Getting more comfortable on alto?

[MStarke]

Always to a degree struggling with alto, never really feeling comfortable or enjoying it as much as playing larger trombones...

What is your approach to getting more comfortable on alto?
Long tones, Bordognis, scales?
Or simply lots of playing?

(Explicitly NOT interested in equipment aspects!)

[Matt K]

Or simply lots of playing?

Pretty much what I do. Takes a lot of work because I'm basically never called to actually play it. If I use it, it's basically because I've chosen to use it for something. I do lots of drones with it too for intonation.

For what it's worth too, I know you didn't want to talk about equipment, but if you have a fantastic tenor and/or bass and not so much on the alto, it's probably not going to feel as nice or as comfortable. Being a smaller instrument and one that often doesn't have a usable 7th position, intonation can be very tricky to get right. It's much more sensitive to motion because every unit of distance you move the slide is much more of the total overall length of the instrument.

[Finetales]

Drones!!

[MStarke]

Both good points.

I would actually have more opportunities to play alto if I wanted to. But I tend to turn down some orchestra requests because I don't like all the waiting too much...
In the end I typically have max 3 different programs to play on alto per year. So I would basically have to force myself to practice it also when I don't really need it.

And shortly on the equipment. The 35h that I have is imo a really nice instrument (though a bit tricky with intonation). I am pretty sure that is not what is limiting me.

I do make good progress when I practice alto regularly - surprise, surprise - but it never feels natural to me.

[sterb225]

Changing mouthpieces on both horns made a massive difference at the start of last season, making sound production way more automatic/natural on alto, freeing up my brain to focus on pitch and technique.

I'm always moderately uncomfortable when I have to bring it out for an orchestra program and warm up to it after a few weeks of regular playing. Personally, I didn't start playing alto until my 40s and am missing the thousands of hours of practice needed for true mastery, but that doesn't mean I can't do a good job on an orchestral program with careful prep.

[Doug Elliott]

Improvise and play things by ear instead of reading. Arpeggios too but not scales Always remember where you are and what note you're playing. That tremendously helped me to get to the point where Eb positions felt natural.

I say not scales because it's too easy to use Bb reflexes and not really learn the Eb notes and positions. Let the new Eb reflexes come from knowing where you are.

[MStarke]

Drones is certainly a good point. Although generally I am confident that intonation is not a core issue for me, I think this can help getting the right core/focus.

And Doug, thanks for the input reg scales vs. arpeggios. Certainly true. Much of my alto playing is sort of brainless "playing the same stuff as on tenor", using the same slide movements, of course scaled down to the shorter slide. This does make some frequent patterns pretty automatic, but still limits sight-reading and getting really acquainted to the alto.

[Retrobone]

An idea Markus... perhaps you do it already.
As well as scales, slurs etc, practice some alto literature. Albrechtsberger, Wagonwheels, L. Mozart. Do you have them?
They're fun to play! And I like Doug's idea as well.

[MStarke]

Tim! Always great to hear from you.

Yes, I have at least two of them (always mixing the names up and Wagonwheels is a nice variation ).
Good idea, I should probably use them more. A friend also suggested Mozart horn concertos, but for my purposes it's more practical to play something that's actually in alto clef.
That literature can at least bring some fun into alto playing.

Is there actually a Bordogni edition for alto trombone? Playing the originals in alto clef gets a bit tiring too soon...

[timothy42b]

I think doing anything with tenor positions slows your progress.

Slow sight reading with a metronome should help, especially if you are reading in concert pitch.

[MStarke]

Agreed generally. For me personally I can certainly improve my sightreading on alto, but that's not my key aspect of getting more comfortable. I am thinking more of getting a good playing "feel", more consistently good response and sound. And it is not like I am a beginner on alto, it is just not at the same level of comfort and maybe confidence as small tenor to bass are feeling for me.

[harrisonreed]

I am thinking more of getting a good playing "feel", more consistently good response and sound.

