Small bore suggestions

[PaKETaZ]

Ok, I’m contemplating a trade with my Yamaha 891Z (508 bore, 8 bell).

I like it but I finally found I was on the wrong way: I think I’m a smaller gear person...
And I have a 640 wich I think can do the same job with the right mouthpiece, cleaner...

I understood when I played test my ugly King 606 I didn’t played for months: I really like its compact sound and projection. The 891Z plays bigger than expected.

Playing a 508, 525, 547: I’m like I overblow. Playing a 500: I’m like I transform overblowing to compression... Feeling and result are really different.

I’m looking to the 500 side, but it could be smaller, dual bore etc.

I listened to Thomann site samples very open-minded, and I found I liked the 2B Silversonic the most... Damned... The 897Z wasn’t too bad either.

I was not inclined to go vintage, but if the slide is fast and really smooth, why not...

I like it a bit dark too.

I’m not a jazz player. I play funk, commercial, reggae, latin.

What would be your suggestions please?

[Geordie]

I enjoyed using a good condition, well built Olds Special (mid-1950s) in both a Latin band and a soul/blues band. Worth trying if my experience is anything to go by. Of course you might react differently.

[BGuttman]

Conn 4H's go for good prices because they are not popular. I also like the TIS Conns: 38H, 40H.

Martin Committee or Imperial might work.

If you like the more modern sound, King 2B or 2B Plus; Yamaha 695; Benge 170.

Lots of fish to look for.

[Rusty]

If you like the 891z, the 897z is more of a ‘2b’ version. A good 2b or 2b+ would be great (although a brighter sound), another great horn is the Martin Urbie Green model.

Like others have aid though, plenty of options. It’d be best to go play a few first hand and see what you think.

[Fidbone]

Rath R1........ 500/510
Rath R10...... 500
Rath R12...... 481/491

All have superb build quality and amazing slides!!!!

Plus since you are based in France you could easily travel to Manchester and then on to the factory and choose the right combination/set up for you

[bellend]

Conn 6H.... 500

Conn 48H....500

Or, my personal favorite Conn 24H....483 bore but plays and sounds bigger than that, very underrated now a days.If you can find a 1960's one the slides are a bit lighter.

Check em' out here https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnLooksTrombone.html


King 2B+ ... 500 also a great horn

BellEnd

[disco]

I like the King 2b+ with the old heavy orange lacquer. Nice light slide and a big dark sound. The new yellow ones are a touch brighter in my opinion.

[baileyman]

... The 891Z plays bigger than expected.

Playing a 508, 525, 547: I’m like I overblow. Playing a 500: I’m like I transform overblowing to compression... Feeling and result are really different.

...I like it a bit dark too.

...

I wasn't going to say anything, because I'm stuck on small Bachs, but a couple things you say may indicate they would work for you.

"The 891Z plays bigger than expected." Because it IS big. So is a 16M. The bigness shows up in ensemble trying to blend with bright trumpets or small bones.

"Playing a 508, 525, 547: I’m like I overblow. Playing a 500: I’m like I transform overblowing to compression... Feeling and result are really different. " It seems like you may be blowing harder to get an edge on the sound? .500 and under should light up with less effort, and this makes more color available at less strenuous volumes.

"I like it a bit dark too." This has Bach written all over it. Dark but can be extremely colorful with overtones.

[brtnats]

Maybe barking up the wrong tree, but have you tried other leadpipes with the Z? Even with the stock pipes, I find mine has a pretty large tonal range. I play commercial and reggae/ska with it.

[PaKETaZ]

Thank you all for your inputs.

Maybe barking up the wrong tree, but have you tried other leadpipes with the Z?
(...)

I must admit I play with a Kanstul H8 leadpipe. Maybe it’s not the most appropriate for me actually: I have to get my hands back on the Wycliffe Gordon one. I didn’t keep it at home, to force me not to switch too often and concentrate on one gear at the moment.

I wasn't going to say anything, because I'm stuck on small Bachs, but a couple things you say may indicate they would work for you.
(...)

You know what? I wasn’t considering a Bach at all and I don’t know them (only 547 ones). But I find your analysis very relevant and I definitely put them at the top of the list now, thank you!

I think someone on the old TTF said something about somebody (sighs) rebuilding Bachs 12 (or 6?) to improve them. Unable to remember...

[bellend]

Small Bach's can be great....... but finding a great one is the quest!!!.......... there are a lot of not great ones out there from all era's or manufacture despite the hype about Mt. Vernons...........
To me the best blowing ones are the 16M (not really what your after from what you've said previously) and the model 6 which like the Conn 24H blows bigger than the numbers would suggest. If you can find a more modern version with a lightwieght nickle slide it might be worth consideration.
Just out of curiosity what mouthpiece are you using? If it's on the larger side changing horn probably won't make that much difference.

BellEnd

[PaKETaZ]

I play a DE XT103 rim with a D cup at the moment. I used to play a C+ cup too.

[brtnats]

[/quote]

I must admit I play with a Kanstul H8 leadpipe. Maybe it’s not the most appropriate for me actually: I have to get my hands back on the Wycliffe Gordon one. I didn’t keep it at home, to force me not to switch too often and concentrate on one gear at the moment.

