Rim & Mouthpiece Buzzing (2026)

[Doug Elliott]

Well that's completely wrong.
YOU have to initiate the jump. Otherwise you're just standing there. The trampoline doesn't initiate, it only reacts. Your air analogy is like adding more weight but still not jumping.

AND...
YOU have to continue to synchronize YOUR jump effort with the rebound. It doesn't do it by itself.

Good analogy, wrong conclusion.

[harrisonreed]

At some point, analogies fail when discussing complicated phenomena, like physics, fluid dynamics, ecological systems, and the like.

...

I think that neither the drumhead nor the trampoline analogies help or are convincing because they look at only one portion of what’s happening in the physics of playing. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Harrison, although I don’t think you’re on the right track. I’m saying that you haven’t convinced me… or David, of Doug, or Maximillien, or so it would seem.

Yeah, I agree. Analogies aren't the best way of explaining things. I am totally getting that vibe too, and honestly didn't expect too many to agree with me.

Well that's completely wrong.
YOU have to initiate the jump. Otherwise you're just standing there. The trampoline doesn't initiate, it only reacts. Your air analogy is like adding more weight but still not jumping.

AND...
YOU have to continue to synchronize YOUR jump effort with the rebound. It doesn't do it by itself.

Good analogy, wrong conclusion.

Yes, I believe I made it clear in the video that we initiate the input, we jump on the trampoline, but that the trampoline interacts immediately back with you. There is no period of "vibrating without the horn" before the horn responds. You don't jump a few cycles of 20 feet without the trampoline before the trampoline pushes on you and syncs with you, which is what Dave is saying. I think I actually address everything your saying in there. I even explicitly say that there is no magic force from the trombone that pushes outward on you, but that it does have inertia that interacts as soon as you push air on it.

[Wilktone]

I wonder what the time-stop movies by Lloyd Leno and Doug Elliott actually show us (assuming the audio and visual track are correctly synchronized)? It’s hard to really know what’s going on when a) it’s hidden from view and b) it moves at hundreds of cycles per second.

Leno's film doesn't really show the beginning of each note, but it does show the transition point between slurs.

Here's a quote that describes what is happening with the lips when changing partials.

The time taken for the lip oscillation and the air column resonance to couple is determined by the period of the acoustic wave within the instrument and the frequency at which the lips are vibrating. Say, for example, that the lips are vibrating at the frequency of a high number mode of the air column e.g. the sixth mode—the player is aiming to play at the sixth mode frequency of the tube. The period of the acoustic wave for a fixed length of tube is constant with respect to frequency, so in the time it takes for the wave to propagate to the end of the instrument and back, the lips will have completed approximately six cycles of the lips before the system is coupled to establish a stable regime of oscillation.

Transient behaviour in the motion of the brass player’s lips during a lip-slur

Every physics resource I'm aware of concerning the acoustics of brass instruments similarly state that it's the vibration of the lips that get the air column to vibrate. The air column then "nudges" the lips to oscillate same frequency of the rate of reflection back to the lips. I've not seen any single one that suggests the instrument itself is responsible for the lips vibrating at a particular frequency. As the quote above notes, there is a transition period at which our lips have to vibrate a number of times before the standing wave will begin to vibrate in tandem with the lips.

It's not a chicken or egg situation, the lip vibration happens first.

Good analogy, wrong conclusion.

And in some parts of this discussion I would say right conclusion, wrong analogy.

Harrison, are you going to let the cat out of the bag about your example? Please do tell, who was that misguided instructor?

Dave

[Wilktone]

Harrison, did you delete your reply? If you're not going to name the misguided instructor can you at least acknowledge that I was demonstrating an exercise for downstream players while intentionally playing on the wrong embouchure type for my anatomy? If you're going to hold up my tone as what happens when free buzzing is used as a "band-aid" can you at least let readers understand the context? Otherwise you're being disingenuous.

Can you also now acknowledge that the lips must cycle at the desired frequency at least a couple of times (and maybe even more) before the standing wave segments into the correct nodes and then provides the feedback to the lips?

