Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:51 am
LOTS of great information here.
Speaking of Frank Sinatra... LISTEN to what he does with melodies ... especially rhythmically. Listen, don't just hear.
When you're learning improvising, don't try to be Watrous or Fontana, try to be Sinatra. Make melodies that fit, the simpler the better.
I met Watrous at NAMM one year and he told me the same thing about improvising. He said "just play pretty melodies".
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:30 pm
by Bach5G
When did Bill Watrous just play pretty melodies?
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 5:53 pm
by BGuttman
Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:30 pm
When did Bill Watrous just play pretty melodies?
You aren't going to start improvising like Bill Watrous. You start simply and evolve.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:22 pm
by Doug Elliott
His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.
I haven't checked YouTube but some of it is probably there.
Here: (Side 1)
(Side 2)
Back then records were recorded on both sides.....
Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:54 pm
by BGuttman
Good models to emulate, Doug.
He really plays close to the melody on the tunes. Just little things here and there. This is a good way to get your feet wet without sounding like you are lost or have no clue what you are doing.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 11:28 pm
by harrisonreed
Mematic_meme_20210129_152732.jpg
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:22 am
by Wilktone
baileyman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:53 am
If I recall Hal's play/rest included exercises like, play two measures, rest two, repeat, and every variation on that idea, like, play one, rest three, play two beats, rest six, whatever, but all this in time, so the rest is also in time. Play the rests, they're music, too.
Yes! But again, just to make sure Crook's point is clear, you're not focused on playing perfectly in time (or worrying about note choices or rhythmic variety, etc.) while working on the "pacing" exercises, you're only concerned with play/rest. If you're practicing some really odd play/rest patterns it's going to be easy to get lost in the form or loose track of the time, etc. That's ok. You'll spend time next week (or whenever) working on that topic.
He also does a time stretching exercise, but it sure seems worthwhile to first be recognized for having strong time feel before messing around with something that otherwise sounds like a big error. Most tromboners start on time, time stretch for four, take a breath, then start the next four on time, etc.
"Stretching the Time" is the first topic in Section II of Crook's "How To Improvise" book. In Section I he has the topic "Time Feel." In addition to practicing the general idea of putting all rhythms perfectly in the pocket of the groove, he has exercises that eliminate other aspects of improvisation so you can more easily put your attention on the time feel.
With a single note, play repeated attacks in tempo using consecutive 'swing' 8th notes only . . . Use the play/rest approach, vary the phrase lengths. Repeat with downbeat accents only. . . Repeat applying only ubeat accents. . . Repeat applying a random mixture of accents. . . .Repeat adding syncopated rhythms. . . Repeat using 2 different notes, chord arpeggios, and conventional 7-note scales."
The bold emphasis above is mine, to reiterate that resting while you're practicing is not only to add musical variety to your improvisations, but also to give you a chance to think about what you just played and evaluate how well you did it. Then you think about what's coming up and how to play it correctly.
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:22 pm
His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.
"Someplace Else," by Watrous with the Patrick Williams Orchestra is another one. A couple improvisations you'd expect from Watrous, but mostly just beautiful melodies. I haven't put that album on in a long time, but have it on right now. I remember noticing some spots in the record where Watrous is holding out some incredibly long phrases and you can hear him sniffing through his nose if you listen closely enough while circular breathing.
Learning to play strong melodies isn't just to give you something musical to play that is simpler than intricate bop lines. When you get down to the details of what makes a melody from a standard so expressive you'll find that the bop solos also have the same features, albeit with much more complex rhythms. Memorizing the melody of the tunes you're playing isn't just to play without music, it's so that you can internalize the melodic language of jazz.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:43 am
by Bach5G
Frank Vignola, jazz guitarist, advises that by the time you learn 200 tunes, you’ll have no trouble improvising.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:23 pm
by Posaunus
Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:22 pm
His very first album, titled William Russell Watrous.
Here: (Side 1)
(Side 2)
Mostly just playing the tunes, with strings. Similar to the albums Urbie was putting out at about the same time. I was heavily influenced by both.
Thanks to Trombone Keiji for posting this on YouTube. The LP album was never released on CD. But you can buy the vinyl on Amazon for a mere $99.95 (+ $3.99 shipping) !!
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:45 am
by soseggnchips
Here's a little improvisation exercise that I like. If you're interested in dipping your toe in the water, spend about 15 minutes a day on this for the next week and see how you get on:
Monday
Before your practice, find a backing track that is just a Dm7 chord vamping over and over. Aebersold, YouTube, Band-in-a-Box - any will do. Just make sure it's at a reasonable tempo.
For today, all you need to do is play one note against that backing track: D. This isn't a long tone exercise, though - you need to make it interesting. Try different rhythms, start in different parts of the bar. Play loud, play soft, use different articulations. Can you play something that is musical and interesting on just one note?
