1st trombone bass trombone

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:47 pm

I have a question that I've been pondering around for quite some time. I'm in this Concert Band and I play the first trombone parts, on my bass trombone. Is playing a Bass Trombone for a lead/1st part bad for the band? Should I go to my director and ask him to give me a bass part? My trombone is a Conn 110h.

Thank you and I hope you can help me!

ttf_Burgerbob · Post by **ttf_Burgerbob** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:42 pm

I'm sure you can play the parts, but it won't project or sound the way a tenor will in that range.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:10 pm

Is the bass trombone your personal instrument or one that was assigned to you? If it's a school instrument, see if you can swap for a tenor. If it's your own, you might want to use a smaller mouthpiece like a 3G or 4G to play the parts. It will help make the sound more appropriate. Unless you are part of a very elite band, I would seriously doubt that what kind of horn you are playing will make that much difference; as long as you can play your part in tune and on time.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:47 am

I would say that it is ok to play 1st with a bass trombone, as long as your tone with it is ok. If your instrument is a school instrument, defiantly see if you can switch it for a tenor. I would say that it is best to play 1st with a tenor, but if you have to, playing with a bass should be ok.

Zach

ttf_anonymous · Post by **ttf_anonymous** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:03 am

Quote from: Gigx9810 on Apr 08, 2017, 08:47PMI have a question that I've been pondering around for quite some time. I'm in this Concert Band and I play the first trombone parts, on my bass trombone. Is playing a Bass Trombone for a lead/1st part bad for the band? Should I go to my director and ask him to give me a bass part? My trombone is a Conn 110h.

Thank you and I hope you can help me!

Can a clarinet cover a trumpet part? Can a baritone saxophone cover a bass trombone part? Answer is: Sometimes, and it depends....
Anything goes, but since you are asking: Use the right tool for the job.

/Tom

ttf_JohnL · Post by **ttf_JohnL** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 9:03 am

I see on your profile that you also own a Conn 50H. Assuming the 50H is in good condition and you sound OK on it, I'd suggest trying that for 1st trombone part in a concert band.

That said, you haven't really given us enough information to put this in context. Is this a school band or an adult band? Are you on first because you the best (or at least one of the better) players in the section? Haw many trombonists in the section?

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:19 pm

Quote from: watermailonman on Apr 09, 2017, 09:03AMCan a clarinet cover a trumpet part? Can a baritone saxophone cover a bass trombone part? Answer is: Sometimes, and it depends....
Anything goes, but since you are asking: Use the right tool for the job.

Well-stated, Tom, I meant to say something similar but find quite the right words

ttf_Gigx9810 · Post by **ttf_Gigx9810** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:02 pm

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 08, 2017, 10:10PMIs the bass trombone your personal instrument or one that was assigned to you? If it's a school instrument, see if you can swap for a tenor. If it's your own, you might want to use a smaller mouthpiece like a 3G or 4G to play the parts. It will help make the sound more appropriate. Unless you are part of a very elite band, I would seriously doubt that what kind of horn you are playing will make that much difference; as long as you can play your part in tune and on time.

It is my trombone, and as of right now I play a 1/2 g (Conn).

Thanks for the responses!

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:45 pm

Quote from: Gigx9810 on Apr 09, 2017, 06:02PMIt is my trombone, and as of right now I play a 1/2 g (Conn).

Thanks for the responses!

I have a question:
Why do you own/use a bass trombone, if not to play bass trombone parts?

ttf_JP · Post by **ttf_JP** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:15 am

Many years ago when I was an Army musician at the Armed Forces School of Music at Little Rock, VA (Norfolk). I was "issued" a tenor while waiting for my bass to be shipped. I worked my way up to 2nd chair in the top band, the 1st chair (Navy) was playing 1st parts on a single valve Bach 50B. He was a very good player and had no problem with the first parts. After a few rehearsals I finally asked him why he was playing lead parts on a bass trombone. His reply, "What's a bass trombone?" Turns out at his Arkansas HS the entire trombone section played 50Bs

That being said, I think lead parts just sound more appropriate on tenor.

ttf_crazytrombonist505 · Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:03 am

Quote from: JP on Apr 10, 2017, 09:15AMI think lead parts just sound more appropriate on tenor.

Agreed!

