Bass Trumpet

[officermayo]

Recently picked up a bass trumpet for use in church orchestra. The acoustics in the sanctuary make my euphonium stick out like a sore thumb (not enough room for my trombone), so I tried the bass trumpet and now I blend much better with the other brass. Started off using an old Bach 17C but didn't like the sound. On the advice of more experienced bass trumpet players I got a Bach 22D and now I'm happy with the sound I produce.

Anyone else play the bass trumpet and if so, what mp do you use?

[CheeseTray]

A shallow cup is definitely the right approach for bass trumpet. I have a Getzen which I have played extensively over the years (mostly in orchestras). I've tried many different things but have been using the Marcinkiewicz ET4 (Lloyd Ulyate) for the past couple of years and found it to be very consistent in response top to bottom.

[Finetales]

Right now I'm on a Bach Corp 12C for bass trumpet. Works better than my Bach 15, which works better on alto trombone. Neither of those mouthpieces feel like they're anywhere close to endgame, but they do the job for all zero times bass trumpet and alto trombone leave my apartment.

[Burgerbob]

I have a 15D that makes a great sound in mine.

[JasonDonnelly]

I originally used an alto mouthpiece, a Greg Black NY 3A, which worked okay, but I switched to a JK 8G and that really helped my sound light up. It has a 25.25 mm rim diameter, which is probably about the smallest thing I can semi-comfortably fit on my face - the Bach 15C and 22C both felt impossibly small for me. I've since switched to using a JK 7F on alto, and that mouthpiece is also useful on bass trumpet if I want a slightly wider, less Wagnerian sound.

[Kbiggs]

Doug Elliott XT 103/B/2

I wonder whether Harry’s mouthpieces might work?

[harrisonreed]

Both the A1 and A2 mouthpieces I make are shallower than a Bach 12C. In fact they are almost exactly between a Bach 17C (deeper) and 15EW (shallower). The difference between the A1 and A2 has to do with the entrance into the throat and the backbores, otherwise the cups are extremely similar.

That said, I have designed these for an Eb instrument. They are slightly shorter, and optimized to play in tune on an Eb instrument. They work pretty well on tenor but because they go in slightly further into the leadpipe, by design so that the alto trombone plays with just the right amount of resistance, they feel almost too open on small tenor. I don't know how they would play on bass trumpet. It might be awesome, especially if the bass trumpet usually plays "tight" (never played one!).

Bass trumpet played by trombonists to me always sounds too much like a baritone or French horn and nothing like a trumpet, almost like the compression is not quite right. Maybe it's supposed to be that way. I would want something that gives it a better trumpet quality and projection, and that would probably involve a longer shank and longer throat, making it unfamiliar feeling to trombonists. From what I could gather, the mouthpieces that people generally use on this instrument are either deeper than my alto designs, or very narrow with a conical cup, like the low numbered Schilkes. This probably explains some of the baritone vs french horn type sounds people are getting on them. Trumpet mouthpieces aren't like that. It's an interesting thing to think about.

[bitbckt]

DE XT 104/B/2 on an Elkhart Bach here, anything bigger gets into sounds like Harry is describing ("too much like a baritone or French horn"). In sound and approach, it is very much a trumpet.

[slidesix]

Officer Mayo, I think you are onto something here with the small bell. Like a heroic sounding sackbutt! But with more Trumpet than Sackbutt DNA. I agree on the trumpet mouthpiece should have more trumpet dna. You gotta keep the trumpet’ness of it there. Stay Heroic, my friend!

[officermayo]

Officer Mayo, I think you are onto something here with the small bell.

Thanks!
It's not because I'm some kind of bass trumpet wiz - it's because the Schiller was all I could afford.

[deanmccarty]

I use an Elliott 95B… plays great on my Holton bass trumpet

[davdud101]

I had one for a couple years. Mine was a Wessex where all three solder points holding the valve block to the bell spontaneously broke - only a few hours before a performance. It already struggled a bit with projection and I liked the tone, but after that repair, it was like blowing through a tube of concrete.

