What are the Monettes of the trombone world?

[MStarke]

Trumpet players have Monettes (Lotus, Taylor, Harrelson and more...) Some people love them, some people hate them, not many have tried them and even less can afford them.

But what about the trombone world?

What are the makers that today offer trombones outside the traditional designs?
And have you tried these - what are your impressions?
The ones I would count are Inderbinen, maybe some BAC models (Elliott Mason?) or some Haag trombones.
But there must be more out there?

[Burgerbob]

The other thing about Monettes is that they don't sound like anything else, and you will have a hard time using them in a section with "normal" trumpets. You have to stay in the ecosystem or they cease to make sense, like an Apple product in a way.

[MStarke]

The other thing about Monettes is that they don't sound like anything else, and you will have a hard time using them in a section with "normal" trumpets. You have to stay in the ecosystem or they cease to make sense, like an Apple product in a way.

Probably true, but still curious!

[Posaunus]

I understand that many (especially brass players) in the Boston Symphony Orchestra were relieved when Monette-playing principal trumpet Charles Schlueter finally retired. He just didn't blend with the other trumpets.

[JTeagarden]

To be like a Monette, its trombone equivalent would weigh 35-40 lbs.

[WGWTR180]

Didn't Douglas Yeo play win a Monette bell for awhile? I seem to remember that he was around 1987/88 when I was studying with him. I don't think that it weighed 35/40 pounds.

[harrisonreed]

Didn't Douglas Yeo play win a Monette bell for awhile? I seem to remember that he was around 1987/88 when I was studying with him. I don't think that it weighed 35/40 pounds.

I think that they meant a whole instrument, if it were built like this:

images (11).jpeg

[CalgaryTbone]

Doug Yeo and Norman Bolter both played prototype Monette bells for a while in the BSO. So I guess the answer to the OP is that Monette is the Trombone equivalent of Monette Trumpets.

Jim Scott

[Kbiggs]

Many years ago, I played in a quintet with some of the guys who worked at Monette. I used a Monette mouthpiece, a 42H bell, and an open leadpipe. They asked me to try one of the prototypes sitting in the shop gathering dust: a 42 slide and tuning slide, with a Monette neckpipe (IIRC) and a Monette bell. It weighed only slight less than my 42BH at the time.

Like the mouthpieces (at the time), it was heavy. Also like the mouthpieces, if you played in what Monette calls a “neutral” posture, and use only the necessary muscles while playing, it worked well. It had limited tonal colors, but if you played “in the slot,” it was almost magical.

My horn’s heavy setup worked best in that quintet, but not in the orchestra I played in at the time for the reasons noted above: it was a different sound that stood out. It was sometimes difficult to hear up close, but I was told it projected well. Perhaps too well.

[GabrielRice]

Doug Yeo's Monette had a single Thayer valve, Monette bell (I'm sure it was a bell they bought and treated, and Bach slide with a crook that had been treated - and by treated I mean annealed to the point of being very soft. Maybe a leadpipe also.

There were 4 or 5 Monette large bore tenor trombones, owned by Norman Bolter, Darren Acosta, Larry Isaacson, Scott Hartman, and maybe somebody else. Norman's was a straight tenor compatible with his 88H, and at the time I was studying with him he was sometimes playing the Monette bell with the Conn slide or vice-versa. I only remember one or two occasions when he played the complete Monette instrument. I think Larry Isaacson's had a valve.

During most of Charlie Schlueter's tenure with the BSO the rest of the trumpet section would also play Monettes. A whole section of them could sound absolutely fantastic. Tim Morrison was the exception playing a Yamaha, but as he was assistant (associate?) principal they mostly didn't play in the section at the same time. Towards the end Charlie took a leave year, and they all switched back to Bach and didn't return to Monette when he came back. I was there playing extra during some times of obvious tension, but they all carried themselves professionally.

[Doug Elliott]

Cannons

[Finetales]

I've played some BACs that were 100% the trombone equivalent of a Monette trumpet. Super heavyweight, all copper or some other nonsense, sheet metal bracing, absurdly dark sound. Not all BACs are like that, but they're out there.

[Fruitysloth]

I haven't had the experience of playing them, but I feel like Inderbinen could be on this list. Has anyone played them in the states?