Dave

[Wayne]

Now, i'm interested to hear why we should NOT buzz, and the convincing reasons we shouldn't because personally, I don't see reasons not to. I'm also very interested to learn more about the potential benefits, perhaps benefits I don't already know about. I look forward to reading and contributing in this discussion.

The reasons to not buzz pretty much boil down to what would be the reasons to not double on trumpet and trombone or even alto trombone and bass- you might be too stupid to make the small (and they really are small) adjustments needed to accommodate the differences between playing a narrow bore and small mouthpiece and a large bore and a large mouthpiece. If a player is stupid, they will form one embouchure and try to use it for everything: buzzing, high notes, low notes, trombone, tuba, free buzz….

The reasons for buzzing are that a variety of sensations provide a variety of information and different modes of exercise stress systems in slightly different ways that can complement the primary objective.

We like analogies in this thread so here is my training analogy to support any player’s or teacher’s inclusion of buzzing in their tool drawer: building running capacity.

In the earliest stages of getting into running the cardio moves ahead of the muscles and skeleton. Because of that the smart novices will run 2 or 3 short runs a week while using modes such as bicycling, swimming or elliptical training to feed the aerobic growth while the body tissues adapt. At the same time the very smart runner also incorporates dynamic warm ups (all those funny skips and hops and leg swings that don’t look like running), strength training, and some regular recovery work like static stretches to safely add some stimulus for adaptation to the body tissues. So a smart runner will run for about 1 to 3 hours a week when starting but work out for a total of 2 to 3 time that when everything else is included. That’s a lot of not running that directly contributes to becoming a good runner. Over time the mileage and hours on the road increase and the ratio moves more toward running and less toward other modes, though they never disappear and will be leaned upon after injury or illness to recover.

That process almost exactly parallels how I used buzzing or would recommend buzzing be used for playing a brass instrument over a lifetime. Longitudinally, when I was building my game as a younger player I did regularly buzz entire etudes. I worked out things about pitching, musical flow, dynamics and such without having to deal with the slide, the feedback of how perfect the tone was or articulation. As I got further along I did a lot less buzzing and used it in strategic ways listed in earlier posts here. When I was making a living as a player buzzing continued to be a tool I could pull out when I hit a road block. It just let me isolate one part of the problem as I could also isolate working out a rhythm or thinking through slide work without playing the full trombone.

At present the buzzing is much more like cross training that comes out when I’ve had a lay off. I was picking up in early February after a few weeks of not doing much. At that time a good bit of free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing for my first few notes set me up for a successful practice session. Buzzing is fantastic for reminding me where the corners are and for helping to relearn how to seamlessly move up and down through the registers. As I mentioned in above posts , it also overloads the face muscles fairly quickly so they get stronger quickly with less time playing. As an on again off again player I do notice that there is something that happens with the red tissues of the lips. They become much tougher and more resilient after regular playing. When I am out of shape I can’t possible play trombone long enough to get the embouchure muscles working. The buzz is good for that until the lips are ready. I’m about 8 weeks into regular playing now and really don’t need anything other than a bit of “horsey face” to be ready to play my first exercises.

At this point, to paraphrase Sir Robert Borden I buzz if necessary, but don’t necessarily buzz. To conclude I go back to emphasizing that a smart player can tell what the differences between a free buzz a mouthpiece buzz and playing on a horn are and makes those small adjustments easily. The muscular benefits, that are real and apparent for players who don’t put in regular hours, are worth the possible confusion.

As for teachers giving bad advice, that’s as much on the student as the teacher. We all need our own bull detectors.

