Tuning-in-Slide for large bore tenors

[Jbklyn]

Hello everyone!

First time poster here. Do any of you have thoughts about tuning-in-slide for large tenors, like what Greenhoe and some of the other custom makers are doing. Please share

Thank you, in advance!

Jon

[MStarke]

I love my basses with TIS (Greenhoe, 62h and 70h) and like heavier slides and lighter bells on tenor, so would also be very interested as well. I have not yet had the chance to play a large tenor with TIS unfortunately...

[CalgaryTbone]

I really liked that horn at the Greenhoe booth at the ITF last summer in London, ON. The Shires Rejano model (regular tuning slide) was another favorite, and I described the 2 horns to a friend as the Rejano being like a great SUV with 4 wheel drive, and the Greenhoe being like a sports car hugging the curves of a twisting road.

All of the Greenhoes felt good to me, but the in-slide-tuning model felt very responsive, and it had a sound that adapted to how you blew/attacked. Very malleable in my opinion. I did not play it with others, however, so my impression comes just from playing the horn by myself in a rather noisy room.

Jim Scott

[Burgerbob]

I've liked a few TIS large bores at shows... But I think the proof is in the pudding, they are simply not really used anywhere I see.

[CalgaryTbone]

I am not good at posting videos to sites like this, but I would suggest checking out a video on YouTube by the Viennas Symphony Brass (NOT the Vienna Philharmonic) playing the Dukas - Fanfare from La Peri. The trombones are using slide tuning Schagerls, and the group sounds fantastic. A bit different from the North American standard sound, with rotary trumpets and Vienna horns, but great blend and tuning.

Jim Scott

[harrisonreed]

The mechanism makes the slide heavy. That alone to me is not worth the trade off. Especially since slides are already "tuning in hand". I end up having the tuning mechanism pushed in all the way on TIS anyways so it's basically pointless unless the room or outdoors is 95⁰ F.

Don't get me wrong, the benefit of the constant bell taper is nice, even nicer on alto, but a heavy slide is not nice for legato playing.

Would be cool if they made a TIS style horn with the constant taper but ... without the TIS. Or just a really small version that barely adjusts at the very end of the slide crook that didn't add any weight. I remember a long time ago when I was coming to grips with "playing long on the slide", I asked Shires for a longer than standard slide. What my mind really was thinking of was TIS. But TIH is better. The tuning mechanisms on all trombones are pretty much redundant.

[hyperbolica]

All the TIS horns I've owned have been basses and old small bores. Most of them have been old except the Kanstul 1662i. Kanstul also made a couple large tenor TIS horns which have a cult following if they aren't (weren't) best sellers.

I like the velvety tone a TIS gives. I also prefer tuning that I can change on the fly. And some times, especially on bass the mts gets in the way of the valve slides. There's a little extra weight in the slide, but modern designs largely equalize that, and I don't think the extra weight limits me in any way.

There's a lot of prejudice against TIS because of some older clunky and heavier designs. ,You just have to play some and make up your own mind. Listen for the sound and the ease of tuning even while playing.

[Jbklyn]

Thank you all for these very helpful responses!
I am mostly intrigued about what TIS can do in regards to the sound. Your answers give much food for thought!

All the best,

Jon

[Finetales]

I do really like the Greenhoe TIS large bores, but I like the Greenhoe TIB large bores just as much. So I'd probably end up with the TIB just for slide weight if I bought one. Same with the basses.

[harrisonreed]

The question you need to ask yourself is this:

Does my tuning slide really have any variation beyond a few mm from day to day, in regards to where I tune it?

Followed by:

Do I pull my tuning slide more than 1" out?

If the answer to both of those is "No", the tuning mechanism is essentially completely dead weight if it's TIS, or it's a "flaw" in the design if it's TIB.

If the answer to either one is "yes", then the benefits of the tuning mechanism will outweigh the cons, and the TIS might be even better if the weight doesn't bother you, especially if you usually pull your tuning slide out miles and miles to play in tune. They play smoother and usually have better aligned partials.

