Is this a vintage NOS King 4B 3-Piston Valve Section?

[bbadgerd]

Have you ever seen one of these? Don't currently have a 4b bell to check. A King 3b bell is way to small to attach. Please share your thoughts. Thanks in advance for any information.

From what I read, King made only a small batch of these in the late 70's to early 80's. Total production quantities of 100 to 200 units. This one is from 1984 based on serial #, so I'm assuming a special order.

Vintage NOS King 4B (.547") 3-Piston Valve Section Only
Serial Number: 948894
1984 Production, Eastlake, OH
Condition: Mint / New Old Stock (NOS)
fits King 4B / Model 2104 bell receivers.

[Finetales]

New dream horn unlocked.

[jcdoubleu77]

Wow. Where did you find this?

[bbadgerd]

This came from Minnesota along with another NOS Olds Valve Section an case.

Check out my other post from today labeled,
Just received my NOS 1956 Olds Valve Section and case

[hornbuilder]

It doesn't look like a King item. Looks like the valve section in your other post...

[bbadgerd]

Hello Matthew,
If you had to pick, who would you say is the manufacturer of this valve section?

[NotSkilledHere]

it's an Olds valve section more than likely

The valve caps match that of Olds valve trombones. not all Olds valve sections were explicitly engraved with "Olds" on it. but the valve caps and wrap pattern and ferrule placements match.

[Kingfan]

it's an Olds valve section more than likely

The valve caps match that of Olds valve trombones. not all Olds valve sections were explicitly engraved with "Olds" on it. but the valve caps and wrap pattern and ferrule placements match.

I agree. The tenon nut doesn't look like a King piece either.

[bbadgerd]

Thanks all who commented. I believe it is an Olds Valve section also. Wondering if this piece could have been made for the Opera Premier or Fanfare?

[JohnL]

I'm late to the party; y'all have already done most of the work (i.e., identifying it as an Olds valve section); all I can do is fill in a few details.

Thanks all who commented. I believe it is an Olds Valve section also. Wondering if this piece could have been made for the Opera Premier or Fanfare?

Doubtful. Operas (including the O-25) have their tenon nut on the bell section.

I dug out my Olds valve section (s/n 743xxx) and took some measurements:

ID at tenon: .510" (12.95 mm)
OD at tenon ring (same location as your sixth picture): .735" (18.7 mm)

I obviously can't get a real measurement on the OD of the tenon (what with it being tapered), but I used a micrometer as a go/no-go gauge for the small end. It's a clear "go" at .575" (14.61 mm), on the edge of a "go" at .570" (14.48 mm), barely a "no-go" at .565" (14.35 mm), and a clear "no-go" at .560" (14.22 mm).

Just for the sake of comparison, I dug out an O-25 slide (s/n 943xx) and did the same go/no-go on it. It's a clear "go" at .635" (16.13 mm), on the edge of a "go" at .630" (16.00 mm), barely a "no-go" at .625" (15.88 mm), and a clear "no-go" at .620" (15.75 mm). As you'd expect, the O-20 valve section tenon just rattles around in the O-25 receiver, and the O-25 slide section tenon is pretty much a "no-go" in receiver that properly fits the O-20 tenon.

[bbadgerd]

Thanks JohnL for your pulling pieces,measuring and reporting this information! Being an Olds valve section from 1975 or early 1976 (serial # 948894), what horn was this made to pair with?

[JohnL]

Thanks JohnL for your pulling pieces,measuring and reporting this information! Being an Olds valve section from 1975 or early 1976 (serial # 948894), what horn was this made to pair with?

Basically any post-WWII (say, S/N 16,xxx and up) Olds small bore tenor made in Los Angeles or Fullerton. Recording, Super, Studio, Special, Ambassador, Super Star, Standard, Custom.

If the bell has a tenon nut on it, it won't work.

[NotSkilledHere]

most of the small bore post ww2 horns should mate up to it provided the receiver/tenon nut is not present on the bell side as JohnL said.

I think these valve sections didn't inherently come on any horn with a given name. if anything, might have just been like Standard or something. I think the Olds valve model that comes to mind went under the O-20 catalog number.

If I'm not wrong and not misremembering your other post, these should more or less be the same valve sections.

FWIW I looked up the serial and for Olds, this is roughly late 1975/early 1976 for this.

[Doug Elliott]

With that groove on the tenon I'd wonder if it had been modified to fit something else

[FullPedalTrombonist]

With that groove on the tenon I'd wonder if it had been modified to fit something else

A lot of the Olds that passed through my hands had that. I wonder what it’s actually for

[elmsandr]

Grooves and undercuts are very common on machine locking tapers. Gives grease and grime a place to go and still give you good metal to metal surface contact.

Cheers,
Andy