pouring down the Alps destroying churches, villages, farms, the prevailing wisdom was that this was punishment for the sinfulness of the people.  The response was to appeal to religious authorities (bishops, pope, Jesuit order) for intercession, and promise to mend their ways. 

The parallel seems rather exact.  Do we really think the science worked differently in OT days? 
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 05:42PMJeremiah 21 text
We seem to be in a different era now from the one we started the book in. The priests Pashur and Zephaniah (who is incidentally definitely not the same person as the prophet Zephaniah) were sent to Jeremiah by King Zedekiah (reigned 597-586 BC). Recall Jeremiah 1:1-3 - the earliest parts of this book date to the 13th year of King Josiah, i.e. 628 BC. This dates this passage to at least 30 years after the start of the book.

Pash(h)ur is a name that comes up five times in these books, twice right here. I agree that these two mentions in successive chapters confusingly reference obviously different people. This Pash(h)ur returns in Jeremiah 38, attempting to kill him, along with his son Gedaliah and a couple of others. We've heard the name Gedaliah before - but, checking back (and forward - this is narrated later in Jeremiah also) I see that Nebuchadnezzar's appointed governor of Judah of the same name, who ruled under the Babylonians after the country fell, this was a different person again.
The other two occurrences of the name are in Ezra and Nehemiah, after the return from exile. I note that the name means "splitter/cleaver", which seems a distinctly unlikely moniker to give to a baby - I suspect that perhaps we are seeing an unusually late instance of the biblical description-as-name practice that we saw a great deal more of in Genesis than any time since.

This is all a bit confusing, but I think I have it straight?

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 06:25PMJeremiah 22 text

1) Hve you noticed that Jeremiah is not chronological

Ah yes, you spotted this too... Ch 22 has jumped back in time again. It's worth noting the Wikipedia page on the book - "It is generally agreed that the three types of material interspersed through the book – poetic, narrative, and biographical – come from different sources or circles.[10] Authentic oracles of Jeremiah are probably to be found in the poetic sections of chapters 1–25, but the book as a whole has been heavily edited and added to by followers (including perhaps the prophet's companion, the scribe Baruch) and later generations of Deuteronomists.[11] The date of the final versions of the book (Greek and Hebrew) can be suggested by the fact that the Greek shows concerns typical of the early Persian period, while the Masoretic (i.e., Hebrew) shows perspectives which, although known in the Persian period, did not reach their realisation until the 2nd century BCE.[12]".

I suspect John will heartily scorn this kind of interpretation as not matching his presuppositions, but as a hypothesis it works well for me, for this as for most of the other bible books we've read.

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 08:10PMJeremiah 23 text

1) What does God think of false prophets?
That they're very useful when it suits him to spread misinformation?

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 08:10PM2) Who could this "Branch" from the House of David be?

I suppose the first obvious candidate would be Zerubbabel, the grandson and heir of Jehoiachin, who was regarded by the Babylonian Jews as the legitimate king of Judah. But then in only the previous chapter Jeremiah has prophesied that no descendant of his (or does "offspring" only refer to one generation of descendants?) would sit on the throne again. But then again Zerubbabel is never called a king. "Reign as king" - could that be "prince of Judah"? Ah, who knows.

I'm guessing that there are plenty of Christians that hold that Jesus is the person being referred to? And that "reign as king" doesn't refer to a worldly reign, but rather to a spiritual reign?

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 08:19PMJeremiah 24 text

1) I'm on a roll
A fig roll.

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 08:19PM2) It doesn't appear that there is a reason why the people left should be bad figs (apart from the bad rulers leaders) and why those exiled should be good figs.  It seems as thought it is just God choosing some and not others.
This reads to me like a later redaction - a post-exilic passage written to fit what had come to transpire.

Quote from: drizabone on May 29, 2017, 08:19PM4) its interesting to speculate on what the ancients thought the purpose of the different bodily organs were.