[sf105]

The question you need to ask yourself is this:

Does my tuning slide really have any variation beyond a few mm from day to day, in regards to where I tune it?

Followed by:

Do I pull my tuning slide more than 1" out?

If the answer to both of those is "No", the tuning mechanism is essentially completely dead weight if it's TIS, or it's a "flaw" in the design if it's TIB.

I'm having quite a good experience with a 70H bell and 72H slide (accident of history). It's my lightest horn.

[hyperbolica]

... the tuning mechanism is essentially completely dead weight if it's TIS, or it's a "flaw" in the design if it's TIB.

This would be true if the taper of the main bell crook didn't matter. Getting the constant taper through the bell section is the reason for TIS in the first place.

[harrisonreed]

... the tuning mechanism is essentially completely dead weight if it's TIS, or it's a "flaw" in the design if it's TIB.

This would be true if the taper of the main bell crook didn't matter. Getting the constant taper through the bell section is the reason for TIS in the first place.

Yep. I definitely hit on that point in my post prior to the one you quoted -- I'm a fan of those TIS bells, and it's why I consider the TIB to be "flawed" design (even though all my horns have one). Like sf105 has done, they have the constant taper 70H mated to a non-TIS slide.

I was just making the point that if you don't really move your tuning slide day to day and it's less than an inch pulled, you don't really need one 99% of the time and it is dead weight (or a "flaw" if it's TIB). I was kind of sad with the Shires alto, because even with the TIS completely closed it played a bit flat, although the partials were amazing.

[Schultz]

I have 4 TIS trombones. And one of them is a large bore tenor. It's my preferred choice.
I have a GH original custom bass and a GH original custom large tenor, and an M&W middle bore tenor and an M&W bass.
They would all be described as in the "Conn" style, so red brass bells. The heavier slide i think gives a more compact sound, but combined with the lighter red bells, you get a sound that is full of life and colour, but doesn't break up in the louder dynamics. I admit they aren't the horns for everyone, but they work amazingly well for the type of work i do, which is mostly musical theatre, and commercial work.
But i've played the M&W bass in performances of Beethoven 5 & 9 recently and it worked very well, and blended beautifully.

[Jbklyn]

This is all very interesting!

So, some players actually combine the”TIS” bell with regular slides, for “TIH” (pace Harrison). I wonder if it would be a worthwhile experiment to adapt one of the old Conn slides that has a spring in first position with a “TIS” bell, in order to have just a little more leeway for one’s TIH?

Again, thank you everyone for your thoughts!

Jon

[Bassbone11]

do we think part of the reason people stay away is because of the weight? Has anyone looked into carbon fiber TIS slides? I imagine something similar to the TromboneLAB slides would be a possible end result.

[timothy42b]

The question you need to ask yourself is this:

Does my tuning slide really have any variation beyond a few mm from day to day, in regards to where I tune it?

Followed by:

Do I pull my tuning slide more than 1" out?

If the answer to both of those is "No", the tuning mechanism is essentially completely dead weight if it's TIS, or it's a "flaw" in the design if it's TIB.

If the answer to either one is "yes", then the benefits of the tuning mechanism will outweigh the cons, and the TIS might be even better if the weight doesn't bother you, especially if you usually pull your tuning slide out miles and miles to play in tune. They play smoother and usually have better aligned partials.

I'm not likely to play one, but I'm curious.

Given a TIS, is there significant difference between a Tuning Slide Bell pushed all the way closed, and a non tuning bell with constant expansion with no tuning slide at all?

The slide will be heavy. The bell section should be somewhat lighter, given no tuning slide. (a trigger attachment, though......)

[harrisonreed]

Given a TIS, is there significant difference between a Tuning Slide Bell pushed all the way closed, and a non tuning bell with constant expansion with no tuning slide at all?

