Under appreciated

[Bach5G]

I saw an FB post that vanished almost instantly but I quickly read a gentleman’s opinion that three under-appreciated, indeed mostly forgotten, trombones are the Holton TR-100, the Olds P something, and the Martin 45##.

Was the Martin model always the Urbie? Was there a predecessor?

What was the Olds model in relation to the Ambassador etc lineup? Our new bass trombonist is playing an Olds double trigger bass. Sounds, looks fine.

I thought the Holton was a student horn. Someone local is selling a Holton TR-3##. Never heard of it. Worth a look?

[RJMason]

“Modern” Martin had a predecessor to the Urbie and also had the Dave Steinmeyer model. Different bell sizes and straight braces instead of curved? Both made for very short times, the Urbie lasted the longest and is most seen in slightly different variants (bell diameter, rubber slide crook cover).

The Olds is the P-16, one of if not the last model, designed by the company before it folded. Top of the line custom crafted trombone. Apparently Burt Herrick of LA leadpipe making fame was involved in its design, which was a departure from almost all previous Olds designs (more of what we’d expect from a horn today, round tubes, very little alloy mix) to appeal to a wider pro trombone market. A mostly all yellow brass .500 bore 7.5 bell lightweight design (though not as a light as an Urbie).

The TR-100 was a pro horn with a red brass bell, don’t come up often. The TR-3 something is probably a collegiate which is a student model trombone.

Personally I’ve always wanted to try these horns and give em a run. Some folx speak to the quality of horns suffering in the 70s (with many examples to back that up) compared to the big band heyday of experimentation but there were some hip things happening. Really cool designs but ultimately not widely accepted, hence why they weren’t made for very long.

[JohnL]

I saw an FB post that vanished almost instantly but I quickly read a gentleman’s opinion that three under-appreciated, indeed mostly forgotten, trombones are the Holton TR-100, the Olds P something, and the Martin 45##.

That sounds kinda like something Ron Zeilinger would write. He's on the forum on a fairly regular basis.

[Aznguyy]

“Modern” Martin had a predecessor to the Urbie and also had the Dave Steinmeyer model. Different bell sizes and straight braces instead of curved? Both made for very short times, the Urbie lasted the longest and is most seen in slightly different variants (bell diameter, rubber slide crook cover).

That should be the Martin Committee and Martin Imperial. Both were 7inch bells and .485 bore size(at least the first generation. I was told they switched it up a lot with the specs…). I have a 1969 Committee with the square braces and boy does this horn play! Think a slightly tighter feeling King 2B but with a bigger sound core and projection. I very much enjoy using this horn when I play lead. The bell section is also made of all yellow brass(Ray, think Yamaha 895EN, the butter horn…) and the whole horn is heavier than it looks so that might explain the extra core in the sound. My 1950 Imperial on the other hand is a lot lighter and feels more true to a King 2B feel and sound without the 2B slotting. Both have their personalities.

[Briande]

It was definitely from Ron Z. (Aka Ron’z Garage) here is a link to the video on YouTube:

[Bach5G]

It was definitely from Ron Z. (Aka Ron’z Garage) here is a link to the video on YouTube:

That’s what I saw.

He also mentioned a Martin 4510, the Steinmayer model. I’ve never heard of it. What was it all about?

[JohnL]

The Olds is the P-16, one of if not the last model, designed by the company before it folded. Top of the line custom crafted trombone. Apparently Burt Herrick of LA leadpipe making fame was involved in its design, which was a departure from almost all previous Olds designs (more of what we’d expect from a horn today, round tubes, very little alloy mix) to appeal to a wider pro trombone market. A mostly all yellow brass .500 bore 7.5 bell lightweight design (though not as a light as an Urbie).

As someone who really likes the Olds aesthetic, I've never really developed much affection for the P-16. There's just not enough Olds there. That said, it's my "go-to" if I need to blend with non-Olds small bore tenors.

[RJMason]

Would imagine the P-16 being neither here nor there, just the last attempts of a company to stay relevant. Sure it’s quality but I tend to agree hence why I never purchased one for real. I’d love an R20 for cheap personally.

Back to Martin: yes I of course know of the acclaimed vintage Martin horns, which came in multiple sizes. I’ve seen committees from 7inch -8 inch sizes, 4.85-.525. Imperial Handcrafts come slightly before, also stellar horns. Glad you are enjoying them!!! that’s why I wrote “modern” in referring to the horns originally in question, because they aren’t actually modern anymore, but were newer designs under the Martin badge after being acquired by the LeBlanc company (same as Holton) in the 70s.

The Steinmeyer model has a slightly smaller bell than the Urbie? But then they made Urbies with smaller bells? I dunno if the slide changed at all. Never played an official one, just urbies of different vintages. I love the Urbie but not enough to buy one.

[rzeilinger]

"The Steinmeyer model has a slightly smaller bell than the Urbie? But then they made Urbies with smaller bells? I dunno if the slide changed at all."

Dave S mentioned to me his model had removeable lead pipes, fixed the balance issue (the urbie was front heavy) I think the bell circumference was still a tad under 8", I don't recall if they re-wrapped the horn so all 7 positions were present. Not many were made, Dave said Conn/Selmer cancelled his Martin because they already had a light weight pro-horn (Bach LT16M) I have a pristine Urbie TR-4501. It's an Amazing tenor worth having in any Arsenal.

The 3B or Bach LT12 or LT 16M or Conn 100H minik all had their unique characteristics, and so does the TR-4501.
Responsive with a richness in the tone the others don't have. While the rest were aiming at light-bright-zippy-pingy, the Martin still maintained some of its tonal characteristics through the bell design.

Ron Z

[TromboneMonkey]

I talked with Todd Clontz here in MD and he told me the Martin version of the Steinmeyer horn was not the same as what Dave had; Dave's was special. I think he and Todd designed it over time together to Dave's specifications.

Anyway, I think grossly Olds and Holton horns are underappreciated. I have an Olds Military and Holton 65 which I play more often than all my other horns. You can see my signature for all the other Olds horns I have. The only one I haven't tried that I really want to try is a Radio. I also want to try Holton 63 at some point.

I do have a King 2115 and it's great... Apparently Steinmeyer played a custom .500-bore King 2B before the 2115 was officially released. There's a recording of him playing Through the Eyes of Love on it which has been circulating on YouTube for a while. Honestly I like his sound on that as much or more than I like his sound on his Bach 12G or Martin.

[Klimchak]

I was having Todd Clontz do some work on a horn a good number of years ago while he was working on the Steinmeyer horn. He had a number of Martin Urbie Green bells that he was working on thinning in various parts to see which one Dave preferred the most.