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:11 am

Quote from: JP on Apr 10, 2017, 09:15AMMany years ago when I was an Army musician at the Armed Forces School of Music at Little Rock, VA (Norfolk). I was "issued" a tenor while waiting for my bass to be shipped. I worked my way up to 2nd chair in the top band, the 1st chair (Navy) was playing 1st parts on a single valve Bach 50B. He was a very good player and had no problem with the first parts. After a few rehearsals I finally asked him why he was playing lead parts on a bass trombone. His reply, "What's a bass trombone?" Turns out at his Arkansas HS the entire trombone section played 50Bs

WOW

That' must've sounded pretty big! Wonder what size mpc's they were using. Just imagine the incredibly huge section sound they must've been getting with such large bores if they were using 5Gs and 4Gs!

ttf_Steven · Post by **ttf_Steven** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:11 pm

Quote from: davdud101 on Apr 10, 2017, 11:11AMWOW

That' must've sounded pretty big! Wonder what size mpc's they were using. Just imagine the incredibly huge section sound they must've been getting with such large bores if they were using 5Gs and 4Gs!

or they could have sounded diffuse or barely there. Not every high school player sounds good on big equipment.

ttf_JP · Post by **ttf_JP** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 12:52 pm

Quote from: Steven on Apr 10, 2017, 12:11PMor they could have sounded diffuse or barely there. Not every high school player sounds good on big equipment.
As I remember I think he said the whole section played 1 1/2 Gs (he did). I think he said there was usually upwards of a dozen trombone players. Probably sounded like the sound tracks to Lord of the Rings or Planet of the Apes where they used several bass trombones, contrabass trombones, and cimbassos.

ttf_Steven · Post by **ttf_Steven** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:52 pm

I did recently spend a season playing first trombone in a wind ensemble on my Holton TR183, using a tenor mouthpiece. I don't remember why I made that choice, but I enjoyed it, and we sounded good. I don't do that lately, but enjoy playing the Holton when I can. It's pretty small and nimble for a so-called bass trombone.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 11:49 pm

Quote from: Steven on Apr 10, 2017, 04:52PMI did recently spend a season playing first trombone in a wind ensemble on my Holton TR183, using a tenor mouthpiece. I don't remember why I made that choice, but I enjoyed it, and we sounded good. I don't do that lately, but enjoy playing the Holton when I can. It's pretty small and nimble for a so-called bass trombone.

When I bought my Holton TR-183 from Dillons a couple of years ago it was listed as a tenor, probably by mistake. I knew what it was when I bought it. My double valved Martin bass is a .536 bore. A King 5b is also a .536 if I remember correctly. If you play a small bass it could blend better. I heard an US military band on tour in Sweden in the 80's where all trombones where bass trombones. A huge sound and it worked. As I said it depends if it works or not, but you need to be a strong player, that is for sure, and the rest of the section needs to adopt to the sound, because the other way around does not quite work. If second is on a 2b+ it will be a challenge to make that section blend. The same if 1:st is on large bore and second is on small bore. Could work if second can match with his sound, maybe bigger mouthpiece could help. Players with the same equipment may, and have also often trouble to blend if their sound differ and doesn't blend. Why make it harder. Tenor is for tenor parts and bass is for bass parts. Other choices must be made intentionally. Can be good, acceptable or bad.

/Tom

ttf_svenlarsson · Post by **ttf_svenlarsson** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:51 am

It can sound good in a windensemble with only one trombone to use a bass trombone if you can get a proper sound.
Holton 183 is a very good bass, a 9 inch bell does not make it less bass trombone. I would not play that horn with a tenor mpc thought.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:47 am

Quote from: svenlarsson on Apr 11, 2017, 01:51AMIt can sound good in a windensemble with only one trombone to use a bass trombone if you can get a proper sound.
Holton 183 is a very good bass, a 9 inch bell does not make it less bass trombone. I would not play that horn with a tenor mpc thought.

I think when "weighted" well, any sort of oddly-instrumentated chamber group can sound great. Couple weekends ago, I gummed around on some arrangements with my brother and a friend - I was on small bore, brother on cello and the other guy on soprano sax. It was an awesome sound, and we were able to blend really well!

That said, seems like Tom is still coming through with wisdom.
Quote from: watermailonman on Apr 10, 2017, 11:49PMWhy make it harder. Tenor is for tenor parts and bass is for bass parts. Other choices must be made intentionally. Can be good, acceptable or bad.