[tbonesullivan]

I'm trying to think of any trombone makers that are "like" Monette, and their very interesting design philosophy. Of course just figuring out what that is can be a trial, as their trumpets are supposed to be all pretty much fit to the player, down to the mouthpiece, and have a point of pretty much saying that your trumpet should only use the mouthpiece designed for it. The trumpets I see all seem to be very heavily built, though they do list lighter instruments. I guess I admire the singular pursuit of making a trumpet "like it should be" in Monette's mind, but if they don't blend with other trumpets....

[NotSkilledHere]

to be fair, i dont think people buying Monette $20k trumpets are trying to blend with anyone. They are chasing "their sound" to the very ends of the earth, whatever that may be, at whatever cost. I think the purpose of Monettes are that they definitively stand out from the crowd. In well almost every way. Price, build, sound, etc. so definitely built more for people who are entirely soloists or always needing to stand out I guess.

to find someone like them, you'd have to find a trombone builder that builds horns to the player alone, in a vacuum, without consideration of any other players around them, with the sole intention of it being a horn built for someone who basically is only playing solos or alone....and basically with no concern to how someone else might value it were they to try to sell it. the horn would be built specifically for that person and only that person down to the ferrules and horn geometry.

I dont think there are many bone players out there who are going to look at a say 500 bore straight horn and say "hmm yes ill pay 20k and have you R&D from scratch the entire horn down to geometry and materials so that it fits me and only the sound i dream about. and then everything and everyone else will be formed to suit the sound that comes from the horn and me."

[claf]

I have seen some Monette mouthpieces in trumpet sections (including me, I use a Monette C2.5S3 on my C trumpet because it works so well, but I'm not playing Monettes on my Bb trumpets), but rarely Monette instruments.

3 exceptions come to mind: Charles Schlueter and Manny Laureano. They are both principals in symphony orchestras.
There is also Wynton in the JLCO.

Monette trumpets stand out in a non-Monette section, but they sound really great on their own. My reference there is Charlie Porter: awesome sound in a small band.

[BassBoneFL]

Like Gabe said, only a handful of Monette trombones were made and most of them for people in the Boston sphere of influence. (although he did make one for Crisafulli when Dave was working in Chicago in the early/mid 80s) FWIW, one of them may be coming on the market fairly soon.

[chromebone]

I remember Taylor made some Monnette-esque trombones. They had very heavy bells.

[peteedwards]

Bonette?

[musicofnote]

Side note:
A former trumpet student of mine LOVES his Monette and plays it every chance he gets. But only in situations where he's solo. Or with another Monette player.

For all other occasions, he plays my old Bach C trumpet (no bracing, Herseth lead pipe, Schilke tuning slide, 238 bell amado water keys). Great horn for those who can play it. Unfortunately, after having it "fixed" in this manner as was stylish then (1980s), I determined, that I needed more resistance in a trumpet as I got with it and just adding the braces back wouldn't help enough. Just went completely in the wrong direction with the horn - but didn't want to pay to reverse it. But that was shortly before I quite trumpet altogether - and after I quit, I gave it to him.

[Kbiggs]

For a brief period, Aaron Levere played a Monette mouthpiece, slide, and leadpipe. This was just before he left Oregon Symphony and joined Baltimore SO. I don’t remember what bell section and flare he used. The slide crook had an asymmetrical curve on it like the more recent Monette trumpets (and their copies). Monette had a video of Aaron play testing it in their shop, but I can’t find the clip.

Like a lot of Monette equipment, it had a consistent sound and response throughout the range of the horn. I heard from other players in the section that it was difficult to hear up close (a common comment on Monette equipment), making blend and balance more challenging.

to be fair, i dont think people buying Monette $20k trumpets are trying to blend with anyone. They are chasing "their sound" to the very ends of the earth, whatever that may be, at whatever cost. I think the purpose of Monettes are that they definitively stand out from the crowd. In well almost every way. Price, build, sound, etc. so definitely built more for people who are entirely soloists or always needing to stand out I guess.

to find someone like them, you'd have to find a trombone builder that builds horns to the player alone, in a vacuum, without consideration of any other players around them, with the sole intention of it being a horn built for someone who basically is only playing solos or alone....and basically with no concern to how someone else might value it were they to try to sell it. the horn would be built specifically for that person and only that person down to the ferrules and horn geometry.