Aristotle, 200 years later, and several countries away, held that the heart performed as we have later come to understand much what the brain does. This chapter seems to say the same. If I am correct in assuming that the chapter is post-exilic, we get a little nearer to Aristotle's time.
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Post by ttf_MoominDave »

Jeremiah 25 text

Highlights

 - Exile

Summary

 - Jeremiah preaches to Judah and Jerusalem
 - He's given the same message for 23 years, but they still haven't listened
 - Both he and Yahweh are cross about this
 - In consequence, the Babylonians will come from the North, destroying the place, and subjugating Judah for 70 years
 - When 70 years are up, the Babylonians will be destroyed
 - Jeremiah is told to feed wine from "the cup of wrath" to all kinds of major king-type figures, of all the nearby countries
 - This signifies their destruction, but there is a confusing verse (v28) that seems to seek to insist that this wasn't a metaphor but something real; this is all a bit meta
 - Yahweh's wrathtaking on all these people will be horrible

Questions and Observations

1) Jehoiakim reigned 608-598 BC, so we are in 605 BC here.
2) Double check the chronology - Jeremiah states 23 years from the 13th year of Josiah (start of his prophetic career) to the time of writing. Yep 628-605=23. Jolly good.
3) I sympathise with the Judahites - a few chapters of Jeremiah is enough to weary the soul somewhat; 23 years of him in person would have been quite something.
4) Obviously to my eyes, this is a post-exilic passage. No need to assume foretelling powers when the genesis of the book is so complex and disputed.
5) 70 years is an strange length of time. The exile ended in 539 BC, 47 years after the second deportation in 586 BC, 58 years after the first deportation in 597 BC. It's not far off the time between Jeremiah's date at the top of the chapter and the return - 66 years. But the description doesn't seem to fit that.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Quote from: MoominDave on May 30, 2017, 10:50AMJeremiah 25 text

...

 - Jeremiah is told to feed wine from "the cup of wrath" to all kinds of major king-type figures, of all the nearby countries
 - This signifies their destruction, but there is a confusing verse (v28) that seems to seek to insist that this wasn't a metaphor but something real; this is all a bit meta

I think the "drink the cup' figures work best if its symbolic:  it indicates that they will the objects of God's wrath and they won't be able to avoid it.  Jeremiah may have actually really given them a cup or he may have just told them about it.  A real cup would have made the symbol more vivid but I don't think its essential to understanding the point.

Quote5) 70 years is an strange length of time. The exile ended in 539 BC, 47 years after the second deportation in 586 BC, 58 years after the first deportation in 597 BC. It's not far off the time between Jeremiah's date at the top of the chapter and the return - 66 years. But the description doesn't seem to fit that.

As with lots of numbers in the bible I think 70 is symbolic (which doesn't exclude it from being real as well).  There are lots of ideas on what the significance of various numbers are in the bible and the Jew's had extensive studies on it.  I think that at least some of them are speculative, but 70 seems to occur more than it would if it was not significant in some way.  Daniel refers to this prophecy and 70 also appears in his prophecies. 

Its also likely that the Jewish calendar at the time was not the same as ours.  They used lunar months and the book of Jubilees specified years of 52 weeks long.  This site reckons that the difference between these years and solar years could have been reconciled using leap weeks every 7,49 and 70 years.  https://design-of-time.com/seventy.htm  All this is interesting but possibly speculative.

So maybe our historically accepted datings are off by a little bit or differ from the Hebrew calendar or maybe the bible writers wanted to use the significant number of 70 and it was close enough for their standards or precision to be acceptable.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 26 text

Highlights

 - A Tale of Two Prophets

Summary

 - At the beginning of Jehoiakim's reign, God tells Jeremiah to stand in the court of the temple and speak to all the people and cities of Judah. They're getting another chance to repent.
 - If the people don't finally come to their senses, God's going to do the same thing to Jerusalem that he did to Shiloh up north: it'll be devastated.
 - But the priests and prophets don't want to hear it, and they threaten to kill Jeremiah.
 - The king's officials come to the temple, and the priests and prophets tell them about what Jeremiah had just prophesied. They think he should die for it.
 - Jeremiah says that he's only saying what God has made him say. If they want to kill him they can go right ahead, but innocent blood will be on their hands.
 - The officials and the people agree that Jeremiah shouldn't be put to death. Some of the elders point out that Micah prophesied about Jerusalem's destruction during  - Hezekiah's reign and Hezekiah didn't kill him.
 - And besides, God changed his mind and actually didn't destroy Jerusalem that time. Maybe that'll happen again.
 - But there's another prophet named Uriah son of Shemaiah who isn't as lucky as Jeremiah. He prophesies against Judah and Jerusalem in the same way and is threatened with death by Jehoiakim.
 - Uriah tries to escape to Egypt but is captured. Jehoiakim personally kills him with his own sword.
 - But Ahikam son of Shaphan protects Jeremiah so that no one can kill him.


