Too many music degree programs

[robcat2075]

Ouch Indeed!
35+ years ago UNT cost me ~$800 per semester on a $800 scholarship (I was from out of state but any scholarship qualified you for in-state tuition). I paid my own way working part-time, with zero student debt.
I got my worthless performance degree and now I'm an engineer (no degree). No regrets, but there's NO way I could do that now.

When I entered UNT as a graduate student in 1983 the tuition was $4 per credit hour! There were extra fees for things like ensembles or private lessons or "labs" but it was still astonishingly cheap compare to the private college i had graduated from two years earlier.

I could pay my tuition from the interest in my checking account

There were problems, like TAs assigned to teach classes who had no teaching skills or even English language skills.

[peteedwards]

They were fat on oil money back then.
I guess I got in on the tail end of the gravy train.

[ghmerrill]

Truly dediciated musicians would make good anything:

You'll have to excuse me for not wanting to conflate dedication with either skill, quality, or usefulness -- I mean, seeing as how I'm dedicated to rational reasoning and thought.

[JTeagarden]

I mean if given the oportunity and training, not just 'cause.

[sf105]

What do serious schools say about their serious programs? ...

A lot of this seems similar to the traditional bait trolled out by philosophy (or sometimes "communications", or even history) departments to attract majors: it's a great major for helping you get into law school, and you'll learn things that will help you there. This definitely works, at least on some demographic, and successful cases and testimonials can be found supporting it. And in fact there is some significant degree of truth in the added claim that the degree provides you with broad and transferable skills -- IF you actually take the right courses and avoid the easy fluff ones.

In the case of music performance programs, I remain highly skeptical of claims about broader or transferable skills getting taught.

I'm assuming that Philosophy helps people analyse and clarify arguments, and history teaches one about handling large amounts of data and understanding evidence. Both should be valuable skills in all sorts of fields.

I found that a performance degree helped me learn about how to develop skills, how to collaborate, and how to cope with reality (nowhere to hide in a section). Not everyone I work with can cope with the idea of constant improvement.

[Before computers, the two cheapest departments in the University were maths and philosophy. For maths, you only needed a pencil and eraser, and for philosophy you didn't need the eraser.]

[sf105]

I've talked to a few HR recruiters who old me that musicians were good candidates for computer jobs. Of course this was before the days of a glut of computer science majors.

If you throw a brick into a London amateur orchestra you'll hit someone who works in IT. There's the long-standing connection between maths and music, it's a job that suits people who are used to precision and discovering structure, and for a long time it was an excellent way to make a living.

[ghmerrill]

I found that a performance degree helped me learn about how to develop skills, how to collaborate, and how to cope with reality (nowhere to hide in a section). Not everyone I work with can cope with the idea of constant improvement.

So -- aside from the music performance part itself -- a performance degree provided you primarily with several personal psychological "coping mechanisms" to get through life? I can see that this would be beneficial, but I'm not sure about putting it on a job application or how to characterize it to a potential employer.

[LeTromboniste]

Man, with all the condescension going here I had to double check that this wasn't the trumpet forum...
and here I was naively thinking people on a music forum would see the point and value in, you know, music.

Guess I'm just going to need to take a long break from this place and go spend that extra time on my worthless career and useless skills, and go dupe my students into following the path of ruin and despair.

[tbdana]

Man, with all the condescension going here I had to double check that this wasn't the trumpet forum...
and here I was naively thinking people on a music forum would see the point and value in, you know, music.

Guess I'm just going to need to take a long break from this place and go spend that extra time on my worthless career and useless skills, and go dupe my students into following the path of ruin and despair.

Yeah, it’s very disappointing.

[sf105]

I found that a performance degree helped me learn about how to develop skills, how to collaborate, and how to cope with reality (nowhere to hide in a section). Not everyone I work with can cope with the idea of constant improvement.

So -- aside from the music performance part itself -- a performance degree provided you primarily with several personal psychological "coping mechanisms" to get through life? I can see that this would be beneficial, but I'm not sure about putting it on a job application or how to characterize it to a potential employer.

This is rage bait?

[officermayo]

So -- aside from the music performance part itself -- a performance degree provided you primarily with several personal psychological "coping mechanisms" to get through life? I can see that this would be beneficial, but I'm not sure about putting it on a job application or how to characterize it to a potential employer.

This is rage bait?

Too many people going underground
Too many reaching for a piece of cake
Too many people pulled and pushed around
Too many waiting for that lucky break

That was your first mistake
You took your lucky break
And broke it in two
Now what can be done for you?
You broke it in two

Too many people sharing party lines
Too many people never sleeping late
Too many people paying parking fines
Too many hungry people losing weight

That was your first mistake
You took your lucky break and broke it in two
Now what can be done for you?
You broke it in two

Too many people preaching practices
Don't let them tell you what you wanna be
Too many people holding back
This is crazy and baby, it's not like me

That was your last mistake
I find my love awake and waiting to be
Now what can be done for you?
She's waiting for me
Yeah, oh, whoa

[VJOFan]

As long as the education system in the U.S.is primarily structured on a for profit model and the public mostly sees education’s primary outcome to be job training, ideas like the one quoted in the OP will be common.