I dont think there are many bone players out there who are going to look at a say 500 bore straight horn and say "hmm yes ill pay 20k and have you R&D from scratch the entire horn down to geometry and materials so that it fits me and only the sound i dream about. and then everything and everyone else will be formed to suit the sound that comes from the horn and me."

A bit of hyperbole, I think.

When I was hanging around the Monette shop and playing some of his equipment, my impression was that Dave Monette wants to build instruments that sound and respond evenly, have a consistent scale, without players needing to make adjustments for the different partials, registers, specific notes, etc. If someone is already famous and want to play Monette horns, David will make a horn for them, but it has to satisfy his requirements first. Most of his horns, however, are made for the player who is dissatisfied with having to adjust slides and embouchure to be in tune, and have some extra cash to justify the purchase.

I don’t know whether this is an accurate way to think of it, but I believe that Monette prioritizes consistent response and intonation over timbre/tone quality and blend. I don’t believe that was a conscious choice, but rather a result of his design principles and aesthetic. Once he realized he wasn’t able to build a trumpet that had consistent sound and response with a conventional sound, he accepted that and moved on.

[fsgazda]

Back in the 1990's I was hanging out at the Brasslab in NY, and Chuck made the comment that Monett trumpets, Lawson horns, and Edwards trombones (at the time they were fairly new and almost everything was heavy) all had the same characteristics. Very even scale, very even range, and very even sound. Too even. Chuck said "they can play soft grey, or loud grey, but can't not be grey".

[piddlepaddle1]

Luckily Trormbone players are too smart to be convinced into buying a $20,000 instrument.

[GabrielRice]

ooh ooh ooh...here are more fantastic excerpts from that same BSO Bartok Concerto performance. And here you can see Norman's Monette bell section, pretty sure with his 88H slide. Ron Barron, who also grew up playing a Conn, is playing a 42 here - probably with gold brass bell and LW slide. 2nd trumpet is Peter Chapman, 3rd is Steve Emery.

These excerpts really capture the range of color and texture available with those trumpets to people who are very accustomed to playing them. I get that it's not to everyone's taste, but you can't deny that this is some pretty spectacular music-making.

[Windmill]

In France some new builder called Alpha makes some trombones actually looking like Monettes. Medium 12.9mm bore.

https://www.csmusiquealpha.com/

[tbonesullivan]

Doug Yeo's Monette had a single Thayer valve, Monette bell (I'm sure it was a bell they bought and treated, and Bach slide with a crook that had been treated - and by treated I mean annealed to the point of being very soft. Maybe a leadpipe also.

Any idea how much that trombone influenced his subsequent Yamaha models? My 822 definitely has a pretty heavy bell, and they are known for having a lot of "core" to the sound.

[harrisonreed]

I don’t know whether this is an accurate way to think of it, but I believe that Monette prioritizes consistent response and intonation over timbre/tone quality and blend. I don’t believe that was a conscious choice, but rather a result of his design principles and aesthetic. Once he realized he wasn’t able to build a trumpet that had consistent sound and response with a conventional sound, he accepted that and moved on.

This is the rub right here. The trumpet characteristically changes sound/timbre depending on the register and dynamics. Sort of like the classic examples of the 88H (yes, all trombones do this, too, the 88H is just really good at it).

You literally cannot have a trumpet that has a consistent sound throughout all dynamics and registers that sounds "conventional". Response or intonation, maybe, but not sound.

And you can hear it a bit in the video Gabe just posted -- towards the end the trumpets are ripping into their instruments but it sounds so dark and "full". And those appear to be C trumpets no less. Don't get me wrong, I loved the playing, but you expect the trumpet to light up and have a brilliant sound in those passages. They didn't. That was the only real jarring thing though, wonderful section and wonderful sound.

[WGWTR180]

Luckily Trormbone players are too smart to be convinced into buying a $20,000 instrument.

True but we are getting closer and closer with the 16K Brian Hecht Thein Bass.

[Burgerbob]

To be fair, that's all Theins. They've always had that premium over well, basically every other brand.