I know you don't want equipment suggestions .... But using a true alto mouthpiece designed for an Eb instrument is like night and day in terms of playing "feel", vs. using a mouthpiece designed for small tenor.

To the point where it's the difference between playing an instrument that feels alien vs an instrument that feels like home. Intonation and blow resistance can be vastly improved.

Finding this difference has nothing to do with practicing, unfortunately -- I practiced like crazy on alto when I was studying and it never got more comfortable until I swapped out the 7C. Finding a good mouthpiece designed for an Eb instrument instantaneously opened up a whole new world on the instrument with zero effort on my part. There is a reason why serious trumpeters use correct mouthpieces tuned for C, or Eb , or piccolo trumpet for professional playing. The difference is *vast*.

I am not sure what you are currently using, so this may not even be an issue at all.

My other suggestion I was going to give to improve intonation had to do with playing longer on the slide and not relying on the tuning slide, but your alto is TIS, right? So that is probably also not needed.

Again, I know this isn't what you wanted. But you are an accomplished trombonist. With the right setup, the alto should not actually feel vastly different from tenor. Intonation issues caused by Bb mouthpieces and pulling the bell tuning compound and the end state is that the alto intonation is never something that seems to be solidified for a lot of great tenor players.

[MStarke]

Harrison, appreciate your points as well - even if you are going into equipment questions.

I wouldn't really consider intonation questions too much. While the 35h probably isn't the mos straightforward reg intonation, this is really something I simply need to practice. And yes, it's TIS, so that may actually be a good thing for intonation, not sure.

I have tried quite a lot of different mouthpieces on alto, incl somewhat dedicated alto models and probably have not yet found the holy grail for alto yet. I really don't want to blaim this on equipment though, but will dm you with a question.

[Doug Elliott]

One or two more things.
Read music in treble, alto, tenor, and bass clefs. And as I said before, improvise and play things by ear. It all helps to keep your brain engaged so nothing is automatic, until it becomes automatic from familiarity.

[CalgaryTbone]

I really like the Alto Trombone Arbans that you can buy from CherryClassics. There's something very "grounding" about practicing the familiar passages that encourage clean technique, and even sound. I also felt like it really helped dial-in my reading on the alto (in alto clef, which is how the books are written). After using it for a while, I felt more like the alto was more of a second home base.

Jim Scott

[MStarke]

Jim, thanks for the recommendation!
Until now I have avoided Arbans most of my trombone life, both my brothers played them a lot on trumpet when were younger and I think I just couldn't stand even playing that stuff myself.

But definitely something to consider!

BTW: Big thanks to everyone here. This is very helpful input and for sure gives me lots to consider and work on. I was a bit hesitant to create this actual threat, but really appreciate what is shared here.

[CalgaryTbone]

You're welcome! By the way, the Alto Arbans may work better in this manner if you're familiar with Arbans as a Tenor trombone method. For me, the familiar slide patterns were what made it increase my comfort level on the alto. There's often a hesitation with slide placement while you're still getting comfortable on alto (or haven't played it for a while). The familiarity helped quicken the eye to brain to hand coordination. It doesn't do much for other clefs, but I think that just adding on materials in those clefs to practice will solve that.

Jim Scott

[hyperbolica]

I bought a pbone mini (blue) because I've been ashamed that I was kind of afraid of alto, so I got something I could play without taking it too seriously. I've kind of followed Doug's advice, even though I don't have nearly the alto chops that anyone else in this discussion has. I'm just learning to play it by ear, without all the deliberate exercises that I learned on tenor.

I don't have perfect pitch, but I can tell the difference between a Bb and an Eb. Trying to just play using the same but shorter positions would just weird my ear out. Reading music on alto doesn't seem to be a good idea right now. I didn't pick up Eb tuba as quickly as I had hoped previously, don't what that to happen again.

Following other DE advice, I think just fiddling with the alto as opposed to earnestly studying it might be my gateway to get better at improv. Fiddling with playing by ear and chord tones seems like a great way to ease into something that might sound like improv at some point. Thanks to Doug for advice I can really implement.