Benge 175F Production quality defects

[Tubaaiyue]

I found new benge 175F

[Burgerbob]

Yes.

[JohnL]

Proceed with caution. There's a reason it's never been used. It could be that it just got pushed into a corner and forgotten . OTOH, it may have had some issue that caused people not to buy it, or to buy it and never play it.

[Posaunus]

Caveat emptor

[chromebone]

What are the circumstances of this situation? Is it an instrument that was in the back of a music store for 30 years? The estate of someone who never got around to playing it?
Assuming you are able to verify its condition, that is a good price.

[Oslide]

In 2019, by chance I dug up a straight Benge 175 online at a music shop in Hongkong. It was described as NOS (New Old Stock). I got it for HK$6,000 (reduced from HK$13,000), plus a very substantial fee for handling and transportation.

When it arrived it really looked like new and sounded great, but immediately it showed that the distance between bell rim and slide (ca. 0.7 inch) was uncomfortably close. Moreover there was a clear slide problem between 2nd and 3rd position.

To have these flaws corrected turned out to be more difficult and expensive than I expected. Today, however, I can say this really is a great horn well worth the efforts taken!

I'm pretty sure these flaws were the reason the horn was still around after a long time (serial number 159nnn points to 1986?). As others have cautioned before, you could be in for surprises.

Good luck!

[Tubaaiyue]

What are the circumstances of this situation? Is it an instrument that was in the back of a music store for 30 years? The estate of someone who never got around to playing it?
Assuming you are able to verify its condition, that is a good price.

Yes, it's in the music store, benge 175F

[Tubaaiyue]

.

[Tubaaiyue]

This is a trombone produced in the 1990s. Was the quality of King factory's products stable during this period

[Posaunus]

Do you know the serial number?

[Tubaaiyue]

Do you know the serial number?

I'm not sure at the moment. I'll go and ask about it this afternoon. The store previously told me that this is a trombone produced in the 1990s

[LeTromboniste]

Do you know the serial number?

I'm not sure at the moment. I'll go and ask about it this afternoon. The store previously told me that this is a trombone produced in the 1990s

Is that the one in Milan? I very strongly considered buying it in December.

[harrisonreed]

This is a trombone produced in the 1990s. Was the quality of King factory's products stable during this period

King = generally good to really good, at all times
Benge = generally really good, at all times

[Posaunus]

Benge trombone production in the 1980s - ~2005 (in the King factory in Eastlake, Ohio) was generally very good.
No factory problems that I know of during that time period.
I've played a few Benge trombones (but not a 175F). - they were all fine instruments.

[Posaunus]

Benge trombone production in the mid-1980s to ~2005 (in the King factory in Eastlake, Ohio) was generally very good.
No factory problems that I know of during that time period.
I've played a few Benge trombones (but not a 175F) - they were all fine instruments.

[Tubaaiyue]

Ok！thank you all for your messages. I have seen all of them, Thank you everybody

[Tubaaiyue]

Is the Benge 6 1/2 mouthpiece a copy of the Bach 6 1/2? This new trombone comes with a complimentary Benge mouthpiece

[Posaunus]

Is the Benge 6 1/2 mouthpiece a copy of the Bach 6 1/2? This new trombone comes with a complimentary Benge mouthpiece

The Benge mouthpiece is probably their (King's) attempt to copy a Bach mouthpiece.
But which one? Bach lists three 6½ mouthpieces: 6½A, 6½AM, and 6½AL. They are all different.
[Not to mention the rather wide variation in "authentic" Bach mouthpieces.]

I would guess a 6½AM or 6½AL size would work best with a Benge 175F trombone.

Try the mouthpiece that's shipped with your "new" trombone. If you don't like it, there are countless alternatives.  

[JohnL]

I suspect it's a Benge 6 1/2 AL-S. I seem to recall hearing that they were basically a Benge rendition of a Bach 6½AL.

There was also a Benge 6 1/2 AL-L, which I think was Benge's version of a Bach large-shank 6½A (i.e., it had a standard large shank throat and backbore rather than have the same throat and backbore as its small-shank stablemate).

[Tubaaiyue]

.

[Tubaaiyue]

In 2019, by chance I dug up a straight Benge 175 online at a music shop in Hongkong. It was described as NOS (New Old Stock). I got it for HK$6,000 (reduced from HK$13,000), plus a very substantial fee for handling and transportation.

When it arrived it really looked like new and sounded great, but immediately it showed that the distance between bell rim and slide (ca. 0.7 inch) was uncomfortably close. Moreover there was a clear slide problem between 2nd and 3rd position.

To have these flaws corrected turned out to be more difficult and expensive than I expected. Today, however, I can say this really is a great horn well worth the efforts taken!

I'm pretty sure these flaws were the reason the horn was still around after a long time (serial number 159nnn points to 1986?). As others have cautioned before, you could be in for surprises.