[hornbuilder]

I agree with Harrison here. The trumpets in the videos don't "sound" like I expect/want trumpets to sound. They "need" to have brilliance and color in high tessitura and loud dynamics. Perhaps I've been spoiled by hearing Chicago in the last few years? Esteban palys with such fantastic brilliance and vibrancy it is electrifying!! Those Monettes, not so much

[GabrielRice]

Doug Yeo's Monette had a single Thayer valve, Monette bell (I'm sure it was a bell they bought and treated, and Bach slide with a crook that had been treated - and by treated I mean annealed to the point of being very soft. Maybe a leadpipe also.

Any idea how much that trombone influenced his subsequent Yamaha models? My 822 definitely has a pretty heavy bell, and they are known for having a lot of "core" to the sound.

I think the bell of the 622/822 was based on that Monette bell. The sound of the instrument is really very different though.

[harrisonreed]

I agree with Harrison here. The trumpets in the videos don't "sound" like I expect/want trumpets to sound. They "need" to have brilliance and color in high tessitura and loud dynamics. Perhaps I've been spoiled by hearing Chicago in the last few years? Esteban palys with such fantastic brilliance and vibrancy it is electrifying!! Those Monettes, not so much

It's the same with older recordings of orchestra trombone sections. I LOVE modern trombone designs, but sometimes you just don't or can't get the "brassy" sound they used to get when they were ripping into it on some of the new-ish designs being made. Some of that is mouthpiece trends too.

I'm thinking especially if the wonderful playing on the original Star Wars sound track, for example.

I think the pendulum is swinging back the other way though. Maybe in the last 10-15 years. No doubt M&W makes horns across that whole spectrum, depending on what the customer wants.

[hornbuilder]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, so I will make my reply to Harrison short.
No. I do not make horns across the whole spectrum. My instruments generally all fall within the "light bell/heavy slide" arena. There have been a few light (sleeveless) slides, but sleeved slides are well and truly the majority of what I sell. Similarly, my heaviest bells would be considered "light" compared to some other offerings out there.

[harrisonreed]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, so I will make my reply to Harrison short.
No. I do not make horns across the whole spectrum. My instruments generally all fall within the "light bell/heavy slide" arena. There have been a few light (sleeveless) slides, but sleeved slides are well and truly the majority of what I sell. Similarly, my heaviest bells would be considered "light" compared to some other offerings out there.

Thanks! Sorry about that.

[hornbuilder]

No need to apologize. No offense was taken

[timothy42b]

Not meaning to hijack the thread, so I will make my reply to Harrison short.
No. I do not make horns across the whole spectrum. My instruments generally all fall within the "light bell/heavy slide" arena.

Back when Greenhoe was here (well, on OTJ) he said the same thing. IIRC.

[Kbiggs]

A minor correction:

I don’t know whether this is an accurate way to think of it, but I believe that Monette prioritizes consistent response and intonation over timbre/tone quality and blend. I don’t believe that was a conscious choice, but rather a result of his design principles and aesthetic. Once he realized he wasn’t able to build a trumpet that had consistent sound and response with a conventional timbre, he accepted that and moved on.

Monette and his horns are controversial. Aesthetic choices often are. For the players—our colleagues, our band and orchestra mates, those of us here on TC, etc.—our equipment is the result of choices. Sometimes the choice is to follow our teacher’s instructions, sometimes it’s to follow our own idea of sound and musicality.

The audience sees the person and hears the sound of the trombone. They don’t care about equipment unless the sound is instinctively negative or it’s been conditioned by their education, training and experience. (“This is what a good sound on the trombone is like,” says the symphony trombonist. “No, this is the sound of a good trombone,” says the trombonist from the rival symphony across the city.) Even so, an educated audience member might say, “It’s the player, not the horn.”

Call me an apologist if you like, but Monette and his trumpets have their followers partly because they fill a need, something that we, as trombonists, might not fully understand. I don’t think that’s a good or bad thing. It’s different, yes… very different. But if Monette’s aesthetic values response, intonation, and consistency over conventional timbre, then who am I to argue?*

Besides, who’s to say he won’t someday square the circle, i.e., build an instrument that has a more conventional timbre and is more even and consistent in response?**



*This is my interpretation of Monette instruments, not Monette’s.
**I’ve played alongside people who played some of his earlier trumpets, the ones that look and sound more conventional. I think those earlier instruments were a better balance of the aesthetic values I outlined. But who am I to talk? I’m just a trombone player.