[LeTromboniste]

I'll say that I would be extremely upset if someone posted a clip from a masterclass of mine without my approval (whether the image or voice is altered to hide my identity or not), and especially to hold it as an example of what not to do. Some of the worst playing I've done in public in the last few years was during lectures or masterclasses, because you're standing there, demonstrating a snippet cold, potentially after talking for a long while, or maybe it's the first notes you play in a couple of hours, and your mind is focused on your presentation and managing the time, and how the audience is responding and whether you need to adjust your presentation on-the-fly and put more emphasis on this instead of that, or, if it's a lesson format with a student playing, you're focused on them, and teaching, and on figuring out what to best focus on in the very little time you have, on what will be most useful to not just them but also to the audience, and not focus on the same point you did with the previous students even if that's actually also what they would ideally need to work on and what you would normally focus on in a normal lesson...basically your mind is on everything but your playing. It's so easy to just start demonstrating something and do a complete mess of it in these conditions. Plus then a short isolated excerpt, even if you're actually demonstrating what you meant in the way you meant, might be completely out of context and reflect poorly. I appreciate the effort to hide who the instructor is, but I think it's extremely poor etiquette either way to post that here in such a discussion. Even more so if that person is someone debating the topic on the forum. I find that highly disrespectful.

I gave a lecture/masterclass at ITF last summer, on the morning after my performance day (which was preceded by an intensive 8-hour rehearsal day of solo material, and before that, two entire days of traveling, with the associated jetlag – so the state of my mind and of my chops that particular morning was not exactly optimal). There were a bunch of last minute mix-ups with the format and scheduling, and I had to forego my warm-up to instead do last minute touch-ups on a PowerPoint meant for different event so that I could use that presentation. At some point after the lecture portion (where I played maybe 10 seconds in total, and those were my first notes of the day), in the lesson portion, I meant to demonstrate to the student that we trombonists are so self-conscious about lip trills being technically difficult, that we often make trills very fast and mechanical, and that something tasteful with just one or two "beats" of the notes would be preferable to a very fast and even trill in many cases – both technically easier and stylistically more convincing. Needless to say, all I actually demonstrated to everyone present through my playing was that trills are not my strength...I'd be absolutely mortified to find out that someone had recorded the livestream, isolated that bit and posted it online to illustrate how not to approach lip trills.

[Wilktone]

Harrison,

I waited a couple of days to both let my irritation fade as well as to give you a chance to clarify or explain yourself. Maybe you’re just too busy to post on the forum, but a short note would have been appreciated.

I do feel that your actions here mean that you owe us at least some answers. Maybe even an apology. Maximilien is right, that was disrespectful, regardless of who the instructor is. What annoys me more is that you deceptively shared an example out of context. You know full well what embouchure type I play with and you have no excuse not to know that it was an example of something for a different embouchure type than mine. I don’t know if you were trying to play “gotcha” or simply flailing around looking for examples to prove your point. Either way, it was dishonest.

Was the example you provided me? I’m not 100% sure, but I believe it was. If not, then I think you owe everyone more context so that we can decide if your assessment of the example is trustworthy. I would also delete that clip from your post and Google Drive while I was at it.

If so, I think you should still go back and edit that post to provide the circumstances anyway. It was a dirty trick. I really don’t care if you leave that clip up, you have my permission, so long as you provide the context for what that demonstration was about.

I’m taking a stab in the dark about who that might have shared that video with you, but I have never given you any online lessons, so wouldn’t have given you permission to record that. Looking back through who received the links to the masterclasses I gave online I don’t see your name either. I don’t recall you attending any of my in person masterclasses either. Someone sent that video to you and that person didn’t have my permission to share it. Please reach out to her and tell her I don't want her sharing that with anyone again. While you're at it, you can delete your copy, since at this time I don't trust you to use your powers for good.

Anything that I have put out myself publicly is fair game. You’re welcome to go after it all you want. Please restrain yourself next time to things that are public, regardless of who it is.

Lastly, I think you owe it to yourself to read up on brass instrument acoustics. It’s your prerogative to be stubborn, but your denial here diminishes your own credibility.

Dave

[Wilktone]

(Audio clip deleted on request)

That was not my request, it's the barest start. If that example wasn't me then you should absolutely delete that clip, but you owe it to every reader to explain the context behind it. Your lack of denial probably speaks for itself. In two other posts (three if we count the post you deleted) you essentially trashed me from the comfort of believing that you were protecting my anonymity. That's just plain rude.

I also want to hear back from you that you contacted the person who shared it to let her know that I don't appreciate her sharing that with other people.