[/quote]

Maybe worth a look. I played my 891Z at a ska gig on Saturday, mostly without a mic, with the Wycliffe leadpipe and the Yamaha equivalent of a 6.75C. I peeled paint of the walls.

[bellend]

Might be worth trying a C cup if you can get hold of one, a lot cheaper than a new horn

BellEnd

[PaKETaZ]

Might be worth trying a C cup if you can get hold of one, a lot cheaper than a new horn

BellEnd

Maybe I have to clarify things: I don’t necessarily want more edge. I want more core, more density.
I was thinking about something bigger in my sound concept, but it was obviously a mistake. I don’t really like recordings with this horn.

I find the 891Z (with the Kanstul leadpipe, I’ll give you that) too... diffuse.
And with a shallower cup, I think it’s too bright and missing thickness. That’s why I went to the D cup after years on the C+.

I thought I needed something bigger because I was overblowing. But now, I know the problem is... overblowing.
So: back to something more adequate in sound and go to work. That what I say to myself.

[bellend]

Fair enough the new horn route is the way forward then, and you have a whole world of choice.
I would add one more horn to my list of suggestions namely the Selmer Paris Bolero which is actually a .508 bore but makes a fantastic sound with loads of core. Do a search on YouTube for Al Grey playing The More I See You with the Basie band to hear a Bolero at full chat !!! As your're in France might be easier to get hold of one to try?

Good luck!

BellEnd

[PaKETaZ]

You’re right: there is one here, in exceptional shape, silver plated. €850 (about $960).

[PaKETaZ]

Ok, I got the genuine Wycliffe Gordon NY leadpipe back. And it’s obviously what the trombone needed!

I think it’s the more balanced leadpipe for this horn. Different, but also much better than the Andy Martin LA one.

It seems the vast majority plays the NY leadpipe, although a few people like the LA one of course. And even less another pipe. And it must be a reason for that. I would be curious to hear what 891Z players think about that. I may be wrong.

Anyway: I’m reconciled with my trombone. I wasn’t wrong when I chose it!

[brtnats]

I play with both pipes, but choose for very specific reasons. The NY pipe has better focus and ease of playing/thickness of sound in all dynamics. I use it for 90% of stuff, amplified and unamped.

I use the LA pipe when I’m playing with larger horns. It diffuses the sound, and changes the direction of projection from “forward” to more of a circle. I can do this with the NY, but it’s easier for me I dial in that timbre with the LA pipe.

[Cmillar]

I have a late '70's Bach 16 (the duo-bore slide in brass) with a late '70's 16M bell.

(...don't know if the new ones play the same...I'm sure they're similar)

Anyway, what I've done is have a King 3B crook put on the slide, and I now have a Brass Ark 32H leadpipe in addition to the stock Bach pipe.

The Brass Ark pipe is wonderful, in that it has really given the horn some 'core' all over the range. If I want a more diffuse sound, I can put the stock pipe in.

But, that all depends on what mouthpiece you put in the horn.

Right now I'm super happy with my setup. It's very versatile. I've had to really do some mouthpiece experimenting though since getting the Brass Ark pipe, because it can bring different qualities of any mouthpiece compared to the stock Bach pipe.

I used to own a Bach 16M a long time ago. Loved it, but I know that it never had the 'core' that this setup now has....or the 'zing' that I can get with the Brass Ark 32H pipe. I can get a real 'meaty' low end with this pipe as well, instead of having to really fight the stock Bach pipe to maintain tone quality.

[TromboneFox]

King 2bs and 3bs are great. The low end isn't very good on these horns but they're great for, say, funk, especially if you get way up there. They feel effortless. You can do a lot with a little.

[imsevimse]

I find the 891Z (with the Kanstul leadpipe, I’ll give you that) too... diffuse.

I ordered a 32H cupper leadpipe from Noah Gladstone to my YSL-891Z. On the website that leadpipe is sold for a .500 bore. This leadpipe is .508. I had to do a special order. The sound is better now.
/Tom

[PaKETaZ]

I ordered a 32H cupper leadpipe from Noah Gladstone to my YSL-891Z. On the website that leadpipe is sold for a .500 bore. This leadpipe is .508. I had to do a special order. The sound is better now.
/Tom

Interesting... You meant “copper”, right? Seamed or drawn?
How would you describe it compared to the NY leadpipe?

[imsevimse]

I ordered a 32H cupper leadpipe from Noah Gladstone to my YSL-891Z. On the website that leadpipe is sold for a .500 bore. This leadpipe is .508. I had to do a special order. The sound is better now.
/Tom

Interesting... You meant “copper”, right? Seamed or drawn?
How would you describe it compared to the NY leadpipe?

It is a seamed, copper leadpipe.