[Tbarh]

I understand that many (especially brass players) in the Boston Symphony Orchestra were relieved when Monette-playing principal trumpet Charles Schlueter finally retired. He just didn't blend with the other trumpets.

Except that the other trumpet players played Monette too !

[GabrielRice]

Besides, who’s to say he won’t someday square the circle, i.e., build an instrument that has a more conventional timbre and is more even and consistent in response?**

He has to at least some extent. There are lightweight Monettes that are even finished in shiny silverplate. They sound much more conventional.

[CalgaryTbone]

There was a point when Jim Pugh was working with Monette to create a small bore horn. I think Jim played his prototype for a couple of years, and there were a few of them made for other players.

Jim Scott

[AndrewMeronek]

I ran across Jennifer Wharton posting this pic in Facebook which features Elliot Mason holding this interesting monstrosity:

2345.png

[Burgerbob]

Yes, that's his model. He's been playing it a long time.

[Posaunus]

... pic in Facebook which features Elliot Mason holding this interesting monstrosity:

Yes, that's his model. He's been playing it a long time.

Elliot's BAC special. But he sure makes it sound good!

[dukesboneman]

Monette has done a masterful job of creating this mystique around their horns, and mouthpieces to a lesser degree.
I have no doubt that they play very well in he right hands or the right wallet.
Wynton,& Ingrid Jensen sound amazing on them but.... They would and have sounded fantastic on other gear.
If I remember correctly, Monette`s really came into their own with Wynton and the whole rise of the "Bigger and Heavier" horn trend.

[WGWTR180]

I played and had a chance to own a Minick belled Conn 62H instrument that sounded great but was one of the heaviest instruments I have ever played. Couldn't get through a long gig with it. And with a mute???? YIKES!

[Digidog]

A friend of mine bought a Monette trumpet many years ago - maybe around 1998-99 - and he sounded great on it. A fabulous sound with heft and girth to its core, with something special going on in the overtones. I would not say that it lacked overtone resonance, but it was definitely different. I tried it a couple of times, but not with a Monette mpc though, and it was easy playing, nicely slotting and free blowing.

It was - at the time - grotesquely expensive, heavy as a hog and not super ergonomic to my hands. My friend didn’t play it for long, though, and he ultimately sold it with a profit.

[SlideCrook]

I played Doug Yeo's Monette trombone back in 2004 or 2005 for a total of 2 minutes from the sorry sap sucker that bought it when he (DY) had it for sale. Doug Yeo was asking a lot for it. The guy who bought it paid a lot for it, and was too embarrassed to ever reveal the price. The only hint was "I could have bought a car". The bell was unmarked. The "spin marks" were still evident on the bell. It gave a nonresonant "thud" when I flicked the bell with my finger. I'm unsure of the value of this scientific test.

My young first impressions were:

1. Very difficult to have a quick response. Like uncomfortably delayed. Which lead to an unpredictable attack. I'm sure with a few more minutes to "get it dialed in" would have helped, but it felt like trying to run in Firefighter boots.
2. The slide was too short for in in-tune Low C (Bach problem,sure). Which I had difficulty getting to speak anyway.
3. My other single-valve basses in my personal arsenal at the time were a YBL-322R and a 71H. I'd pick either of those first.
4. I was playing in a quartet with a 42B, 42T, and a B454. I tried the "DY-M1" on both 3rd and 4th parts, and just couldn't put my finger on how to blend. I'm sure it would handle loud dynamics well, but this experiment was done in Victorian-style multiplex, and we were trying to be considerate.
5. The owner of the horn NEVER used that instrument in any University Ensembles.
6. I asked him about the horn a few years ago, and he quickly deflected the topic as if I brought up a secret prom-night conception at Christmas Dinner. I'll see him again in December, and try to strike up the conversation again and let you know.

[harrisonreed]

I ran across Jennifer Wharton posting this pic in Facebook which features Elliot Mason holding this interesting monstrosity:

2345.png

I've played the prototype of that horn that he sold to his student.

.... It's fantastic.

I didn't like the outer slide grip, though. They literally used heavy gauge wire for the brace your right hand holds. So thin. But it was an absolute joy to play.

[chromebone]

Here’s one. For a mere $23,000, you can be the envy of all of your friends in the section.
https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item ... browse_tab

[harrisonreed]

What is it made of pure gold? Where is the cutout lampshade style double bell skin?