Bach bass madness
- Burgerbob
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Bach bass madness
Pictured are most of my basses. I have another corporation 50B on the way for some reason...
Horn on the left is an '80s 50B3OG that I had John Sandhagen swap Shires rotors into. I love the wrap now, and boy howdy does it play about 1000X better than the stock Bach valves it had before. In the previous iteration, it would hit a hard dynamic cap at around maybe a forte where it would just stop working. The low range wasn't horrible, but had an even lower dynamic cap. Now it has a great vintage color (gold bell maybe?) and actually plays in all ranges and dynamics. The articulations really pop, too. Playing some jazz etudes on this today, it felt right at home.
The horn with the shiny valve caps is a Meinlschmidt Open Flow valve set with reverse tuning slide connector from an Edwards adapted for my Bach corp bells (one with screw ring, one without). This is a monster of an instrument. The Open Flows are purported to be .615 in my set, which makes them ridiculously open but still easy to play. They don't have quite the same width to the sound that very open Thayers would have, but are easier to play and have a very smooth, fast action. This horn, with the screwbell, has almost no dynamic limit that I can find. Even my last horn (stainless thayers, different screwbell, Edwards dual bore slide) would stop responding at a certain point and was much, much harder to play. The non-screwbell is a lighter, fast responding bell that does have a dynamic limit, but has a great color and a great sound in general. It's probably my favorite to play.
I have two slides right now, with the 50B coming I will have another.
The slide on top is an Edwards V slide- single bore, gold tubes, yellow crook. I haven't had much luck with single bore slides for a while. 50 slides are too stuffy, or inconsistent, and they all feel like they are muffling my inputs. I had a standard Edwards single bore for a while, but it played so badly with my Thayer horn at the time that I traded it for this one. It also didn't work with the Thayer horn, but it has really worked on the other Bachs I've had. It has a really great sound and color that I don't get from standard material Edwards slides, and a much better response and action than anything I've had from Bach.
The other slide is a standard Shires B62/78 dual bore with yellow tubes and nickel crook. This slide plays very, very well on everything, and actually seals in 7th position, unlike my old Edwards. My only issue with it right now is that the Shires tenon doesn't quite fit Bach receivers (flops over, doesn't thread all the way). I had it torched off and replaced with an Edwards tenon. Problem solved, right? Nope, it fits exactly the same and doesn't thread. Going to buy a new Edwards tenon that should solve it for once and all, I think... This slide has a nice wide sound, lots of core, and just easier to play for me than any of the single bores I have had.
My leadpipes currently in use are a stock Bach 50 leadpipe with a threaded ring on it, an Edwards 2SS, and Shires B2.
I talk a lot about dynamic limits and running into them here. Some members here might take that to mean I'm a total meathead that's only concerned with playing loud. Maybe you're right! However, as I have become a more relaxed and efficient player, I have discovered the limits to my instruments. My tenors actually do this better than my basses, which is why I attribute it to the trombones. I want some color as I play louder, but I don't want to lose the core entirely as I approach that point, which some horns definitely do. As singers would say, never shout. Always sing.
This is all played with my Greg Black 1G .312 #2 (one of them, anyway). I went through my collection of bass pieces a couple weeks ago, recording a couple excerpts and writing down my thoughts. Listening blind, I picked out the Greg Blacks every time, as well as preferring how they played. I've been trying to get my ego out of my equipment choice... turns out this time that it came out the same!
Thanks for reading this long, dumb post... As I work through all these combinations, I'm thinking about just selling it all and buying a Shires bell section. We'll see!
Also, the horn I will be playing the most in the next month? The Yamaha 830 at work.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
NICEEEEEE. Those really are some nice horns, and well customized to your liking. I'm generally afraid to mess with anything, so my bass remains my Yamaha 612. I figure if Phil Teele could get it to work, I can probably make something out of it.
I've been trying to get equipment out of my head, as I've realized I really built up a "fleet" of trombones with more worry about "covering basses" than about getting something that really works for me.
