Custom Bass Wrap?

[Chazzer69]

I ran across this recently and am curious if anyone has ever seen this type of custom job on a bass. Would also welcome any speculation on what impact this style might have on airflow, resistance, response, etc. I believe this might be on some flavor of a 50B.

Thanks

Untitled design.png

[Burgerbob]

The main point of that particular wrap was to put the valves in G/E.

[MahlerMusic]

I think the main priorities were probably pretty simple:
1. Make a cool-looking F/G wrap
2. Keep it compact and avoid having it stick way out the back
3. Possibly allow for a pull to E/Gb
4. And, most importantly, make it look cool!

As for the speculation about airflow, resistance, response, etc., my takeaway is that players tend to adapt to whatever they’re playing. Unless you’re comparing two setups that are truly identical aside from the neckpipe and valves, I’m not sure you can draw many useful conclusions from the wrap alone.
Most custom builds end up with custom leadpipes, tuning slide adjustments, or other tweaks anyway, so a lot of the final airflow/resistance/response is going to be dialed in to suit the player rather than determined purely by the visual style of the wrap.

[Chazzer69]

The main point of that particular wrap was to put the valves in G/E.

Thanks!! Most helpful.

[JohnL]

The main point of that particular wrap was to put the valves in G/E.

The thumb valve looks like an F to me.

Apologies for my terrible graphics skills, but here's an image with the thumb valve wrap traced in red:

ChazzerWrap.jpg

That looks about right to be an F wrap; kinda like pre-WWII Williams flat wrap, but spread out a bit.

The second valve is a little harder to judge, but it looks a bit too long to be G, particularly with that 180 crook in the loop.

[NotSkilledHere]

If im not wrong, either a 50B3 with the same exact wrap or this very horn was sold by The Instrument Barn last year. I remember seeing one with that very wrap on that site. it wasn't a very expensive horn either on there if i remember correctly.

[Finetales]

The main point of that particular wrap was to put the valves in G/E.

The thumb valve looks like an F to me.

It is G/E/D. This was originally built for Sesquitone, perhaps he will chime in.

[Sesquitone]

It is G/E/D. This was originally built for Sesquitone, perhaps he will chime in.

Yes, indeed, this is my design. The (downstream) thumb-trigger-actuated valve is in G-natural (of course)—to be compatible with all my other (single) minor-third thumb-valve instruments: Eb/C alto, C/A tenor, Bb/G tenors (in a variety of bore sizes). All with matched-bores between slide and valve/wrap/gooseneck. The additional finger-trigger-actuated valve is designed so that the double-valve combination is a perfectly-in-tune D (natural). This requires the (upstream) valve to be tuned in a 19.7¢ sharp E (natural).

This particular customisation of a Bach 50 with a large (267 mm) bell was performed at Bob Giardinelli's famous shop in New York by lead technician Jack Onqué in 1982. Jack had built my original Bb/G+E=D demonstration prototype a decade earlier. Originally designed (on paper) in 1962, that "proof-of-concept" had to wait until 1972 when Jack converted my old Conn 88H into a dual inline valve tenor with that tuning and the same wrap design. Jack helped me with the detailed design of the geometry of the independent finger-trigger linkage (which, along with the "inline" idea, was a relatively unknown quantity in those days). Unfortunately, the Conn was stolen in 1981 (and, because of its "unusual" tuning, probably ended up a "decoration" nailed up behind the bar of some dive in NYC). Thus the "need" for the Bach bass replacement.

When the beautiful Willson trombones came on the market, with their superb Rotax valves and lightning-fast titanium-nitride coated slides, in the early 1990s, I had the medium- and large-bore tenors converted to Bb/G and the bass converted to Bb/G+E=D, again using that 19.7¢ sharp E valve, and that same "open-but-compact" wrap geometry. Those conversions were done by Pete Lavictoire in Akron, OH. Since I had no further need for the Bach bass, I donated it to The Cleveland Women's Symphony Orchestra. [What happened to it after that, I have no idea. I was quite surprised when it turned up "for sale" (at a rather large asking figure) recently—as brought to my attention by Finetales.]

Finetales now owns all those Willson instruments. Perhaps she can add a picture of that more recent evolution of my dual inline wrap design on the bass.


PS The photo shows all tuning slides pulled out much further than what they were designed for—perhaps the owner was trying to retune towards F and a G-"half flat" (Bollinger style). But the tuning slides on the E wrap would not be long enough for that; and, of course, the G wrap is constrained by the bell bow. Also note my preference for lack of (unnecessary) cross bracing: there is plenty of mechanical stability in this design (even with all tuning-slides removed).

[hyperbolica]

Wow, very interesting. I really like the idea of removing bracing and cleaning up the wrap. It demonstrates a lot of commitment to the concept. You might have added TIS to it and removed the bell tuning slide.