I hope your Schilller lasts way longer!

[officermayo]

I had one for a couple years. Mine was a Wessex where all three solder points holding the valve block to the bell spontaneously broke - only a few hours before a performance. It already struggled a bit with projection and I liked the tone, but after that repair, it was like blowing through a tube of concrete.

I hope your Schilller lasts way longer!

This is my 3rd Schiller horn (previously bought a baritone and a euphonium) in the last three years, and so far I've had no issues whatsoever with any of them.

[officermayo]

My horn came in one of those cheap cases that are styrofoam covered with nylon. Due to being one eyed (no depth perception) and slightly crippled, I tend to bang cases around. I searched for a hard case but came up with nothing, so I DIYed a spare trombone case.

Surgically removed unneeded styrofoam, added some soft padding and covered it up with a remnant of plush fleece. Fits perfectly and was made with supplies on hand so, no out of pocket cost.

[Finetales]

That said, I have designed these for an Eb instrument. They are slightly shorter, and optimized to play in tune on an Eb instrument.

What about an Eb bass trumpet?

[harrisonreed]

That said, I have designed these for an Eb instrument. They are slightly shorter, and optimized to play in tune on an Eb instrument.

What about an Eb bass trumpet?

There is only one way to find out!!

[AtomicClock]

I tend to bang cases around.

Styrofoam cone in your bell. In ALL your bells.

[cgaiii]

Just stumbled across this thread.
I think the mouthpiece greatly depends on the bass trumpet itself and the goals of your playing.
I did a lot of experimenting with mouthpieces, but ended up with a fairly large one, a Schilke 51 (gradually working up to it and past it finally settling there). I started with the smaller pieces as recommended by many, but they just did not work for what I wanted -- very solid low register. I found there was a tradeoff between size and slotting and picked a happy medium for me.
If you are playing a lot in the high register and more symphonic purposes, it seems that the smaller mouthpieces might work well, but others are more knowledgeable than I am about approaches to symphonic music.

[harrisonreed]

High register bass trumpet playing?

[Burgerbob]

The Rheingold part goes up to double Gb. Plenty of high notes in the rep.

[harrisonreed]

The Rheingold part goes up to double Gb. Plenty of high notes in the rep.

Wow, that one does get up there! Gb5!

Shows you what I know about the bass trumpet

[Finetales]

Out of the standard rep, the Rite of Spring and the Janacek Sinfonietta are probably the only bass trumpet parts that don't go way up there.

That Rheingold Gb isn't even slurred up to, you have to pick it out. Then there's the high F in the big ending. Walkure has high Es, Gotterdammerung has high Ebs along with the lowest note in the rep (low Gb). The Strauss parts all have high Ds, Gurre-Lieder has high Ebs.

[harrisonreed]

Now I'm actually curious if my alto trombone mouthpieces would work on that instrument.

[Finetales]

Alto mouthpieces are often a good match for bass trumpet, especially smaller ones. Worth a shot!

[Burgerbob]

Send me one to try

[harrisonreed]

That's a good idea!

[bbocaner]

I use a Mount Vernon 12c on my Mount Vernon Bach bass trumpet - it just seems to match well. On my Thein I use a Doug Elliott LT100/B/B2 which is extremely shallow but I picked it because it gave me a real trumpet-like timbre instead of a valve trombone timbre.

[Kbiggs]

Out of the standard rep, the Rite of Spring and the Janacek Sinfonietta are probably the only bass trumpet parts that don't go way up there.

That Rheingold Gb isn't even slurred up to, you have to pick it out. Then there's the high F in the big ending. Walkure has high Es, Gotterdammerung has high Ebs along with the lowest note in the rep (low Gb). The Strauss parts all have high Ds, Gurre-Lieder has high Ebs.

I wonder whether Wagner had an E-flat or F bass trumpet in mind when he wrote those operas. I don’t know the ranges of the operas, or the range of an Eb/F bass trumpet. What instrument did Wagner have in mind?