I've been trying to get equipment out of my head, as I've realized I really built up a "fleet" of trombones with more worry about "covering basses" than about getting something that really works for me.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
I had a realization a few months ago that I had some horns that weren't very good, at least for me, and I couldn't really justify why I had them. I've since pared down to two tenors that are some of the best I have ever played, a contra... that gets the job done, and I'm still working on the basses. It's really the tenors that made me realize how good a trombone could be, and how much I was giving up by just having horns that were ok.
I have a friend that got one of Phil's 612s... Not what I would probably choose to play (dependent and all) but it's an amazing horn.
I have a friend that got one of Phil's 612s... Not what I would probably choose to play (dependent and all) but it's an amazing horn.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- RConrad
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Re: Bach bass madness
It's funny, I was just watching a few of your videos about mouthpieces and some of your horns as I've been working on improving my own sound lately. It reminds me that it's alright for me to not like the rotors on the Rath I borrow.
Robert C
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Be picky! In today's world, there's no reason to compromise (at least at some level).
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- TheBoneRanger
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Re: Bach bass madness
Nice stash!
I'm planning a dependent valve section build for my early Elkhart Bach 50 using Meinlschmidts, though probably a more standard bore size.
The slide talk is interesting. My 50 slide (w/Kanstul 169 lead pipe) sounds pretty good, but is a little covered sounding, and the upper register is a little finicky. If you get it exactly right, it's fine, but not much margin for error. I've played the horn with a single bore Edwards slide and a similar Shires slide, and each of them were easier to navigate. Much more evenness and resonance, but it somehow felt like it lost a little character. Perhaps when I do the valve conversion, I'll get Shires to make me their version of a 50 slide (B62LYC?)
Andrew
I'm planning a dependent valve section build for my early Elkhart Bach 50 using Meinlschmidts, though probably a more standard bore size.
The slide talk is interesting. My 50 slide (w/Kanstul 169 lead pipe) sounds pretty good, but is a little covered sounding, and the upper register is a little finicky. If you get it exactly right, it's fine, but not much margin for error. I've played the horn with a single bore Edwards slide and a similar Shires slide, and each of them were easier to navigate. Much more evenness and resonance, but it somehow felt like it lost a little character. Perhaps when I do the valve conversion, I'll get Shires to make me their version of a 50 slide (B62LYC?)
Andrew
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Re: Bach bass madness
Yeah, I hear you. Once you play a horn that really "meshes" with you, there isn't a reason to compromise, outside of specialty horns like a Jazz horn, or an Alto, etc. When i was still buying horns, I was thinking "well I need to have a Bach type horn and a Conn 88H type horn etc etc". That really wasn't the best way to go about it, though the horns I did get are both quite nice (Kanstul 1570/1588), though not being able to get parts in the future is a bit worrysome.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:14 pm I had a realization a few months ago that I had some horns that weren't very good, at least for me, and I couldn't really justify why I had them. I've since pared down to two tenors that are some of the best I have ever played, a contra... that gets the job done, and I'm still working on the basses. It's really the tenors that made me realize how good a trombone could be, and how much I was giving up by just having horns that were ok.
I have a friend that got one of Phil's 612s... Not what I would probably choose to play (dependent and all) but it's an amazing horn.
I always was trying go get a better look at Phil's 612. I could never tell whether he had he the split triggers, or just went with the original "stacked" triggers. I tried out an older 612 at Dillon Music a while ago, and honestly didn't like it as much compared to my own. I also tried my horn compared to some more "boutique" dependent basses, and honestly for my level, I didn't notice any improvement, so I just decided "this is my bass". It doesn't have any condition issues so there's no reason for me to really need another.
David S. - daveyboy37 from TTF
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
Bach 39, LT36B, 42BOF & 42T, King 2103 / 3b, Kanstul 1570CR & 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612 RII, YBL-822G & YBL-830, B&H Eb Tuba, Sterling 1056GHS Euphonium,
Livingston Symphony Orchestra NJ - Trombone
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Re: Bach bass madness
You ever consider going back to thayers? Maybe the shires lone star? Other option is you sell everything you own just to buy a latzsch contrabass..
- Neo Bri
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Re: Bach bass madness
Fun to see this collection of stuff. I really like Bachs, too. My current main bass is a Bach 50 Corporation modified and rebuilt by Mich Rath with dual Hagmanns. Sweet horn.