Tuesday
You're going to do the same thing again, but now you're going to add in a second note: F. As before, play along with the backing track, but now try creating simple patterns using F and D. Don't let your mind wander! Really listen to the sound of the notes you're playing. What does the D sound like against this chord? What does the F sound like? How does it sound going from D to F and F to D?
When your 15 minutes is up, put your trombone down. You're going to play your backing track one more time, but this time, you're going to sing the two notes you've just been playing. If you were paying attention, after listening to those two notes for 15 minutes they should be pretty well locked in your mind. Remember how they sounded against the chord, and sing some patterns using those notes. For this exercise, I suggest actually singing the names of the notes, rather than just a syllable like 'ah'.
Wednesday to Friday
On Wednesday, do the same again but now add the note G as well.
On Thursday, do the same, but add the note A.
On Friday, do the same, but add the note C.
Don't skip the singing part! This is about building your ear, not your muscle memory!
Saturday and Sunday
At this point, you should now have 5 notes you can play against the Dm7 chord: DFGAC. Crucially, if all's gone to plan, you shouldn't just 'know' you can play those notes, you should be starting to hear what each of them sounds like in relation to that chord.
If so, you can try flipping the process on its head: set your backing track going, but before picking up your trombone, sing a phrase using the notes you've been practicing. Start simply - a short phrase using 2 or 3 notes, not the full set of 5. Pick up your trombone, and play the phrase you've just sung. Did the notes match? If so, good! See if you can do it with a slightly longer or more complicated phrase. If not, don't worry - keep trying, simplifying your phrases if necessary.
At this stage, it's a good idea to start asking yourself some 'what if' questions:
What does it sound like if I put a chromatic note in between the D and the C? (D C# C or C C# D)
What do different groups of 3 sound like? (DFG? FGA? FDC? ADF?) How about groups of 4? (AGFD? GFDC?)
What does it sound like if I step into each of my 5 notes from a semitone below?
Be inquisitive! Improvisation is as much about exploring and finding sounds you like as it is about a fixed body of knowledge.
Review
So what have you been learning this past week? Technically, you've been working on using a D minor pentatonic scale against a Dmin7 chord. This isn't the 'jazziest' of scales, but it's functional and will sound good against that chord in a variety of contexts and styles. More fundamentally though, what you've been doing is training your brain with the sound of each note of that scale when played over that chord. If you continue down that path, you'll get to a point where you can hear a melody over that chord in your head, and know instantly what the notes are that you need to play.
Combine that with a good theoretical knowledge of chords and scales (e.g. the knowledge that a D minor pentatonic will work over a Dmin7 chord) and you have a two-pronged approach you can use: you know on an intellectual level what notes will work, but more than that, through experimentation and experience you develop an intuitive 'feel' for how different notes (and different patterns of notes) sound over a given chord.
So, where to go next?
You could repeat the whole process, but up a semitone (on Ebm7) - you'd then know all the chords to 'So What'. Here's a great J.J. Johnson version for inspiration:
You could repeat the process but up a 4th (on Gm7) - you'd then be about halfway to being able to play a minor blues, or a standard like 'Summertime' (here's a nice Chet Baker recording to give you some ideas:
You could Google some stock ii-V7 licks in C (one of the most common jazz chord progressions) and try playing them over your Dm7 backing track to get a feel for how those patterns sound. Here's a basic one to get you started: DFAC BAGF.
You could repeat the process using the exact same notes but over an Fmaj7 chord. You'd then have a feel for playing over Fmaj7 and Dm7, and would be about halfway to being able to play over a turnaround - another standard jazz chord progression.
Final thoughts
The important thing to remember is that it will take time: you're training a mental facility that you've probably not had much use for in the past - it's like learning a new language. Take it slow, have fun and don't be afraid to experiment: remember that in improvisation the question is not 'is this right or wrong?' but 'do I like the way this sounds?' I'd also argue that jazz is like science: progress usually starts not with 'eureka!', but 'hmm... that's interesting'.
Anyway, a much longer post than I'd intended - I hope someone out there finds it useful!
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:50 pm
by Wilktone
That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.
The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.
Dave
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2021 2:49 pm
by Bach5G
I am listening to Steve Davis on my Alexa. Eminently transcribable.
Re: How do I learn to improvise so I don't suck?
Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:53 am
by soseggnchips
Wilktone wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 1:50 pm
That's a great first post, soseggnchips! I think it's very useful.
The only thing I'd add is to reiterate something that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. It's important to spend a little time just jamming too, just letting your ear and mood be your guide. It probably shouldn't be most of your practice time, but since that's our goal when performing it's a process that we should practice too.
Dave
Thanks Dave. I completely agree with your suggestion - loads of good advice in this thread!