“Progressive Overload” as a brass method?

[NuhJuhKuh]

Howdy,

Short version of my current musing: do you think that the health & fitness concept of “progressive overload” could work for improving facility on brass instruments? Does a method for this approach already exist?

Right, context!

You know the phrase “the best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago, but the second best time is now?” Well, I wish I’d stuck with strength training when I first dabbled with it in college, because now I’m in my 40s I know it to be the form of exercise that suits me best, the one I am most likely to stick to as I get older. I enjoy the resistance aspect of it, the in-built HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) from moving heavy weights for short bursts of time, and I love tracking my progression too. I won’t post numbers here unless someone asks (they’re not especially impressive anyway, I’m very much an amateur still!), but suffice to say I can now squat, bench and deadlift weights I would never have thought possible two years ago.

That’s down to the principal of “progressive overload”. Essentially two years ago I started each exercise with an empty barbell, performed the proscribed amount of sets and repetitions for each workout with the correct form, then incrementally added weight each workout until I couldn’t complete all the sets and reps. At which point I would keep the same weight for the next workout, hopefully adding more reps at least, until I could complete the exercise and move on to the next weight. If I failed to complete the exercise three workouts in a row, I would “deload” by 10% and work back up. All this is tracked and calculated with an app (what isn’t these days!). The same principle applies to other exercises too - think about “couch to 5K” for example.

Anyway, while I’m happy with my current strength/fitness trajectory… I’m flailing somewhat with trombone and I’m just wondering if I need something similar to “progressive overload” for trombone to improve my range, breath control, stamina etc. Playing brass is very physical, so I reckon it makes sense to apply *some health and fitness practices to our practice, or am I conflating two very different things?

On the other hand, is this already common knowledge? Is this actually how brass is taught, just with different language?

Going to stop now while I think about how I would turn this into a method book or even an app… in the meantime, please discuss!

Cheers,
Neil

[Burgerbob]

The big muscles we use to stand up and move our limbs respond to this method very well- it's obviously a proven way to get gainz.

I don't think the way we play is necessarily similar, though. Obviously we use muscles to hold up the horn and breathe and form an embouchure. But you can't "abuse" the little muscles in the face the same way you can with your quads or biceps, where if you stay in the lines of your connective tissue and eat enough protein, you can kind of go nuts.

Playing well is all about finding the least energetic way to make a beautiful noise.

[NuhJuhKuh]

Hi Aidan, thanks for your response.

I was thinking more in terms of the principal rather than physiology, tracking gradual progress while maintaining good form rather than “training to failure” every practice session or “maintaining gains” (to borrow more gym rat terms!).

So an example for building range: first establish your current base level - maybe you can slur up to 5th partial consistently with a good tone. For the first “workout”, aim to slur up to the 6th partial with good tone five times in a row, say three times. Once you hit that, aim to slur up to the seventh partial five times with good tone five times in a row etc. If you can’t hit all yer reps, try again next practice session.

Hmm, I should maybe actually do some practicing now …

[Burgerbob]

That does make a bit more sense- though of course judging these things isn't so cut and dry as failing a rep.

[Doug Elliott]

progress while maintaining good form

As you know from weight training, good form is the real key to consistent progress without injuring yourself.
It's very possible to get strong in the wrong way using bad form.

It's the same way with brass playing. It's possible, and pretty common, to get really good using bad form that may seem fine but won't last indefinitely.

"Training to failure" using the wrong approach is inviting problems.

[Kbiggs]

I think the idea of “progressive overload” can be used for some specific skills, like triple and double tonguing, and maybe for developing range.

I think that proper form is more important, though. I devote some time to “reflective practice” where I consciously focus on different body parts or systems. I ask whether my embouchure is working correctly and efficiently? What about my breathing? Articulation? Posture? Is my left hand/arm holding the weight of the horn? Is my right hand/arm holding the slide tight enough to prevent it from slipping but loosely enough to be quick and flexible?

With all of these (and other) skills needed to play the horn well, it’s very easy to allow something to slip a little, to develop an “easier” (lazier?) but less efficient way of doing things.

[Gfunk]

There’s something to be learned from everything.

You can train for strength like you do in the gym, but what we as trombonist is much more skill based than muscular. The development of skill will spur muscular development as long as the proper building blocks are in place. The two must complement each other, not be separate. Though you can (should) sometimes focus just on musculature in small doses with specific goals.

Looking towards the psychology of learning ends up being more enlightening than specifically muscle training IMO. Though I fully agree with the above statements about importance of form.

[Wayne]

The progressive overload (except for the actual overload part, as in “failing a rep”) principle probably applies best to technique. Most musicians who’ve practiced would be familiar with playing a technical passage with a metronome set at a no fail speed and, over time, moving that speed closer and closer to the performance tempo target.

For other aspects of playing like range and volume while there is a strength component in performance application the trained ability is muscular endurance under repeated, less than maximal, loads. For that my intuition is we would be better off to look at CrossFit training than lifting aimed at building power or lifting aimed at building hypertrophy. A brass player needs to be able to consistently and consecutively perform dynamic yet precise actions. For me that’s much more like an American Ninja Warrior than a powerlifter or a bodybuilder.

[Burgerbob]

CrossFit is one of the last things I would want to associate with my trombone playing haha.

[Doug Elliott]

One thing to remember is that there's a huge difference between how you should build ability at different starting levels, and how you should maintain a level, and knowing when enough is enough. In playing, you can injure yourself in a variety of ways, and some are not obvious at all.

[harrisonreed]

Specifically for "strength training" in brass, there is the so called "warm-up from hell". You can find references to it if you look hard enough.

I don't think it's a good idea. It's all a fine motor skill -- you need accurate repetition and sleep to build it.

[Wayne]

CrossFit is one of the last things I would want to associate with my trombone playing haha.

I get that you’re being playful. This is also a playful comment. I’ve been to Disney World and watched the Main Street Philharmonic enough times to believe that certain playing demands absolutely resemble cross fit.

[JTeagarden]

I think the most analogous sport to playing a brass instrument is figure-skating: It's about things being in balance, elements coordinated properly and in the right proportions at any given speed/level of difficulty: You don't see jacked figure skaters, and at least I don't think working out "to failure" is a technique skaters would ever embrace.

[timothy42b]

I don't think it's a good idea. It's all a fine motor skill -- you need accurate repetition and sleep to build it.

Even some seemingly pure strength movements have more skill than we think.

Pavel advocates "greasing the groove" for chinups. He says it's more neurological than we think. You do many submaximal sets per day, like 10 or 20, never going to failure.

If you can't do one, then you start with these 12 skill exercises, also based on neurological skills:

[harrisonreed]

Just looking at that picture, that guy can do more than one.

[Bassbone11]

maybe the closest thing I have seen to progressive overload training is what Jason Sulliman does. tldr: intense long tones and tracking how easy they are every day over various notes. the idea is that you target combinations of specific notes with progressively longer long tones (a higher % of time on the face over an X second period) on those notes to get stronger/more efficient on those specific notes, eventually touching every note in your range. he also applies that concept to other things like articulations, lip slurs, etc. to help improve your playing in a very targeted way like a personal trainer would. I was doing it for a while last summer but its definitely not cheap. jasonsulliman.com if its something you want to look into. his instagram might give you more insight into what his method looks like too.