Elkhart 88H with no engraving?

[jcdoubleu77]

I just picked up an M-series Elkhart 88h with no engraving on the bell. Is there any way to identify whether it's an Elkhart bell, a custom job, or a later replacement? What should I look for?

The bell is unlacquered and looks to be rose brass, though the patina is super gnarly - I might even call it crusty. I'm thinking I'll polish it up and let it develop a more even patina over time.

Apparently it was owned by the principal of the North Carolina Symphony in the 60s and 70s. I wish I knew his name so I could learn more about the horn's history. It's definitely sat around unused for a long time. After a bath and some cleaning the slide is remarkably nice, though - no Conn wear to speak of.

[chromebone]

Larry Minick had a cache of unengraved NOS Elkhart bells and other parts that he took from Conn when they moved to Abilene. It’s possible that this is one of those.

[jcdoubleu77]

Huh, that would be cool if that's the case. I don't see any Minick markings anywhere, unfortunately.

If this originally had a stock Elkhart bell, why would someone decide to replace it with another NOS Elkhart bell (assuming that's what this is)? Did Minick do anything special to the bells? The valve and leadpipe all look original, so the bell is the only thing that was modified, as far as I can tell.

[SamBTbrn]

No serial number anywhere? On the slide or neck pipe?

[Jbklyn]

[Hi Joe,

I think it is very possible that you have in your hands an 88H bell worked on by Larry Minick.

Last year, I purchased on Reverb a “Larry Minick 8H bell section 1960's”, from Charles Waynick, a professional trombonist and visual artist in Santa Fe, New Mexico. You may find Charles’s description of the bell of interest:

“I purchased this Larry Minick 8H bell section from D.J. Kennedy over a decade ago. The flare has no engraving whatsoever, just an 8H stamp on the receiver, and the lack of any engraving indicates that this is a Minick bell section (confirmed by Bob Hester, an authority on Minick's work).
Of the dozens of 8H's/88H's l've owned or played over the years, this flare is probably the heaviest of the lot. Although it doesn't have quite as much feedback as the thinner 8H flares from the '50's and early '60's, this bell can take a tremendous amount of volume and the sound still holds together.
“Unlike practically any other 8H/88H bell l've ever played, this bell has absolutely none of the annoying ringing in the vicinity of F# found in varying degrees on almost all Elkhart 8H/88H Elkhart bells, and it plays incredibly evenly through all dynamics and registers….
“The buffing work is meticulous, exhibiting a tight and consistent zig-zag "barber pole" pattern which l've attempted to show in the photos.
“The former owner purchased this bell section from someone in the Louisville area, and there was some speculation that it may have been owned by Patsy McHugh, but that's something I could never confirm.”

Indeed, I find that the 8H bell plays gloriously, in the way Charles describes, especially when paired with red brass slides (I am regularly playing this bell with dual-bore 2547 slides).

The only downside you may find to owning your 88H is if you try to resell it, due to the difficulty in demonstrating Minick provenance with the lack of any visual evidence (at least, as I understand it).

Hope you get lots of pleasure out of your new instrument!

J

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[chromebone]

Huh, that would be cool if that's the case. I don't see any Minick markings anywhere, unfortunately.

If this originally had a stock Elkhart bell, why would someone decide to replace it with another NOS Elkhart bell (assuming that's what this is)? Did Minick do anything special to the bells? The valve and leadpipe all look original, so the bell is the only thing that was modified, as far as I can tell.

Maybe the original bell was damaged?

[jcdoubleu77]

Oh that would be very cool if true! This bell is not nearly as pretty as yours, though it plays beautifully. The receiver is stamped 88h. The inner and outer slides both have the 88h stamp and also matching M-series serial numbers from 1969. I did polish up the gnarly patina with wright’s a bit, and while it’s got a light rosy hue, it doesn’t look like a typical Elkhart bell, though I’m not sure I’m the best judge, not having seen an Elkhart 88h in person in quite a while.

[slipmo]

FWIW, I’ve told clients this before when they speculate that they may have an 88H modified by Larry using an 88H bell from his stock… there’s really no way to confirm it unless the instrument is stamped. Minick trombones almost always have some sort of identifying mark somewhere: on a brace, bell stem, lever, etc.

Even then, most of those were simply stock Conn 88H bells to begin with. Larry did experiment with a few special prototype bells on projects for local LA players and members of the LA Phil, but an unstamped 88H bell, regardless of whether it was mounted by Larry or another tech, is ultimately just an unstamped 88H bell.

That said, Larry also made his own one piece bell flares, which most people are familiar with. These were usually yellow brass or beryllium bronze, and you can generally spot them pretty quickly. The seam is often slightly irregular and not straight, the rim has a very handmade look to it, and Larry would usually stamp his name right at the top under the tuning slide connector. Those bells are fantastic, and a really special part of his legacy.

[jcdoubleu77]

Yep, looks like I have an idiosyncratic but well-playing horn that might be Minick-modified, might have a replacement bell due to damage, or might have any number of other reasons for why it is the way that it is. I wish I could narrow it down further, but maybe it's a dead end. At least I didn't pay Minick money to obtain it!

But in an attempt to get a little more info on it's history and original owner, anyone have any idea who was playing principle in the NC Symphony in the 1960s and 1970s?

I can't come up with anything in my searching. Not like it's going to add any value to the horn or anything, I'm just really curious.

[hyperbolica]

The color looks a little pale to be an Elkhart bell, and I don't see any seam stitching. Elkies were 2 piece, so there should be a seam around the flare and another straight down the axis. Not to let the air out of your Minick tires, but it could be something else, like a Yamaha. Yamahas are plasma welded, so they don't show the stitching. And they are frequently used as spare parts since they are available and relatively cheap.

[jcdoubleu77]

Oh, that could well be! Yamaha would certainly be a natural choice for a replacement bell, given the 643 was supposedly a copy of the 88h. We might be closer to solving this.

(And you're not letting the air out of anything - I had no expectations of this horn, since I picked it up cheap from an estate liquidator. A Minick-modified horn would have been an excellent surprise for sure, but a great-playing horn with a superb slide is a lot more than I was expecting, so I'm quite happy).

[Thrawn22]

Allied i believe sold bells that weren't engraved but stock.

[pkeen]

I had an Abilene Conn 88H when I was in college that the airlines managed to munch the bell right at the main brace. The horn was never anything fabulous but it was my only Horn. I took it to Minick because he had stacks of 88H bells from when Conn moved to Abilene that he managed to scoop up. All had no engraving on them. It improved the Horn but so did one of his lead pipes and Robb Stewart doing an open wrap on the valve section. It’s probably floating around somewhere. It’s a one of a kind as Robb Stewart would never make another one of those wraps again after Minick saw it.

[pkeen]

I had an Abilene Conn 88H when I was in college that the airlines managed to munch the bell right at the main brace. The horn was never anything fabulous but it was my only Horn. I took it to Minick because he had stacks of 88H bells from when Conn moved to Abilene that he managed to scoop up. All had no engraving on them. It improved the Horn but so did one of his lead pipes and Robb Stewart doing an open wrap on the valve section. It’s probably floating around somewhere. It’s a one of a kind as Robb Stewart would never make another one of those wraps again after Minick saw it.

[hornbuilder]

Hand polished red brass does not look like wheel/rouge polished red brass. Hand polished brass looks lighter, and "less red" than full color buffed metal.