The slide will be heavy. The bell section should be somewhat lighter, given no tuning slide. (a trigger attachment, though......)

Yep a TIB bell, even pushed in all the way, plays different from a constant taper bell. That's why fans of TIS love them.

[sf105]

do we think part of the reason people stay away is because of the weight? Has anyone looked into carbon fiber TIS slides? I imagine something similar to the TromboneLAB slides would be a possible end result.

It would be an interesting experiment. I wonder, though, if some of the tone colour comes from the heavier slide. Apparently, the players who convinced Conn to drop the Opera Wheel from the production 62H then tried to get them to put it back.

S

[elmsandr]

do we think part of the reason people stay away is because of the weight? Has anyone looked into carbon fiber TIS slides? I imagine something similar to the TromboneLAB slides would be a possible end result.

It would be an interesting experiment. I wonder, though, if some of the tone colour comes from the heavier slide. Apparently, the players who convinced Conn to drop the Opera Wheel from the production 62H then tried to get them to put it back.

S

I, for one useless amateur opinion, prefer the sound of a heavier slide and a lighter bell.

Response, too. I chip notes all over the place on slides without oversleeves. Don’t have this problem as much with the carbon fiber slide; but sound wise it is clearly not the same. It is fine for the situations I use it in, but I would extra not win any auditions with that as my only slide.

Cheers,
Andy

[hyperbolica]

I, for one useless amateur opinion, prefer the sound of a heavier slide and a lighter bell.

Totally with you on this. This is kind of the assumed configuration for most Conns. A lot of people tend to have this knee-jerk reaction against "heavy slides", but it really isn't a detriment to playing unless you're doing crazy bebop, which i'm not doing, and I'd be willing to guess that most of us here really aren't doing.

The most time I've spent with TIS was my Kanstul 1662i (~12 years), which had a velvety sound that was attributed to the TIS and constant bell taper. The slide was minimally heavier than a standard slide. I really liked having the tuning in the slide. I would sometimes actually move the tuning while playing. I think it works a lot better than bell tuning as well.

TIS also allows for a longer slide, which is never a bad thing, especially on a bass (most especially on a single valve bass).

I also had TIS 70h for a while, and we all know that horn sound is legendary. Then I had an Olds bass with great sound as well, but the slide on that really was annoyingly heavy.

Some horns have the bell crook made in a single piece along with the rest of the bell stem through to the flare. Some just have a regular length bell with a ferrule and then a tuning slide type crook soldered on. The one piece design is much sleeker, but harder to repair if you get a dent.

If I could do it easily and without huge extra expense, I would have all of my horns set up as TIS, except maybe the smallest bores. I play TIB mostly because that's what's available, and the old 42h Conns are hard to find.

[harrisonreed]

The heavy slide is an issue for me for legato, TBH.

[Bassbone11]

I have never had a TIS horn and only tried them at ITF in socal a while back and didn't notice too much of a slide issue (used to basses so not sure if that influences my being used to heavy slides). it seems to me, replacing the outers below the tuning section would be the easiest solution without losing too much weight. someone with more money than me needs to take a break from their M&W and tell us how it goes!

[hornbuilder]

Length of the handslide has nothing to do with the instrument being TIS or TIB. It comes down the the designer making a conscious decision of proportioning the instrument to have a long enough handslide for a low C. Or not. The 72H has the longest handslide of any standard production instrument, and some 70H examples have short handslides where a low C is really not feasible. Infact, most TIS slides "reduce" the effective available length of the slide as soon as you move the tuning mechanism to lower the overall pitch

[Jbklyn]

It’s interesting to hear so many takes on TIS, thank you all.

In recognition of Matthew Walker’s reply above, I’ll proudly report here that I’m on the waitlist for a custom M & W tenor with TIS. Can’t wait!

[timothy42b]

Thinking out loud.

At the other end, on an alto we could get rid of the water valve. Then you can have constant bore bell and no disturbance downstream. An alto slide is short enough most people can just push it off to dump water.