Education is one sector of a society where a socialized system does and has worked. If taking a degree doesn’t mean mortgaging your future and it’s possible to start something and switch to something else without having “wasted” the time and spent all your money, the harm to the individual and society of studying something less marketable is greatly reduced or eliminated. On the other side, the school doesn’t necessarily need to feed itself by constantly expanding student numbers.

My reference for this has always been Denmark. Traveling through there in the 1990’s I had a great chat with one of the BnB owners about “free” university. They have debates for improving their system, but the broad strokes of maintaining education as a public good enjoys wide support. The system persists today. https://denmark.dk/society-and-business ... -education

[tbdana]

Excellent post.

[Bach5G]

A fellow recently told me about his son, a bass player, who attended N Texas before ending up in NY via Cincinnati. He worked as a bassist in NYC but eventually retrained in IT. Now given the state of IT, he’s thankful he has music to fall back on.

[sf105]

This just popped up on another list I'm on:
“One of the most important things that I discovered about a university education was that it isn't there to teach you things: You can do that yourself and will need to throughout your career. It's there to give you a guided tour of your ignorance.”

[harrisonreed]

This just popped up on another list I'm on:
“One of the most important things that I discovered about a university education was that it isn't there to teach you things: You can do that yourself and will need to throughout your career. It's there to give you a guided tour of your ignorance.”

I'm not here to knock the act of going to music school or getting a performance degree to the extent of some others, but in terms of getting a dose of reality, outside of the conservatories that are being highly selective, I have not found this to be the case for the vast majority of people I have worked with who are performance majors. They generally do not feel like their teachers were doing that. I do have just a slice of the population of graduated performance majors that I get to work with and are my friends, but yeah, the conversations I've had with them do not paint that picture.

They like their teachers, learned a lot, but many feel like their teachers should have been, I don't know, harder on them. Or more realistic with them.

*Edit sp.

[atopper333]

This just popped up on another list I'm on:
“One of the most important things that I discovered about a university education was that it isn't there to teach you things: You can do that yourself and will need to throughout your career. It's there to give you a guided tour of your ignorance.”

Well, that is an interesting concept. I think that could be applicable to some…and I’m not here to argue that as an absolute, but I do think that approach in itself is indicative of a certain mindset that can be…institutional.

If a university education is not there to teach you things, then I strive to understand the purpose. Real life experience can give you a harsh tour of your ignorance. The opposite of ignorance is knowledge. Shouldn’t the university education be there to help teach you how to learn after identifying ignorance? Maybe give you the tools to understand that there is knowledge out there that you may not even have considered? Or possibly teach you an approach to find your blind spots and develop the resources needed to shrink them as much as possible?

Not a music degree holder or anything, just someone who has spent time on the other side of this. Self introspection is a useful tool, it can help to reduce arrogance and promote growth. If all it is is just a guided tour of your ignorance, then what exactly does it do for growth from that ignorance?

These questions aren’t ment to be a counter point, I’m just seeking an understanding of this is all.

[Macbone1]

Absolutely a degree is important, in all the same ways it's important in any other line of work. It's about the connections you make, the soft and hard skills you learn, the basics. Not everyone grows up in a giant metro area full of pros.

Great points. I took a music degree for the reason most of us did (passion for music). Also because l'm from a sleepy backwater town where Lawrence Welk was considered the musical pinnacle. I had much to learn.
Yes, music school is trade school, at least the music classes. For proof, military bands treat musicians as enlisted tradespeople no matter how many degrees they have. Many soldier, sailor, marine and airman musicians have more education and higher GPAs than some of the officers around them.

[Macbone1]

It's past time to stop kidding ourselves and our young college bound people. Review every college music performance major program and shut down each one that doesn't place at least 1/3 of graduates in a performing career within 1 yr of graduating. That will help balance supply with demand. Kidding/not kidding.

[officermayo]

Popped up on FB......

"The following may come off a bit strong, but it’s just my opinion that anyone teaching or performing music is welcome to poke holes in.

I have a complicated stance on music school; whether it be for education or performance. While I think the premise is great, I have many friends/students who feel they didn’t get their money’s worth, are in an insurmountable amount of debt, or that have left the industry completely.

Though I had great experiences with my degrees, when I think about my time as a student, or my current situation working in music education with college-aged students, it has opened my eyes to some bigger picture things that would be part of my “TED Talk” if I was ever thrown on stage. These things are certainly part of my rehearsed spiel to any student asking for advice.

The worst thing a college music student can do is: only what they are supposed to do in their syllabi. Things like… go to class, study for that class, and get good grades until they graduate, hoping for the world to great them with that dream job. This is how you get Julliard performance graduates serving coffee as they wait for jobs to open up, and suddenly decades go by. (Listen, the world needs exceptional coffee makers, this is not a dig on that industry… a good latte is $6 now, the joke’s on us.)

The best thing a college music student can do is: everything they possibly can outside of class. You have been given four years to be mentored by professors, surrounded by blossoming musicians looking to collaborate, and time you’ll never have again before life gets more complicated.