You were either being intentionally dishonest or extremely lazy in your use of the example that was posted. Own up to it.

[harrisonreed]

Give me a sec, Dave, for cripes sake.

So the audio is removed, per the discussion here. I did my best to not identify who the teacher was and I absolutely will not do that. To Dave's assumption that it was shared by someone to me on the forum, no, that was video/audio that is currently publicly available online -- and I'm not going to give the link because that will identify who it was. Search if you must but let's leave them anonymous here - I've deleted the audio to go along with that course of action. But I don't know what that was all about saying it was shared with me by someone.

As far as the context of the video that the audio was from, the instructor in it first suggests to not start the day by buzzing because it's different from the horn and forces the lips to vibrate at a set frequency that isn't what the horn wants as an input (interesting because this is what I've been saying all along). The instructor then demonstrates the exercise without buzzing. Then they suggest that another way to approach the exercise is to *free-buzz* into each note. I don't think any reason for doing this is given, but it is interesting that they suggest not mouthpiece buzzing but also suggest approaching it by free-buzzing it first. They are definitely suggesting it as a way to correct the embouchure though, after the fact, which I, again, disagree with. To me in the original video it seemed like the instructor suggested free-buzzing because that is just what they do, and they they decide after the fact that the embouchure looks better. So that's the context -- an instructor suggesting not to do something and then suggesting an even less (in my opinion) constructive version of that thing as the way to do the exercise or improve the embouchure.

I tried to hide their identity because I wanted to critique the instruction. I can't use myself because I don't teach that -- there is no audio available of me suggesting that someone free-buzz to use. We should question these things that are taught, and why they are taught. We should question if the emperor is actually wearing clothes. Pretty much everything I've posted here has been challenged and laid to rest with a tombstone, and that's the whole point of debate/discussion. I am pretty flabbergasted that I can post a video that says "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" and "when you apply force to a system, the system applies force back on you through inertial resistance" and be told that I'm flat out wrong. But I've been expressing that idea in various forms (type I type II players) since around 2007 and been told I'm wrong every time, so I'm used to it.

You have a lot of slow motion videos of lips inside mouthpieces and papers where people make claims about lips cycling. None of these things go against what I'm saying, though, that the instant you apply an input into the trombone, it is also influencing that input. Right away. You want me to agree with you that the lips cycle a few times at the right frequency before the standing wave occurs, but I won't do that. They sync up at the same time. If they don't, the tone is pinched and poor in quality. The skill (as said way back on page 1) is getting those things synced as quickly as possible, and I believe that buzzing as an input or thinking about your lips cycling the right way before the horn responds is a step in the wrong direction.

Beyond that, Dave, I will say, once again, that it's best for you and I to just agree to disagree on our approaches to teaching and playing. I tried bailing before, and probably should have stayed bailed, but you definitely pulled me back in.

I will say that there's been about 5 videos that were posted here that we've all critiqued and commented on, knowing who the person in question is, likely without their permission, and the one I was the most worried about was the one about Sam Burtis because he's passed away, and nobody had any problems with that aspect of the discussion up to this point. I definitely used negative criticism of the audio I posted (which I really did try to protect, far beyond the other publicly available videos), for sure.

The audio is gone now.

[Wilktone]

Publicly posted makes all the difference. Cite your source now, that would fix everything. Everyone can go and watch it in context.

[Wilktone]

Part 1



Part 2 (cued up to start right where Harrison clipped it)



Now that everyone can go look at the context of the entire lesson I was teaching they can decide for yourself.

If you had simply shared the video I would have been just fine with it - I gave Jim my permission to share it. Taking it out of context and not pointing out that it is a clip of me playing a downstream exercise is disrespectful and dishonest.

Believe what you want about brass acoustics. All I can do now is plant the seed for others to maybe look deeper than your analogies.

[Posaunus]

Part 2 (cued up to start right where Harrison clipped it)

NOT cued up. Where to start viewing?

[Wilktone]

Sorry, posted the same video link twice. Here is it (and I'll try to get it fixed on the original post).