Questions and Observations

1) Jeremiah should stop complaining after this
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 27 text

Highlights

 - Babylon to Rule, for a while

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah to put a yoke around his neck and to send a message to all the kingdoms that Nebuchadnezzar's about to conquer (Edom, Moab, Tyre, Sidon, and the Ammonites).
 - Jeremiah explains that God's giving their land to the Babylonians, but that the Babylonians will eventually become the slaves of other powers.
 - But for now, they should all submit and serve Babylon. They should ignore the words of the false prophets and anyone else who tells them to resist.
 - If they fight back, they're done for.
 - Jeremiah sends the same message to King Zedekiah.
 - No one needs to die by war, disease, or famine, says Jeremiah, and Zedekiah should ignore the false prophets who are urging him to fight.
 - He tells the people and priests the same thing. The false prophets are lying when they say that the holy vessels the Babylonians have stolen will be returned to the temple.


Questions and Observations

1) More good news brought to you by your friendly prophet.

2) This meant that Nebuchadnezzar was a Messiah, someone chosen by God to rule over his people
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Jeremiah 28 text

Highlights

 - Don't make up prophecies

Summary

 - In the fourth year of Zedekiah's reign, a false prophet named Hananiah speaks to Jeremiah in the temple in front of the priests and all the people.
 - He says that God has broken Babylon's yoke, and will return God's holy vessels to the temple and release the ex-King Coniah and the other exiles.
 - Jeremiah says that it would be great if God did those things. But he says that the real prophets in the past had predicted war, famine, and disease.
 - If a prophet who predicts peace somehow managed to be right—well, then it would really be impressive, and you'd know God sent that prophet.
 - Hananiah then symbolically breaks the yoke from around Jeremiah's neck, the one that God had ordered him to wear.
 - He says this is how God will break the Babylonians' yoke from Judah. He thinks he's clever.
 - Jeremiah goes away, but the word of God comes to him. It says to tell Hananiah that he's broken off the wooden yoke only to have it replaced with an iron yoke. Judah and the other nations will most definitely fall to Nebuchadnezzar.
 - Jeremiah goes to Hananiah and tells him that he's made the people believe in a lie. As punishment, God's planning on killing him within the year.
 - He does.


Questions and Observations

1) If I was writing this book, this chapter would have been before the last chapter.

2) Jeremiah 1, Hananiah 0.
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Jeremiah 29 text

Highlights

 - How to live in exile

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah to write to the priests and prophets who've already been exiled to Babylon: King Coniah, the queen mother, the royal officials, the artisans and smiths.
 - it tells everyone to keep trying to lead a normal life - build houses, plant and eat from gardens, have your sons and daughters get married, seek the best for the city you live in
 - They shouldn't listen to the false prophets who are still hanging around.
 - When seventy years are up, God will release the people and send them home.
 - However, the people who didn't go into exile are going to deal with calamity and death.
 - Because they didn't obey their true prophets and change their ways, they'll be destroyed.
 - Nebuchadnezzar will kill the false prophets, Ahab son of Kolaiah and Zedekiah son of Maaseiah, in front of the people.
 - A prophet named Shemaiah son of Nehelam sent a letter to Zephaniah the priest, asking him why he hasn't punished Jeremiah for spouting insane prophecies in the temple.
 - Zephaniah reads the letter to Jeremiah, and then the word of God comes to Jeremiah.
 - It tells him to write to the exiles, telling them that Shemaiah prophesied falsely to them and made them believe lies.
 - God will punish Shemaiah by making sure that none of his descendants will live to see the end of the exile and the restoration of Judah.


Questions and Observations

1) Nebuchadnezzar knew Daniel.  So it looks like Jeremiah and Daniel may have been contemporaries or at least near contemporaries, but not living close to each other.  I'd always thought Jeremiah lived 50 years before Daniel. I wonder if they interacted, even indirectly.

