Intonation Repair Tool

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billyball
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Intonation Repair Tool

Post by billyball » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:52 am

Hi,

I'm looking to buy a product I read about on Jay Friedman's website called "The Intonation Repair Tool". I guess the idea is to train "Just Intonation". However, the website doesn't seem to be working. Does anyone know if it can be purchased elsewhere?

Also, has anyone tried it or had any success with it?

Thanks.

Non-Funcitonal Website
http://www.tkbbpress.com/html/intonatio ... _tool.html

Youtube Video Demonstration


Jay Friedman Commentary:
http://www.jayfriedman.net/articles/just_desserts
timothy42b
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by timothy42b » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:08 am

I notice that player is sharp on every pitch and has to adjust down.

That's probably true in real life.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by AndrewMeronek » Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:14 am

I've heard of it but haven't played with it. I like the idea. IMHO playing with drones is one of the easiest and best ways to experiment with just intonation, but breaking up that idea with what's in that video sounds fun. It's also very important to simply go out and listen to music in just intonation, whether you like a particular style or not. Bagpipe music (when done by someone who is really good) and barbershop quartets are common applications. Indian raga is also in just intonation. I highly recommend the string quartets of Ben Johnston to really get your ears opened up.

If you're interested, I have some articles on my blog pertaining to just intonation and some practical consequences in performance. Reference the articles from the "music tools" drop-down menu. https://andrewmeronek.com/music-tools/
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
timothy42b
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by timothy42b » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:59 am

I have been doing the opposite, playing with a drone in equal temperament. It's challenging.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by AndrewMeronek » Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:09 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:59 am
I have been doing the opposite, playing with a drone in equal temperament. It's challenging.
Yes, that would be. :shock:
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
boneagain
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by boneagain » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:09 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:59 am
I have been doing the opposite, playing with a drone in equal temperament. It's challenging.
No more major thirds for YOU! :biggrin:
afugate
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by afugate » Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:18 am

billyball wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:52 am
I'm looking to buy a product I read about on Jay Friedman's website called "The Intonation Repair Tool". I guess the idea is to train "Just Intonation".

Also, has anyone tried it or had any success with it?
I tried a couple of these. I liked The Intonation Repair Tool (this one) the best. :)

YMMV

--Andy in OKC
timothy42b
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by timothy42b » Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:18 am

boneagain wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:09 pm
timothy42b wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:59 am
I have been doing the opposite, playing with a drone in equal temperament. It's challenging.
No more major thirds for YOU! :biggrin:
Yeah, that's a potential problem. But what I'm finding is that like most people I'm more likely to be sharp, meaning sharper than ET, which is even worse. I have an embarrassing recording from the last community band concert I've considered sharing, and then reconsidered for that reason.

I'm using a drone on the stereo behind me, with the tuner on a music stand in front of me. I have Breakfast (David Schwarz) as well as a set of cello drones I downloaded. I play each line twice, once only listening and once also looking at the tuner.

Yesterday I took that Breakfast sarabande up an octave. Wow! Those notes are NOT where I've been hearing them. I tried it down an octave too, even worse.
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by AndrewMeronek » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:17 am

timothy42b wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:18 am
But what I'm finding is that like most people I'm more likely to be sharp, meaning sharper than ET, which is even worse. I have an embarrassing recording from the last community band concert I've considered sharing, and then reconsidered for that reason.
Concert bands, when they sound good, use more of a tempered almost-just-intonation than 12ET, as far as my ears have told me.

But, yes, going sharp is definitely a human tendency. It hurts you in major keys because the major thirds are significantly lower than 12ET, but consider that there are times when a higher third may be appropriate: as when you're playing some jazzy chord like a major 6/9 where a spelling in 4ths can force a major third to Pythagorean tuning (+6 cents) instead of 5-limit (-14 cents); or when the harmonic context is much weaker than the melodic context and you want to make a leading tone half-step tighter.

That Pythagorean major third is findable against a drone, but IMHO very difficult.