I recommend Jim's channel for all the other lessons he posted. He was doing a very interesting sabbatical project, taking lessons from a wide variety of different teachers in order to improve not just his own playing, but his teaching.

[tbdana]

Sigh...

Okay children, leave me out of your argument, please. Multiple people have written me breathlessly telling me that (or asking me if) Dave was referring to me when he wrote:

Someone sent that video to you and that person didn’t have my permission to share it. Please reach out to her and tell her I don't want her sharing that with anyone again. While you're at it, you can delete your copy, since at this time I don't trust you to use your powers for good.

Sounds like Dave thinks he knows who it is. Dave, if you were passive-aggressively referring to me, please post a retraction. I didn't do it. I don't share things without permission. I don't have anything of yours to share, and even if I did, I would never do anything like that. Not only that, since Harry deleted it I'm still in the dark as to what I'm even accused of sharing improperly. But whatever it is, leave me the fuck out of it. If you were referencing me, apologize. If you were referencing someone else, apologize to her. And rather than demand that Harrison tell her not to share it, do it yourself, like an adult.

All of you, when you're in the fever of your passive-aggressive attacks on each other, don't vaguely bring others into it. If you're going to accuse someone of wrongdoing, then just do it plainly and honestly. Don't be a pussy and slyly use pronouns to hint. There is more than one woman posting here. Either come right out and say who you're accusing or shut the everlovin' fuck up about it, so that the wrong people don't get dragged into it by virtue of your juvenile vagueposting.

There's a reason I rarely come here anymore, and this crap is it. I would have never read this thread had people not asked me if Dave was referring to me. I have zero interest in arguing about stupid stuff like buzzing. Just play the damn trombone. Buzz if you like it, don't if you don't like it. And if you can't play the damn trombone without getting into the weeds on buzzing, you're probably not very good at it and you should go take up butterfly collecting or something more suited to your pedantry.

Grow up. And leave me out of it.

[Wilktone]

Hi, Dana.

Sorry you got dragged into this, that wasn't my intention.

Best,

Dave

[robcat2075]

The inquiry posed was...

Now, i'm interested to hear why we should NOT buzz, and the convincing reasons we shouldn't...

Based on the many trombone player comments in this thread, the reason NOT to buzz is... there is no consensus that it is useful!


Most say it is not useful, or not as useful as actually playing the whole trombone. Either way, the testimonies aren't much more than anecdotes... it works for me! I'm better at ____ ... but not a clear plan on what one does with it.

The problem with anecdotes Is we can't know what would have happened if the other path had been taken.

Maybe Jack would have gotten better anyway over the same period of practice? Or maybe Jill wasn't buzzing properly enough to score a benefit?

For all the advanced music education and brass pedagogy degrees awarded in this country I'd think that some controlled study with actual students would have been done as a dissertation topic on this perennial question. Has it ever been done?

IF buzzing is a real thing shouldn't we have more proof of it after 500+ years of trombone playing?

With so little solid evidence, I'm reminded of studies I've read about "visualization" in sports. They'll take some learners, have one group specifically practice a task (ex: the serve in tennis), another group only visualizes performing the task, and another group does nothing extra.

Of course the practicers got better, but the visualizers got better also.

Is it possible that the devoted mental focus on the mouthpiece, embouchure, breathing, pitch, etc. is the real source of benefit and the buzzing itself is just a MacGuffin?

[BurckhardtS]

Man I haven't posted much lately and been largely lurking, but that was fairly entertaining if nothing else.

...seriously though, this is in a forum called "Teaching and Learning" and I think we maybe need a refresher on the difference between teaching and having a completely academic pedagogical debate.

[Wayne]

For all the advanced music education and brass pedagogy degrees awarded in this country I'd think that some controlled study with actual students would have been done as a dissertation topic on this perennial question. Has it ever been done?

I've been in public education now for almost 27 years. I am more and more convinced that proper studies of education are close to impossible except for very large scale interventions like reading work done in Mississippi. And even there one could ask what part of what was done there was the important part? Was it the "Science of Reading"? Was it the continuous teacher training? Was it the placement of teacher coaches to ensure that schools were following the program and to teach the teachers?