Brian
Former United States Army Field Band
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Former United States Army Field Band
https://keegansoundandvision.com/index.php/media/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnbwO7 ... eTnoq7EVwQ
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- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
There is some character that a good 50 slide brings to the table. I just find that the character typically covers up everything else... it ends up not sounding like me, but like the slide wants me to sound. I think I like to rely on the bell to supply the sound for that Bach-ness.TheBoneRanger wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:08 am Nice stash!
The slide talk is interesting. My 50 slide (w/Kanstul 169 lead pipe) sounds pretty good, but is a little covered sounding, and the upper register is a little finicky. If you get it exactly right, it's fine, but not much margin for error. I've played the horn with a single bore Edwards slide and a similar Shires slide, and each of them were easier to navigate. Much more evenness and resonance, but it somehow felt like it lost a little character. Perhaps when I do the valve conversion, I'll get Shires to make me their version of a 50 slide (B62LYC?)
Andrew
Right now, if I do sell all this... a Lone Star bell section is my first choice.Bassbonechandler wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 8:34 am You ever consider going back to thayers? Maybe the shires lone star? Other option is you sell everything you own just to buy a latzsch contrabass..
I have a friend with one of those. How many are out there?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
To the OP: how many different trombones have you owned?
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Oh boy. I had a count of Bachs I've owned, but not trombones... I think the 50B on the way is Bach #23 or #24. Trombones? Maybe mid 30s.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
I still have a Voight contra and the Jankmeister 3B for my cool cards!
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
Plus mods-I'd hate to ask how many mods you've paid for! At what point do you say one of them is good enough? I'm not judging you, just curious when you say good enough.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
The bass with the Meinlschmidts is definitely the closest to a perfect horn that I have gotten to. Usually, I get something, and if it has some promise, I'll do some mods to see where it ends up. If I'm still not happy, it usually moves along.
I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.
I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.
I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.
I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
The only place to buy a cheap house in California is in Paradise -- "slightly charred"
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
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Re: Bach bass madness
So what instruments are made to be more consistent than anything else? Edwards and shires?Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:56 pm The bass with the Meinlschmidts is definitely the closest to a perfect horn that I have gotten to. Usually, I get something, and if it has some promise, I'll do some mods to see where it ends up. If I'm still not happy, it usually moves along.
I think the only truly bad horn was a 42BO I bought from DJ back in undergrad. A dog of a 42.
I'm thinking of a Shires because I know I won't be wowed by it daily, but it will be consistent and get the job done. This stuff is fun but it takes time and money, money that could be going towards an eventual house in oh-so-cheap California.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Yup, the orchestral horns from either.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
I'll try to be a little picky when I on the market for a bass trombone soon but not too picky considering my small budget.
So this is just the engineer student in me but I was wondering what it is about the Bach 50's slide that changes your sound so much. I'm neither an experienced enough trombonist nor far enough into school to say myself but I find those characteristics interesting about horns.
Robert C
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Heavier construction (thicker tubes), leadpipe, crook... it all combines.RConrad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 3:56 pm
So this is just the engineer student in me but I was wondering what it is about the Bach 50's slide that changes your sound so much. I'm neither an experienced enough trombonist nor far enough into school to say myself but I find those characteristics interesting about horns.
I have played several great 42 slides, and my current A47 slide is quite good in all ways, so I think there are probably 50 slides out there that I would like. I just haven't found one (maybe a dozen so far).