The "diffuse" character I felt of the 891Z is no more. I did not like the horn on lead before because the sound wasn't "clear" enough and the feel was a bit diffuse. FOR ME the original leadpipe is "mellow" and fits solo-work or second and third parts and maybe some classical music. It did not fit lead in a big band. The 32h leadpipe in copper helped to focus the sound, clearer articulation and added a "ping" to the sound which made it a better horn. I did the same with a Kanstul 1606 "Williams copy"and the switch solved the problem with the unfocused character of that horn too. The Kanstul 1606 "Williams copy" is a .500 horn which means I bought a regular 32h steamed copper leadpipe too.

A special order .508 leadpipe cost a little extra.

/Tom

[Trav1s]

Besson 8-10 - Underrated and great value in the sub .500" horns. I believe the 8-10 has a nickel outer slide and crook. (I picked one up on CL last spring with to learn jazz improv. I'd keep it but landed the 24H mentioned below. It is currently looking to be re-homed.)

Conn 6H.... 500

Conn 48H....500

Or, my personal favorite Conn 24H....483 bore but plays and sounds bigger than that, very underrated now a days.If you can find a 1960's one the slides are a bit lighter.

Check em' out here https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnLooksTrombone.html


King 2B+ ... 500 also a great horn

BellEnd

*Disclaimer - I am a Conn lover to the core

I second the 24H! Picked up a 1937 24H from Dave Ashley and been messing with it for a week so far. He told me that they are really great small horns. Paired with a Faxx 12c (because that is what I have handy) I am blown away by this horn. Plays much larger than I expected and the easy of the upper range is incredible. When I relax and trust the horn, the low range will speak in amazing ways. Certainly not a looker but an amazing player and value for what I have in it.

[Bloo]

I play a small bore King 3B Silversonic with an F attachment in my jazz band, and it's one of the best horns I've ever played. Other than that, you can't really go wrong with one of the suggestions above. Straight tenor horns are cheap enough and common enough that you can choose one of the solid "big" brands and still not spend a fortune.

[Cmillar]

[/quote]
It is a seamed, copper leadpipe.

The "diffuse" character I felt of the 891Z is no more. I did not like the horn on lead before because the sound wasn't "clear" enough and the feel was a bit diffuse. FOR ME the original leadpipe is "mellow" and fits solo-work or second and third parts and maybe some classical music. It did not fit lead in a big band. The 32h leadpipe in copper helped to focus the sound, clearer articulation and added a "ping" to the sound which made it a better horn. I did the same with a Kanstul 1606 "Williams copy"and the switch solved the problem with the unfocused character of that horn too. The Kanstul 1606 "Williams copy" is a .500 horn which means I bought a regular 32h steamed copper leadpipe too.

A special order .508 leadpipe cost a little extra.

/Tom
[/quote]

I'd concur with these thought in regards to my Bach 16 and the 32H lead pipe, but I have the brass edition of the pipe.

The guys at BrassArk just shaved down the .500 lead pipe in order to fit my Bach 16 upper slide (.495)

When I received it, it fit perfectly.

[ssking2b]

XO1632RGL-LT best .500 bore horn on the market!

[PaKETaZ]

I have a Yamaha 352 since this morning. A backup. I think the slide is a 354 slide, but I can be wrong. Anyway: I was amazed this slide can combine with my 891Z bell section!

The result is very interesting, very close to the sound concept I have at the moment.
A 500 with an 8 inches bell. The slide is a bit heavy, and the pitch is sharp, but...

I will investigate more tomorrow: I definitely have to play more this combo.

It gives me the idea of only finding a 695 slide maybe... Don’t really know if it would be easier/cheaper...

[PaKETaZ]

Ok: I like it A LOT! A shame Yamaha doesn’t have a 500 trombone in the actual pro line...
Or maybe the 897Z 490-494 would be very close?

Perhaps it’s time to think about a 500 carbon slide for my 891Z!

[imsevimse]

Ok, I’m contemplating a trade with my Yamaha 891Z (508 bore, 8 bell).

I like it but I finally found I was on the wrong way: I think I’m a smaller gear person...
And I have a 640 wich I think can do the same job with the right mouthpiece, cleaner...

I understood when I played test my ugly King 606 I didn’t played for months: I really like its compact sound and projection. The 891Z plays bigger than expected.

Playing a 508, 525, 547: I’m like I overblow. Playing a 500: I’m like I transform overblowing to compression... Feeling and result are really different.

I’m looking to the 500 side, but it could be smaller, dual bore etc.

I listened to Thomann site samples very open-minded, and I found I liked the 2B Silversonic the most... Damned... The 897Z wasn’t too bad either.

I was not inclined to go vintage, but if the slide is fast and really smooth, why not...

I like it a bit dark too.

I’m not a jazz player. I play funk, commercial, reggae, latin.

What would be your suggestions please?

Since you want suggestions in the .500 size with 8" bell I will raise my hand for the Benge 170 "freelance" model. It has a .500 bore, a light weight slide and an 8" bell. A very nice trombonet. It is like a light version of a Conn 6h which puts it in between a Conn and a King. It looks King-like because the slide and laquer shouts King but there is no King model to compete with this one, the closest is the King 2b+. It is sad they were only made for a short period. The "freelance" has a nice "edge" to the sound and crisp attacks if you want that. They are underrated but still not easy to find on the aftermarket, probably because they are trombones to keep.

/Tom