School should be used as the well of support, or the launchpad to projects; not the only goal. You’re not going to school to go to school… (or maybe you are, if this is you stop reading) You’re going to school to begin building a career in music, which relies on community, exposure (the good kind), and trying/failing at things to build wisdom.

I guess what I’m saying is, play in that quintet. Form a band. Write music and have your friends play it. Conduct a high school musical pit band. Make weird social media music videos. Learn another skill/hobby outside of music so you can diversify your serotonin (and income).

You never know what any side project will lead to. Say yes to everything; you’ll learn how to say no eventually. (Or so I’m told ) Nearly all of my friends that have a musical job that is fulfilling/pays the bills (which may not always be the same thing) ended up there after a series of being in the right places at the right times. Seek out being in rooms doing cool things with people that are doing cool things, even while in school.

You’ll hit the ground running after graduation. While nothing is guaranteed in this insane industry, you’ll certainly give yourself a fighting chance, meet some rad people, and hopefully have a blast doing it.

TL;DR: music school should be the foundation, not the destination."

[sf105]

TL;DR: music school should be the foundation, not the destination."

very much so.

[JTeagarden]

I've talked to a few HR recruiters who old me that musicians were good candidates for computer jobs. Of course this was before the days of a glut of computer science majors.

If you throw a brick into a London amateur orchestra you'll hit someone who works in IT. There's the long-standing connection between maths and music, it's a job that suits people who are used to precision and discovering structure, and for a long time it was an excellent way to make a living.

I think it's more "the kind of things people in the educated middle classes tend to focus on."

[sf105]

If you throw a brick into a London amateur orchestra you'll hit someone who works in IT. There's the long-standing connection between maths and music, it's a job that suits people who are used to precision and discovering structure, and for a long time it was an excellent way to make a living.

I think it's more "the kind of things people in the educated middle classes tend to focus on."

Neither of us have the data but the proportion seems significant to me. My take is that there are a lot of ex-musicians in London and IT has been a good industry to retrain into. Maybe all the PR people were partying at the relevant stage of their lives.

[sf105]

This just popped up on another list I'm on:
“One of the most important things that I discovered about a university education was that it isn't there to teach you things: You can do that yourself and will need to throughout your career. It's there to give you a guided tour of your ignorance.”

Well, that is an interesting concept. I think that could be applicable to some…and I’m not here to argue that as an absolute, but I do think that approach in itself is indicative of a certain mindset that can be…institutional.

If a university education is not there to teach you things, then I strive to understand the purpose. Real life experience can give you a harsh tour of your ignorance. The opposite of ignorance is knowledge. Shouldn’t the university education be there to help teach you how to learn after identifying ignorance? Maybe give you the tools to understand that there is knowledge out there that you may not even have considered? Or possibly teach you an approach to find your blind spots and develop the resources needed to shrink them as much as possible?

Not a music degree holder or anything, just someone who has spent time on the other side of this. Self introspection is a useful tool, it can help to reduce arrogance and promote growth. If all it is is just a guided tour of your ignorance, then what exactly does it do for growth from that ignorance?

These questions aren’t ment to be a counter point, I’m just seeking an understanding of this is all.

This is getting a bit philosophical. I'd argue that learning about things you didn't even know you were missing is still gaining knowledge. And, yes, lots of higher education institutions are not very good at educating. The equivalent of the top soloist who can't teach is the top researcher professor who can't teach (seen a few of those).

In my day job, I seem to be in a minority who think that a specialist degree is a good thing, partly because there are a lot of bad ones and inadequate faculty. What I look for in a graduate is not the ability to jump into a job unsupervised, because almost none of them are ready, but an awareness of skills they need to work on.

Unfortunately, the explosion in costs has meant that students now need to focus on paying off their debts in the short term, rather than learning for the long term. Money corrupts the system.

[tbdana]

Should we limit theater arts degrees because unemployment among actors is so high? How much do we really need to police what people study?

Seems to me that, if anything, it's the cost of such an education that should be discussed, not whether or not people should have access to it.

[harrisonreed]

It's true. With the number of qualified candidates produced each year and the number of programs, supply and demand should ostensibly be pushing down the cost of a performance degree to pennies on the dollar.

But that isn't happening. There are a lot of programs but I don't think the number is growing together with the number of students produced. The whole "not enough gigs" things. But also as we've discussed, people go into these degrees and then don't get a career in that field, at a pretty high rate. I think this is part of why the cost can keep going up and up.

There is some sweet spot where you have a lot of programs but not an excessive amount, and these programs can take on a lot of students but not everyone, and then people get their degree and then do something else instead for their career. So the cost can stay high.

Some of that probably comes down to a degree from "Steve out by the river", even if Steve is the best teacher in the world, not being seen as valuable as a UNT degree.

[tbdana]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I just came across this and thought it was funny and apropos to the thread, so thought I'd share.

[Wilktone]

There are some very interesting instruments there, where can I get one?

Reminds me of the Shew Horn.

[BGuttman]

I don't think that's a double belled trumpet -- it's more a trumpet with a mouthpiece for tuba players