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
well, that's not a lot of fun... Also, I haven't spent more than $3k on a trombone, ever. To spend upwards of $7k (with the trip and hotel and all that) for 1 instrument is a little more than I can do at once.norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 pm Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
That said, I may sell all of these toys and go do just that this year.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
$3k multiplied by how many instruments you've bought and you could have probably have at least 4 Edwards or Shires by now, and have exactly what you want. I'm not criticizing or judging your decisions, I'm just suggesting your search for the ideal instrument might be easier if you take a different path.Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:42 pmwell, that's not a lot of fun... Also, I haven't spent more than $3k on a trombone, ever. To spend upwards of $7k (with the trip and hotel and all that) for 1 instrument is a little more than I can do at once.norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 pm Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
That said, I may sell all of these toys and go do just that this year.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Well, I look at it this way. If I had scrimped up enough for a new Shires or Edwards at the beginning of my masters (which was not possible at the time), my playing has changed enough in those years that I would have probably changed major components/horns probably 3 or 4 times anyway. This is a much cheaper method of figuring out what my face and sound concept want in the end... and it's more interesting.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
Sometimes every possible combination from a boutique manufacturer still won't have what you're looking for. They're not a guaranteed solution, and sometimes only a specific vintage horn will do. Every manfuacturer, boutique or not, has their own flavor. That's why the hunt is fun!norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 pm Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
Yup. I really prefer the sound of my Bachs to any boutique horn I've tried, I'm just finally willing to sacrifice a bit of that.Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 6:33 pmsometimes only a specific vintage horn will do.norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 pm Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
Sacrifice the sound in exchange for? Ease of playability? Consistency?
- TheBoneRanger
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Re: Bach bass madness
Only a Bach sounds like a Bach. If that's the sound you hear in your head, it's hard to get there without at least a Bach bell and tuning slide...norbie2018 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:37 pm Why search and spend so much coin when you can buy have a trombone fit to you by Edwards or Shires?
Andrew
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Re: Bach bass madness
If only a Bach will provide that sound you hear in your head then of course that is what you should play. I just find it hard to believe that a modern Edwards or Shires cannot get you there a whole lot easier.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
What I've found, and this may be total bunk, is that the easier a horn is, the more character it gives up. The harder it is (if it's a good horn, anyway), the more character it has. That's why the 70H I played a few years ago was so colorful, and almost impossible to play. Same with a Corp 50B2 I had for a while. Crazy, dark, vintage sound. Edwards B454? Extremely easy to play, and that's about it.
There's a happy medium that I think an upgraded Bach 50 can find, but boy is it hard to find.
There's a happy medium that I think an upgraded Bach 50 can find, but boy is it hard to find.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
Harder = more character? That is bunk. Boutique makers have proved that a trombone can be made that's easier to play, with predictable intonation, and all the character you want. Why not get an instrument that allows you an easier time to work on your craft? But I apologize, I didn't mean to hijack this thread. To the OP, I appreciate your passion to be your best and that includes finding the right equipment for you.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
I'm not coming to this with inexperience... I have played a ton of horns. These are just my observations. And many people choose to have the easier playing horn over the more interesting one, including me!
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
This part below is mine. I'm having trouble with the quote option. Ramhorn
I find this to be the case also based purely on my own experimenting over the years. I think it was Gabe Langfur in the old forum who put it best in an objective way (I'm paraphrasing from memory here, so please forgive any misquoting) He stated that on his Shires, the overtones just line up differently than on his Bach. He also spoke about the texture of each sound as the Shires being like silk and the Bach being like tweed. Having it explained that way helped me to look at it more objectively. I now think of the difference in sound between old and new horn designs in that way.
I like tweed, heck I would prefer corduroy if given the choice. But as an amateur, I don't have the time to practice my old Bach into submission. Having a boutique horn allows me to skip a couple of days of practice and not fall too far behind, because it is so easy to play.
In the mean time I'll keep scouring YouTube and other platforms for recordings with Tony Studd (my all time favourite) and try like heck to mimic what he is doing.
Ramhorn.
<Edited by Moderator to fix quote>
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Re: Bach bass madness
Interesting conversations.....
First off, I am glad you backed off my corp 50 Burgerbob... I passed it on unmodified as it was too good to mess with and the new owner realises what he has.... a great trombone that he can learn how to play... seriously good blow and the best Bach sound ever.
If a certain make has the qualities that you like, buy a good example and work at it..... the player needs to work at the instrument... as long as it is good, accept the fact that it will never be perfect and work at your side.
I've blown some real dogs from boutique makers... and some gems.... if you want a top end horn, manufacturer consistency is not so important... you just need to try a lot of what you like and find a good one....you only need one.
Decide how important sound is.... the sound of a particular make in your hands.... if it a big deal, get that horn and work at it.