2) 4-7 is thought to guide how Christians should interact with the society they find themselves living in.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 30 text

Highlights

 - Good News.

Summary

 - God tells Jeremiah that a day will come when God will restore the fortunes of all the people from Judah and Israel and let them go back to their homeland.
 - At the moment, men are in so much pain that they look like they're going into childbirth. But Jacob's people will be liberated in the end. They'll serve God and the righteous king like David instead.
 - God will bring the other nations to an end, but they themselves will be saved (though they'll have been punished pretty well beforehand).
 - Things may be bad for the people now, but God will restore them to health and punish all the nations and peoples who've been plundering and exploiting them.
 - God will have compassion on Jacob, Jerusalem will be rebuilt, merrymaking will begin again, and things will be like they used to be. They'll even have their own prince and six months of free HBO.
 - They'll be God's people and he'll be their God again.
 - God's wrath might not make sense now when they're suffering through it, but in the future the reasons will be clear.


Questions and Observations

1) Jeremiah gets to announce some good news at last.

2) This promise that David will be raised and rule again hasn't been literally fulfilled yet.  Some christians think that Jesus (as a son of David) will fulfill it others are expecting David.
ttf_drizabone
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 31 text

Highlights

 - More Good News.

Summary

 - God continues to talk about how great the future will be. He'll be the God of all the families of Israel.
 - The people who've survived life in exile will find God again, like Jacob encountering God in a dream.
 - God will reaffirm his love for Israel, and build it up again. People will plant vineyards and be merry. (Vineyards seem to be the key to happiness in ancient Israel.)
 - So now they should celebrate, praising God and asking him to save them from exile.
 - God will gather together all the Israelites from Babylon and from every part of the world and lead them all back to Judah and Israel—the blind and the lame, women and children: everyone.
 - He'll treat them like a first-born child.
 - Everywhere, people should talk about how God will soon bring Israel home.
 - The people will get their oil and wine and flocks back; they'll be like a well-watered garden.
 - The young women will dance and everyone will be happy again.
 - The priests and everyone else will be satisfied with the bounty God's given them.
 - Metaphorically, Rachel (Jacob's wife) can be heard weeping for her lost children. God comforts her, telling her not to cry: her children will be brought back from exile.
 - Again, Israel as a whole is represented by another Biblical character, Ephraim. Ephraim says that God's taught him a lesson and that he finally learned it.
 - God agrees, says that Ephraim/Israel is still his beloved son, and promises to have some mercy on him.
 - God advises Israel to consider the way back home, setting up signs and posts and breadcrumbs along the highway.
 - He also says he's created a new thing on earth: a woman who encompasses a man!
 - The farmers and all the people who've been wandering will return to their land, and people will be filled with energy even before their morning Starbucks.
 - God will replant Israel and Judah with people and animals, watching them grow instead of destroying them.
 - Children won't have to pay for their parents' sins in the future. That would be like having to taste sourness if your parents were eating sour grapes.
 - God's going to make a new covenant with the people, different from the covenant that they broke.
 - This time the covenant will be an inner covenant. The law will be written on the people's hearts.
 - They won't need to tell each other to "know the Lord," because they'll all know God. He will fogive them and not even remember their sin.
 - God says that Israel will be like his children unless the whole natural order fell apart, like if the sun and moon fell out of their courses, and the sea covered up all the land.
 - Jerusalem will be totally rebuilt and improved. The valley that's now filled with corpses and ashes will be made sacred to God.


Questions and Observations

1) More foretelling.

2) it foretells the return from exile (Babylon, the north country).  This has been done (at least in part), and I suppose you could say that it was written after to avoid any hint of supernatural shenanigans.

3) It also foretells a New Covenant between God and Israel, a covenant inside them and they will truly be his people.  This hasn't happened yet.

4) The NT has a take on this.
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Post by ttf_drizabone »

Jeremiah 32 text

Highlights

 - More judgement and then hope.