But, for minor keys, that minor third is already high, so the tendency to play sharp anyway doesn't hurt the harmony as much.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
timothy42b
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by timothy42b » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:07 pm

Interesting. Thanks Andrew. Maybe I will share that recording.

We should be able to play an ET major scale by ear, right?
AndrewMeronek
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by AndrewMeronek » Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:32 pm

timothy42b wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 12:07 pm
We should be able to play an ET major scale by ear, right?
Only to a point. No recording artist actually does this without autotune. And we all know how good that sounds.

IMHO intonation is a musical tool that be pushed, pulled, stretched, etc., just like everything else. It is, of course, still important to have control over intonation just like it's important to have good time.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
harrisonreed
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by harrisonreed » Fri Aug 17, 2018 12:27 pm

I've always wondered how the tubas deal with 5 limit after a few key changes. Especially if they are using pythagorean tuning on a scalar, moving bass line.

Bye bye A440.

Oh wait, they don't do that because just intonation still has to squeeze in somehow over 12tet roots...
Cmillar
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by Cmillar » Sun Aug 19, 2018 7:23 am

Check out these 'Cello Drones':



They come in every different key!

Thanks to the person who made these for us to use....love them.
timothy42b
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by timothy42b » Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:24 am

Yes those are the ones I use now.
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robcat2075
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by robcat2075 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:53 pm

It is disappointing to hear that this is no longer available.
billyball wrote:
Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:52 am

Also, has anyone tried it or had any success with it?

I bought it back when it came out and I found it very "ear-opening". The first time I heard it go up and down the just tuned scale was almost disorienting. :shuffle:

I like that it teaches many different angles to intonation, it's not just a set of drones.

I like the play-along aspect where it challenges you to find a pitch before it reveals it to you.

I particularly like the coverage of how to place the third of a chord. That's not an obvious thing like matching an octave or unison is. I like how the exercise challenges you to place the third inside an open fifth and then adds that third to give you immediate feedback on whether you hit it or not.

I like the booklet that comes with it that explains how this "just" tuning differs from ET and how to use the exercises on the CD.

I dislike that it didn't come out until I was way past any serious intentions for trombone playing and music making in general. I realize now how unskilled my various teachers, some of whom had serious professional performing careers, were at teaching this basic thing.

All any of them could say was something like, "you must learn to use your ear!" :clever: The best of them was no better than the worst of them in this regard. And yet this little IRT book shows that there are many specific things that can be said and quickly demonstrated about intonation to make the task clear and break the task down into its various aspects.

Can you imagine teaching rhythm by just saying "you must learn to use your ear!" Somehow that is the alpha and omega of teaching intonation in most environments.

This could have been an LP 60 years ago. We didn't have to wait for CDs to be invented and then become obsolete before someone put this stuff down in one place.

I hope the authors will find a way to make the IRT available again soon. I see that a used copy is available on Amazon for $533.99 plus shipping.
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn

See my Spacepod movie
Bart
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by Bart » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:56 am

Let's hope it will be available soon again indeed! I didn't know the Intonation Repair Tool existed, but I would really like to buy it and work on my intonation. Not for $533.99 though :pant:
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robcat2075
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by robcat2075 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:17 pm

A few other interesting aspects of IRT...

-They not only don't teach "expressive" intonation, the explicitly preach against it. Practices like raising the third to make a chord brighter or raising the leading tone to make it more leading-y.

-On the other hand they don't accept the very low dominant 7th that most people talk about in just tuning, arguing that it is too consonant for that purpose. They teach one that is just 4 cents lower than an ET minor 7th.

All in all, there's a lot there I will never master but it has gotten me to listen for things I had not been aware of before.
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn

See my Spacepod movie
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robcat2075
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Re: Intonation Repair Tool

Post by robcat2075 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:40 am

I got out my IRT and was doing the D major scale drill.

The naturally low F# in D major against my tendency to always play 5th position too high made for a jarring discrepancy. :horror:

It was so far off, I turned on the "just" tuner to check their F#.

Nope. They're right. I'm wrong. :shuffle:

I attribute this to a lifetime of hearing bad examples. And all the time spent in bands that never played anything in D.
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn

See my Spacepod movie
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