Decide how important ease of playing is and see if you are willing to compromise sound for ease.
Remember, in a very competitive market, your sound is your biggest asset.
Chris
First off, I am glad you backed off my corp 50 Burgerbob... I passed it on unmodified as it was too good to mess with and the new owner realises what he has.... a great trombone that he can learn how to play... seriously good blow and the best Bach sound ever.
If a certain make has the qualities that you like, buy a good example and work at it..... the player needs to work at the instrument... as long as it is good, accept the fact that it will never be perfect and work at your side.
I've blown some real dogs from boutique makers... and some gems.... if you want a top end horn, manufacturer consistency is not so important... you just need to try a lot of what you like and find a good one....you only need one.
Decide how important sound is.... the sound of a particular make in your hands.... if it a big deal, get that horn and work at it.
Decide how important ease of playing is and see if you are willing to compromise sound for ease.
Remember, in a very competitive market, your sound is your biggest asset.
Chris
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Re: Bach bass madness
There is something to the sound/playability divide, but it doesn't have to be an either/or.
I own a very nice 70H (pre-WWII) and a very nice 50B (mid-60s) with a single Rotax valve. Both have texture to the sound - sort of a tough wooliness, like Harris tweed - that I haven't been able to recreate with Shires. I can get great sounds that work everywhere I go with the Shires - usually fitting in sections better than the Conn or the Bach - but I can't quite get that texture.
If I don't ask the Conn for the biggest volume levels or extreme ranges, it's as playable as anything. The Bach is not quite as nimble, and it's not the easiest in the high range, but when I play it exclusively for a couple of days it starts to open up nicely and I get used to what the high range needs. If I lived in a place where Bach was the norm, I could play this instrument very happily for almost everything I do.
I own a very nice 70H (pre-WWII) and a very nice 50B (mid-60s) with a single Rotax valve. Both have texture to the sound - sort of a tough wooliness, like Harris tweed - that I haven't been able to recreate with Shires. I can get great sounds that work everywhere I go with the Shires - usually fitting in sections better than the Conn or the Bach - but I can't quite get that texture.
If I don't ask the Conn for the biggest volume levels or extreme ranges, it's as playable as anything. The Bach is not quite as nimble, and it's not the easiest in the high range, but when I play it exclusively for a couple of days it starts to open up nicely and I get used to what the high range needs. If I lived in a place where Bach was the norm, I could play this instrument very happily for almost everything I do.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
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Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
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Re: Bach bass madness
Yes Gabe, I hear what you say. This is still (the UK) predominantly Conn land and ease of blending can be more worthwhile than ease of playing at times, though my 70H and 62H are easy enough.
Chris
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Re: Bach bass madness
Holtons. Easy to play. TONS of character!!!!!
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
There are amazing vintage horns out there that are easy to play, I'm sure. I have a friend with a quite stellar 62H that is open and has that Conn sound in spades. I'd love to find something that I didn't have to change in some way.
They are rare and typically expensive, though.
My Minick Holton 180 was not especially easy to play or good sounding, though I'm sure there's good examples out there as well.
And Chris is right, of course... I had a Shires setup that was quite mediocre, bordering on bad in the past. I don't want one of those again!
They are rare and typically expensive, though.
My Minick Holton 180 was not especially easy to play or good sounding, though I'm sure there's good examples out there as well.
And Chris is right, of course... I had a Shires setup that was quite mediocre, bordering on bad in the past. I don't want one of those again!
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
My experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.
/Tom
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Re: Bach bass madness
My super duper subjective two cents:
I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
Another example is a video by Toby Oft playing Bolero on youtube, directly switching between his standard Edwards and a Bach LT36G. The Bach just sounds so much richer and flavorful than the Edwards, on that excerpt, while the Edwards sounds very consistent and clear. Granted, bore size difference too. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=4S9sHesN_WU
I think there's definitely something to be said for boutique horns sounding less complex, generally speaking, than good vintage horns, with the tradeoff being vastly improved consistency up and down the horn and across dynamics.
My Edwards vs my Bachs follow the same trend. It's easier to play the fancy horn, but it is lacking some character.