Any teaching/learning situation involves people. People are incredibly variable in how they act, perceive, interpret respond... So when a new thing is tried in education it is very hard to isolate that thing from the teacher, the students, the parents, the classroom lighting, the weather... I don't know that buzzing could be studied. Has daily scale practice been studied? Maybe, but there are players who will swear that "music has enough scales in it that I don't need to practice scales by themselves."

The anecdotes in the thread are worthwhile for our own most important experiments. The experiments of one that are the basis of any real personal development.

[Bassbone11]

throwing my 2c into the mix

Quick intro, I am NOT a buzzer. I've never been good at it and I do my best to not practice anything that is not the full instrument. In the past, I have had success with a buzzing rim when working through some double-buzzing issues and I buzz with a tube on the end of the mouthpiece (the only way I could get a real sound until recently) when the horn is in the shop or if I am having significant trouble getting a line in my ear. That being said, I have getting into some Burtis/Caruso stuff recently and am finding my sound production to be significantly more efficient. Likely related, I am now able to mouthpiece buzz MUCH more easily with a pretty decent sound (whatever that is supposed to mean).

The experience has led me to approach buzzing with 2 goals in mind:
1. pitch check. If my body is trying to play an A but my ear wants to hear a Bb, this can be exposed by removing variables (the instrument) and buzzing with as little hardware as possible.
2. sound production check. if something feels weird when playing I then have the ability to similarly strip away variables to check where the strangeness is coming from. maybe there is work to be done in the efficiency of the buzz if sound isn't coming out properly.

[tim]

Reading Dana's post I found a passage that rings true. "Just play the damn trombone". There it is. I train and examine ski instructors for certification and I've noticed we have a tendency to overthink stuff in that world and it's true here. Sorry. There's a saying," paralysis by analysis". I know there's a need for deeper study but the main thing is playing the trombone.

Bravo Dana. Way to go!

[JacobsianApostle]

I have an adult student who has a lot of musical talent but for the longest time couldn’t play louder than mezzo piano. I tried everything I could think of but nothing changed until she got a practice mute then nearly overnight she learned how to play loud. I’m certain that the exaggerated resistance helped her discover the sensation of leaning the air against the compression of the horn. I ordained that she play a few minutes every day with the mute even if no one was home and she didn’t need it. After a little while she was able to play loud consistently and we forgot about the mute.

I see the value of various buzzing techniques similarly. It’s a teaching tool. Mouthpiece buzzing or free buzzing both exaggerate certain physical sensations which can help a student notice what’s actually going on with their body. Like any teaching tool, its purpose is to train a habit which renders the tool itself irrelevant. The point of working on technique should be to be able to pick up the horn and play as naturally as we would speak. If we’re dependent on the tool in order to feel warmed up and ready to play then we’re just using it as a crutch for improper mechanics or unhelpful habits.

[BurckhardtS]

Reading Dana's post I found a passage that rings true. "Just play the damn trombone". There it is. I train and examine ski instructors for certification and I've noticed we have a tendency to overthink stuff in that world and it's true here. Sorry. There's a saying," paralysis by analysis". I know there's a need for deeper study but the main thing is playing the trombone.

Bravo Dana. Way to go!

The older I get the more I believe that the key is the time and place, and "paralysis by analysis" is really "analysis when there shouldn't be".

I love all manner of technical discussion and discourse, I think it's what makes us unique as humans. Playing any instrument is a technically complex skill that requires understanding of your body and how to make the instrument work. Otherwise, we'd all be reduced to our natural talent and unable to improve our technical ability.

But there is a time and place for analysis. On stage or during a performance is certainly not it. If you are trying to analyze and correct your issues in the moment you are trying to perform... I would expect to be paralyzed.

"Play the damn trombone" and practice "play(ing) the damn trombone". If you are used to analyzing yourself in the moment, it takes a great deal of mental discipline to let it go. But that may be the most important skill our instrument could teach us!

E:...for what it's worth, TromboneChat might be one of the best venues for analysis and technical discussion!