The idea of this wrap on an 88h is intriguing. 88h is versatile in that it can be used with 525, 547 and 562 slides, adding the versatility of inline valves. That would be a nice bell section to own, too bad about it's fate.

I don't personally use the G valve idea, but I can see that when thought out properly, it can be a real advantage. Thanks for your write up.

[sf105]

I don't personally use the G valve idea, but I can see that when thought out properly, it can be a real advantage. Thanks for your write up.

interesting thread.

I tried a Bb/G/E inline combination for a while. I could go from low C chromatically upwards barely moving the slide from 4th, but I gave it up as too confusing (also, maybe that's just a valve trombone?). There were so many combinations and I didn't have the consistency to change my other horns from Bb/F.

[hyperbolica]

I tried a Bb/G/E inline combination for a while. I could go from low C chromatically upwards barely moving the slide from 4th, but I gave it up as too confusing (also, maybe that's just a valve trombone?). There were so many combinations and I didn't have the consistency to change my other horns from Bb/F.

Yeah, I can see making the shift from F/Gb would be confusing. Some of it would be the same (double valve combos) but a lot of it would be slightly different. It might also depend on what key the music is in as to how easy it is to play. Still, I think if someone started from scratch or committed to G/E across the board, it would be a very useful tuning. If you had to switch, maybe less useful, at least for me, it's hard to shift gears like that. I can pull my F valve to E for a tune or two, but on a more consistent basis, it might be rough.

[Sesquitone]

I tried a Bb/G/E inline combination for a while. I could go from low C chromatically upwards barely moving the slide from 4th, but I gave it up as too confusing (also, maybe that's just a valve trombone?). There were so many combinations and I didn't have the consistency to change my other horns from Bb/F.

A slide trombone with two (dependent or independent) valves is fundamentally different from a "valve trombone". With the latter, you can play seven sequential notes of the chromatic scale on the SAME harmonic simply by pressing various combinations of three valves: "valve articulation". With the former, the valves provide additional harmonics that INTERLEAVE between the harmonics of the base instrument in the lower register where there are large-interval gaps between natural harmonics. This makes that low register "look" a lot like the upper register where the natural harmonics are separated by thirds and seconds, allowing you to play both ALONG a single harmonic (with appropriate articulation) and BETWEEN different harmonics (which allows for different articulations, including lip slurs) over a much larger range: increasing the number of "alternate position" choices.

In this sense, the Bb/G+E=D combination is no different from common independent tunings such as Bb/F+G=(b)Eb and Bb/F+Gb=D. The comparisons are shown below using ETSP Charts: Equitempered Tones (vertical axis) versus Slide Positions (horizontal axis). In each case, slide-alone tones are represented by black dots, thumb-trigger tones by open circles, finger-trigger tones by "stars", and double-trigger tones by "cartwheels" ("stars" within circles). The red shading is bounded by a chromatic scale using shortest available slide positions; the blue shading is bounded by a chromatic scale using longest positions. So the "unshaded" portion for any given tone gives a "measure" (at a glance) of the number of available alternate positions.

Comparing the charts, you can see how the minor-third tuning offers wider unshaded regions down to F2, compared with the major-third tuning. But the "flat Eb" double-trigger tuning requires significantly longer positions in the very low register compared with the D tuning. You can also see (at a a glance) how the F and Gb valves (the most common inline combination) are really "too close together" to give optimum INTERLEAVING of harmonics in this critical low register.

The Bb/G+E=D combination takes the best of both of the other tunings: the single-trigger G tuning in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register (more-or-less across the bass clef), and the double-trigger D tuning in the very low register. By the way, the E tuning is very easy to learn because (by design) D2 with the E-valve lines up at exactly the same position as D3 in slide-alone 4th position: a good "anchor" for E-valve positions.





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[Sesquitone]

It is G/E/D. This was originally built for Sesquitone, perhaps he will chime in.

Here's the Willson bass, previously mentioned, with a more "streamlined" version of my "open-but-compact" wrap. Again, this was customised by Pete Lavictoire—using 14.3 mm tubing for both attachments to match the original equipment (titanium-nitride coated) inside slide (the fastest side I ever encountered). This picture is taken from "All the Brass Instruments I've Ever Owned"—a large compendium by Tiffany Johns, with comments based on direct experience. Both valves are "quasi-CAIDEX": original bass Rotax rotors and casings, with CAIDEX see-through end-caps and individually adjustable stops.

By the way, with the "two-looped" upstream-valve wrap, this can easily be extended (with separate longer crooks) to Eb (8¢ sharp). This puts the double-trigger combination in Db. So we have: Bb/G+Eb=Db. This is a transposition (up a P4) of the European tuning of an F contra, F/D+Bb=Ab. So anyone comfortable with this contra tuning can immediately switch to Bb/G+Eb=Db. My dream "real bass" would be tuned G/E+C=Bb; it has a slide that's about the same length as that of a Bb tenor, so the bell is that much longer (so the two loops of the C wrap more-or-less align with the bell bow).


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