Good luck!

Just like you trombone, my 175 slide is also very close to the Bell distance, and I also encountered the problem of slow slide...

[AtomicClock]

slow slide? slide-to-bell distance too small? Sounds like someone knocked it and its stand over. Happened to my 42. Sigh.

[hyperbolica]

The bell-to-slide-gap on mine is 1.023". This is after having been rebuilt by Scott Sweeney, so I'm not sure that's factory spec, but it's comfortable to play at that distance.

The mouthpiece that I use is a DE xt104 D+ 4. Bach 6 1/2 is roughly a C or D cup in the DE universe. I can say it seems to like smaller rather than larger mouthpieces. The closest off-the-shelf mouthpiece to that would be a Conn 4CL, or maybe a Schilke 52 according to Doug's 25 year old chart. So my DE has a significantly bigger inside diameter, but a similar depth.

The sound of the horn has been described by my quartet-mates as rather "tenory", meaning kind of bright.

Just buy the horn and deal with any shortcomings later. They are rare enough and unique enough that dealing with issues should be minor in comparison to owning one of these. It is different from a 3b+. I find the 3b family to have some unpleasant overtones, and the Benge seems to sort those out, probably the difference being the bell treatment. Mine was gone over by Sweeney, so it might not be a great example of the breed, but maybe a good example of what they are capable of.

[Tubaaiyue]

I discovered something hilarious a few minutes ago. The slide on this trombone seems to be installed upside down. If I put the slide on upside down, the effect is 8/10. If I put the slide on right side up, the effect is only 6/10，Could it be that there are solder residues inside this brand new slide? （Today is the first time I have used this trombone）

[Tubaaiyue]

It's really infuriating to encounter such quality issues

[Tubaaiyue]

Do you know the serial number?

285XXX

[Posaunus]

I discovered something hilarious a few minutes ago. The slide on this trombone seems to be installed upside down. If I put the slide on upside down, the effect is 8/10. If I put the slide on right side up, the effect is only 6/10，Could it be that there are solder residues inside this brand new slide? （Today is the first time I have used this trombone）

Of course you can't return this "new" (20+ -year-old) trombone to the factory to have the slide issues addressed.
[Probably not solder residue or upside-down assembly.]
You need a knowledgeable, competent trombone repair tech. Good luck!

[Tubaaiyue]

I discovered something hilarious a few minutes ago. The slide on this trombone seems to be installed upside down. If I put the slide on upside down, the effect is 8/10. If I put the slide on right side up, the effect is only 6/10，Could it be that there are solder residues inside this brand new slide? （Today is the first time I have used this trombone）

Of course you can't return this "new" (20+ -year-old) trombone to the factory to have the slide issues addressed.
[Probably not solder residue or upside-down assembly.]
You need a knowledgeable, competent trombone repair tech. Good luck!

You are right. Thank you, Posaunes

[Oslide]

Just like you trombone, my 175 slide is also very close to the Bell distance, and I also encountered the problem of slow slide...

...You need a knowledgeable, competent trombone repair tech. Good luck!

I empathize with you...

Follow Posaunus' advice and you will get a great trombone.

[Doldom]

Benge bones are originally have small bell to slide distance.
My 175 has like 0.94 inch distance, and 190 is also not different and has like just an 1 inch distance.
The slow slide, maybe it's not a quality defects. All the horn might need is just a chemical and ultrasound bath from a competent trombone repair tech.

[tbonesullivan]

The slow slide, maybe it's not a quality defects. All the horn might need is just a chemical and ultrasound bath from a competent trombone repair tech.

THIS. If that truly is one that has been "sitting around" for at least two decades, that's plenty of time for stuff to happen to it, like oxides building up inside. A good chem clean and a good tech should have it going great.

[chromebone]

I don’t have a 175, but I have a few 190’s. The bell to slide distance is closer on the earlier production ones than the later production example. I think it was just the way they made the earlier versions. Benges were probably the best out-of-the-case horn in terms of quality at the time of their introduction.

The only quality issue with Benges that I’ve encountered was sometimes the silver soldered joint where the cross brace is connected to the slide receiver would separate, requiring the receiver to be removed from the horn due to the higher heat required to braze the silver to reattach it.

[Tubaaiyue]

What slide oil does everyone use for their trombone? I'm using Side O Mix

[Tubaaiyue]

Maybe my oil isn't suitable for Benge trombone

[Posaunus]

SlideOMix and SlideOMix "Rapid Comfort" are great for trombones like the Benge 175 - as is Yamaha Slide Lubricant.
Your slide doesn't need a better lubricant - just attention from a qualifed trombone technician.

[chromebone]

I use Yamaha slide lubricant on mine, very sparingly, and it works great. Benge slides are King slides, which means they have pretty close tolerances.