[harrisonreed]

Out of the standard rep, the Rite of Spring and the Janacek Sinfonietta are probably the only bass trumpet parts that don't go way up there.

That Rheingold Gb isn't even slurred up to, you have to pick it out. Then there's the high F in the big ending. Walkure has high Es, Gotterdammerung has high Ebs along with the lowest note in the rep (low Gb). The Strauss parts all have high Ds, Gurre-Lieder has high Ebs.

I wonder whether Wagner had an E-flat or F bass trumpet in mind when he wrote those operas. I don’t know the ranges of the operas, or the range of an Eb/F bass trumpet. What instrument did Wagner have in mind?

No idea if this is accurate, but according to this guy's article:

https://steemit.com/music/@harlotscurse ... ss-trumpet

It was originally scored for Eb saxtromba, which was apparently such a bad instrument that he abandoned it for a specially designed bass trumpet.

[Finetales]

I wonder whether Wagner had an E-flat or F bass trumpet in mind when he wrote those operas. I don’t know the ranges of the operas, or the range of an Eb/F bass trumpet. What instrument did Wagner have in mind?

The Ring part is mostly in Eb, with some D and C.

[CalgaryTbone]

The Rite of Spring is written in E flat transposition, but most/many people play it on a piston B flat. It would go down to the lowest note on an E flat instrument. It's also written as a double in the 4th C trumpet part, so he may have conceived it as a trumpet double.

I had a good-playing Getzen B flat for a while, and I usually found that my alto mouthpieces were the best fit for it. Even stuff like the Rite or the Janacek which are fairly low sounded their best with a cup that was shallow to medium shallow. It helps to get a more trumpet-like sound rather than disappearing into the trombone sound.

Jim Scott

[sf105]

I wonder whether Wagner had an E-flat or F bass trumpet in mind when he wrote those operas. I don’t know the ranges of the operas, or the range of an Eb/F bass trumpet. What instrument did Wagner have in mind?

The Ring part is mostly in Eb, with some D and C.

One of the trumpets at the Royal Opera is convinced that it should be played on an Eb instrument, which would explain the high range and horrible transpositions.

[sf105]

The Rite of Spring is written in E flat transposition, but most/many people play it on a piston B flat. It would go down to the lowest note on an E flat instrument. It's also written as a double in the 4th C trumpet part, so he may have conceived it as a trumpet double.

I think that's fairly clear from the part. The modern habit of using a trumpet on a C or Bb played by a trombone player is good for getting someone an extra fee, but means that there's always one player sitting on their hands.

S

[Finetales]

Yes, the Rite was written for a 4-valve Eb (multiple low Fs in the first muted entrance), and to be doubled by the 4th trumpet. I've done it that way (playing the entire part, both C trumpet and bass trumpet) and it's way more fun than both players just sitting there for half of the piece.

The Ring part works fine on a good C, and there's even a version out there that rewrites the whole part in C. But as someone who has a 4-valve Eb (with D rotor tap), it works really nice on that. It would be fun to play the part with both an Eb/D and a C at hand. Strauss also wrote entirely for Eb or D bass trumpet.

The lowest note in the Ring (or any other standard bass trumpet rep) is low Gb, which is the lowest non-pedal note on a 3-valve C. I tend to think the Janacek Sinfonietta is the only one where a Bb instrument is really the best choice. Some non-standard rep goes lower and is very much intended for a Bb instrument (Glazunov La Mer has low Es and pedal Bbs).

[sf105]

The Ring part works fine on a good C, and there's even a version out there that rewrites the whole part in C. But as someone who has a 4-valve Eb (with D rotor tap), it works really nice on that. It would be fun to play the part with both an Eb/D and a C at hand. Strauss also wrote entirely for Eb or D bass trumpet.

The lowest note in the Ring (or any other standard bass trumpet rep) is low Gb, which is the lowest non-pedal note on a 3-valve C.

There's a group in Dresden working their way through, what a friend of mine calls, a "full-vegan" period Ring cycle. It would be interesting to find out what they're using.

S