Summary

- In the tenth year of Zedekiah's reign, a message reaches Jeremiah from God. This is in the middle of the Babylonian invasion
-  Zedekiah asks Jeremiah why he keeps prophesying about how Judah will be defeated and that Zedekiah will be taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar.
- God tells Jeremiah to buy a field in Anathoth and give the deed to his scribe, Baruch, in front of many witnesses
- Jeremiah tells Baruch to put the deed in a clay jar and save it, because someday their family members' descendants (or whoever) will be able to return to Judah after the exile ends and show that they own the field.
- This is a kind of vote of confidence in God's promise that the people will get back to Judah.
- After doing this, Jeremiah praises God for his power and might and justice, but also for his mercy. He praises him for bringing them out of Egypt in the past.
- But Jeremiah notes that they didn't obey the covenant they made with God coming out of Egypt, so that's why the Babylonians are besieging them. He marvels at how God still instructed him to buy that field anyway.
- God says it's a piece of cake for him to pull these things off.
- But the Babylonians are still going to capture Jerusalem, burn it down, and punish the people for their various sins and for worshipping Baal.
- Everyone in Israel has provoked God to anger and they're all guilty, from the kings and priests to the rest of the populace.
- He's mad at them for building altars to Baal, sacrificing their kids to Moloch, etc. That's why he's let them fall into the hands of the Babylonians and suffer war, famine, and disease.
- But he'll bring them back and make an everlasting covenant with them.
- he'll restore the people's fortune, and fields will be sold and deeds will be signed and sealed once again.

Questions and Observations

1) The people have been bad, God punishes them and will then forgive and restore them.
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Post by ttf_timothy42b »

Quote from: drizabone on Jun 01, 2017, 09:06PM- But he'll bring them back and make an everlasting covenant with them.
- he'll restore the people's fortune, and fields will be sold and deeds will be signed and sealed once again.

This is starting to sound familiar.

In my field we have an acronym, TFD.  Terminate for default.  One side of the contract is not performing, so we terminate the contract.  Of course there is a substantial body of regulations controlling our procedures. 

So the people have failed once again, and the covenant is broken.  But don't worry, we'll soon sign a new one.  And THIS one will be GREAT! 
ttf_John the Theologian
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: timothy42b on Jun 02, 2017, 04:59AMThis is starting to sound familiar.

In my field we have an acronym, TFD.  Terminate for default.  One side of the contract is not performing, so we terminate the contract.  Of course there is a substantial body of regulations controlling our procedures. 

So the people have failed once again, and the covenant is broken.  But don't worry, we'll soon sign a new one.  And THIS one will be GREAT! 

Methinks that there is a human condition known as depravity in the works here.  No surprise to those who have followed the biblical narrative. Image
ttf_Baron von Bone
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Post by ttf_Baron von Bone »

Quote from: John the Theologian on Jun 02, 2017, 05:22PMQuote from: timothy42b on Jun 02, 2017, 04:59AMThis is starting to sound familiar.
 
In my field we have an acronym, TFD.  Terminate for default.  One side of the contract is not performing, so we terminate the contract.  Of course there is a substantial body of regulations controlling our procedures.
 
So the people have failed once again, and the covenant is broken.  But don't worry, we'll soon sign a new one.  And THIS one will be GREAT!Methinks that there is a human condition known as depravity in the works here.  No surprise to those who have followed the biblical narrative. Image
Odd though that God seems to understand the human psyche no better than pastoralists from, say, the Bronze Age ...
ttf_John the Theologian
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Post by ttf_John the Theologian »

Quote from: John the Theologian on May 24, 2017, 09:14PMSince the Old Testament portion of this thread is rapidly winding down. I thought I'd mention a book that might be of interest when we enter the NT.

Richard Bauckham is professor emeritus of New Testament studies at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, senior scholar at Ridley Hall, Cambridge, and a fellow of both the British Acad-emy and the Royal Society of Edinburgh.

His book is a major and thorough work on the eyewitness nature of the New Testament gospels.

Here's the link:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0802874312?_encoding=UTF8&isInIframe=0&n=283155&portal-device-attributes=desktop&ref_=dp_proddesc_0&s=books&showDetailProductDesc=1#product-description_feature_div

Here's a bit more information about the book by Bauckham

http://www.eerdmans.com/Products/7431/jesus-and-the-eyewitnesses.aspx
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