I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
Another example is a video by Toby Oft playing Bolero on youtube, directly switching between his standard Edwards and a Bach LT36G. The Bach just sounds so much richer and flavorful than the Edwards, on that excerpt, while the Edwards sounds very consistent and clear. Granted, bore size difference too. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=4S9sHesN_WU
I think there's definitely something to be said for boutique horns sounding less complex, generally speaking, than good vintage horns, with the tradeoff being vastly improved consistency up and down the horn and across dynamics.
My Edwards vs my Bachs follow the same trend. It's easier to play the fancy horn, but it is lacking some character.
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Re: Bach bass madness
Gabe this is probably why I have such difficulty playing more modern instruments. I'm constantly fighting them to get the sound I want. As you know I'm tinkering with a Rath R9 at the moment. Easier for me to play than most modern instruments but even with the pipes you sent to try I'm not quite there(although 1 of those pipes is pretty good ).GabeLangfur wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:32 am There is something to the sound/playability divide, but it doesn't have to be an either/or.
I own a very nice 70H (pre-WWII) and a very nice 50B (mid-60s) with a single Rotax valve. Both have texture to the sound - sort of a tough wooliness, like Harris tweed - that I haven't been able to recreate with Shires. I can get great sounds that work everywhere I go with the Shires - usually fitting in sections better than the Conn or the Bach - but I can't quite get that texture.
If I don't ask the Conn for the biggest volume levels or extreme ranges, it's as playable as anything. The Bach is not quite as nimble, and it's not the easiest in the high range, but when I play it exclusively for a couple of days it starts to open up nicely and I get used to what the high range needs. If I lived in a place where Bach was the norm, I could play this instrument very happily for almost everything I do.
- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
There aren't many bad horns, but there are some. There are a majority, however, that are just OK. With the plethora of horns and options out there today, there's no reason to compromise with OK.imsevimse wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:03 amMy experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.
/Tom
Like I said, I don't think I've owned a bass yet that was an actual dog of a horn... But only a couple that were very good.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
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Re: Bach bass madness
I seem to recall Bret Steed doing something like this.bimmerman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:54 am I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
--Andy in OKC
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- Burgerbob
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Re: Bach bass madness
They bought one! And since it's one of the best examples of an 830 that I've played, I figured I may as well save my own horns and use theirs.
Aidan Ritchie, LA area player and teacher
- FeelMyRath
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Re: Bach bass madness
I'm also fairly sure it was a 2B vs an R2 so again there's a difference in bore size, much like the Oft clip.afugate wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:51 pmI seem to recall Bret Steed doing something like this.bimmerman wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:54 am I forget which member posted it on the old forum, but someone posted a youtube video playing a King 2B of some vintage back to back with his new shiny Rath, playing a couple choruses each. It was startling to hear the difference in sound between the horns-- it was clearly easier for him to play on the Rath and the sound was 'purer' for lack of a better word, but to my ears (and through youtube compression), rather sterile when compared to the King. The King was clearly more of a challenge to play but had such a rich tone. I haven't been able to find that video since then, unfortunately. This isn't a drag on his playing, which was excellent!
--Andy in OKC
Making the world better, one note at a time
Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Yorkshire, United Kingdom
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Re: Bach bass madness
In my experience, Bach instruments vary widely, and there are truly terrible ones out there. We had a student at Boston University who struggled to consistently make a quality sound. It turned out that her Bach 42BO was so terrible that nobody could consistently make a good sound on it.imsevimse wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:03 amMy experience is there are very few bad horns. The horns are just different. If you go with the horn most are nice horns but with their own character. If you want the horn to sound exactly the same then you have troubles and you will find some horns to be difficult. Its (what I think) because you try to make them into something they are not.
/Tom
My test is the F# in 5th position. On the bad Bachs I've played, that note feels like a completely different instrument from everything around it. On the good ones, it feels and sounds consistent through and around that F#. I don't know why; I just know that's been my observation.
Gabe Rice
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra
Faculty
Boston University School of Music
Kinhaven Music School Senior Session
Bass Trombonist
Hartford Symphony Orchestra
Rhode Island Philharmonic Orchestra
Vermont Symphony Orchestra