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:15 am

I think part of the issue is if all you have is a bass, that's what you play. In lower level ensembles and school ensembles it often won't make much difference since the level of musicianship is low. Clearly you won't play lead in the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra on bass. But the Mudge High School Aardvark Dance Band can use anything that plays.

ttf_watermailonman · Post by **ttf_watermailonman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:35 am

Quote from: BGuttman on Apr 11, 2017, 08:15AMI think part of the issue is if all you have is a bass, that's what you play. In lower level ensembles and school ensembles it often won't make much difference since the level of musicianship is low. Clearly you won't play lead in the Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra on bass. But the Mudge High School Aardvark Dance Band can use anything that plays.

Right, but I think all advice should be "the expert kind of advice". Or else anything goes, and then why ask? That said, I do understand your point too Bruce.

/Tom

ttf_BGuttman · Post by **ttf_BGuttman** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:29 am

Quote from: watermailonman on Apr 11, 2017, 08:35AMRight, but I think all advice should be "the expert kind of advice". Or else anything goes, and then why ask? That said, I do understand your point too Bruce.

/Tom
On the other hand, if the questioner is a kid or a person of limited means trying to play mostly for fun, my answer fits.

If you want to be a pro, you have to get the right equipment.

ttf_boneagain · Post by **ttf_boneagain** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:08 am

Quote from: JP on Apr 10, 2017, 09:15AMMany years ago when I was an Army musician at the Armed Forces School of Music at Little Rock, VA (Norfolk). I was "issued" a tenor while waiting for my bass to be shipped. I worked my way up to 2nd chair in the top band, the 1st chair (Navy) was playing 1st parts on a single valve Bach 50B. He was a very good player and had no problem with the first parts. After a few rehearsals I finally asked him why he was playing lead parts on a bass trombone. His reply, "What's a bass trombone?" Turns out at his Arkansas HS the entire trombone section played 50Bs

That being said, I think lead parts just sound more appropriate on tenor.

In my Navy time at that school (Little Creek) they took away my personal bass, gave me a tenor until they needed a bass for the "unit band" they were sending out next. Then they gave me a Conn 72h. But when they decided they needed me on lead more than bass, they gave me a King 3B Silversonic. I never saw them spend any more money than they had to on our fleet bands, so I guess they figured SOMEthing out about bore size and part played.

ttf_Tim Dowling · Post by **ttf_Tim Dowling** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:47 am

I want to come at this from the opposite end of the row. I play in a decent community band that performs at retirement communities every week. I play bass trombone. The gentleman beside me plays the same part as I do (3rd, bass, whatever) on his .525 Yamaha straight horn. The blend is weird. If it's weird at the bottom of the section, it'll be weird at the top of the section too.

ttf_LowrBrass · Post by **ttf_LowrBrass** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:04 pm

To those who say "if all you have is a bass, then sure, for an amateur/high school band, a bass is fine," I agree.

But OP's profile says that he/she plays tenors!

So if you don't have a choice,
or if you or your conductor have a specific sound-vision that calls for tenor parts to be played on bass trombones,
or if you have some other justification...
then yes, go for it!
But otherwise... why??

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:45 pm

Quote from: LowrBrass on Apr 11, 2017, 05:04PMTo those who say "if all you have is a bass, then sure, for an amateur/high school band, a bass is fine," I agree.

But OP's profile says that he/she plays tenors!

So if you don't have a choice,
or if you or your conductor have a specific sound-vision that calls for tenor parts to be played on bass trombones,
or if you have some other justification...
then yes, go for it!
But otherwise... why??

I'd certainly love to hear the blend of a sections that went from darkest on top to brightest at the bottom. Probably sounds terrible.

ttf_davdud101 · Post by **ttf_davdud101** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:45 pm

Quote from: LowrBrass on Apr 11, 2017, 05:04PMTo those who say "if all you have is a bass, then sure, for an amateur/high school band, a bass is fine," I agree.

But OP's profile says that he/she plays tenors!

So if you don't have a choice,
or if you or your conductor have a specific sound-vision that calls for tenor parts to be played on bass trombones,
or if you have some other justification...
then yes, go for it!
But otherwise... why??

I'd certainly love to hear the blend of a sections that went from darkest on top to brightest at the bottom. Probably sounds terrible.