Rim & Mouthpiece Buzzing (2026)

[LeTromboniste]

Surely you agree that your air speed and lip tension (for lack of a better term) have to be a certain way for the right note to come out on the horn, no? Otherwise you'd only have one note per position. What I think is that it's not a binary between either far enough that the wrong note comes out, or close enough that the right note comes out. I believe it's a whole spectrum. You get far enough on that spectrum and the wrong note comes out. You get close enough and the right one comes out. But at one end of the spectrum, there is an optimal airspeed and overall embouchure for any given note at any given dynamic and for any given desired tone colour, that will give you the result you want with the least effort and the most reliability. (...)And getting that optimal setting requires us to really follow the musical line attentively and with great focus in our mind's ear and that our technique follows that.

Yes, I 100% agree, and in my mind this is describing Set->Slot->Adjust, which is what I'm now certain you do, just like probably nearly every great brass musician does (though they may not realize it). The act of setting the tongue shape, the corners, the mouthpiece placement, and the air is everything. The "buzz" isn't involved in this, and it sounds like you and I are in agreement -- the "buzz" is a result of this "set" interacting with the horn and the "buzz" comes out of that, and you can choose to fall into the slot or fight it. A synergy, not a cause and effect.

But as you were describing what you do and what can go wrong you say:

Ultimately that's not a problem with the buzz itself, on a mechanical level of sound production, but a problem of imprecision in the connection between our mental "ear" and the mechanics of the buzz, that is partially (and sometimes quite well) hidden by the horn.

Which is describing what happens when you do not slot correctly. What this is is that the hypothetical 'you' didn't set properly, and you are out of the slot. And the horn absolutely will hide that if you're close. The word "buzz" has no place in what you're describing except to highlight that if you think about "controlling the mechanics of the buzz" what you're really doing is leaving the slot. You either fall into the slot and the synergy or you "buzz" and fight it.

I think the reason I keep coming back to it is that language is important, and using language or terms that don't describe what is actually happening will cause confusion for students. Talking about buzzing to describe anything in the mechanics of playing brass, especially with it generally understood that you can "buzz" the mouthpiece, implies cause and effect. But I believe that it's not that the "buzz is imprecise" or the "slide is imprecise", it's that you're fighting the slot and the slide is in the wrong place. Those might actually mean the same thing. But the descriptive language is very different and could possibly lead students down very different paths in their approach to playing.

It's not just (or even mostly) about the buzz itself, it's the tongue arch, the size and shape of the oral cavity, the airflow up from the lungs, how I tune the resonance inside my body to the resonance of the instrument. Mouthpiece buzzing helps me make sure I'm in this mindset of always closely following the musical line with my mind's ear and with my overall technique. If I'm buzzing a phrase on the mouthpiece and every note is as written except a couple that are wrong notes, that means I'm either audiating it wrong, or my technique is not following my mind. Either way, that means my focus is at some level not consistent, and things get sloppy.

Again it's not about what my lips actually do when I'm buzzing. It's not the same as when playing, but that's not the point of it. It's about building a mindset of being precise in every aspect. Including phrasing and shaping too.

This brings it back around to what I was saying about buzzing being a potentially useful practice as a way to mentally focus prior to performing a task. And you're saying it can help your mind "hear" the pitches, like singing might. I can buy that. I can totally get that. I do not believe the vast majority of buzzing advocates think of buzzing that way. They seem to see it as a more pure form of sound production and strength building exercise that directly translates to what sound will come out of their trombone.

Yeah I'm with you on most of what you just wrote. For me it definitely is more of a mental thing than a question or pure sound production, and definitely not about strength building (I'm not so convinced that the latter are universal among people who advocate buzzing though). Perhaps you're right that I should use a different term than "buzzing" in the explanation of my approach. But one thing is I find it needlessly confusing to use a different term when what I then use as a practice tool is mouthpiece buzzing. Also I like using it almost because I mean it differently: I don't want students to think of the "buzz" as just the lips vibrating, I want them to think of it as a complete system that includes the airflow itself, all the ways in which we can manipulate the airspeed, and all we can do to "tune" the resonance. Basically all of the things we do have to do when playing.

And I also don't fully agree on the idea of just letting the horn dictate things and take care of slotting completely. I don't agree that playing off-center necessarily comes from "forcing" the buzz away from where the instrument wants it to lock. I think the "slot" is not a single point, it has a certain width, different on different notes, and different on different instruments, and that merely letting the horn dictate the slotting is not enough to always be in the optimal spot. The horn will slot, but it won't bring you to be exactly in the center either. There's room within the slot for you to manipulate things. And even if it did, wouldn't it still be more efficient to be in the center on your own instead of relying on something external to you? From experiencing it often enough in my own playing and in others', including people who never buzz, I'm convinced that there is another extreme in the approach you advocate for, that one can become overly reliant on the horn dictating the slotting, and that comes with the risk of becoming disengaged from the sound production and failing to implement all the small details involved in getting that consistent optimal setting.

If we ever meet, you'll have to try playing by D bass sackbut, and I think you'd see what I'm talking about. The slots are incredibly wide, and the instrument will not force you to play in any remotely well-defined center by just being "set" and blowing into it. If you just rely on the horn to dictate the slotting, you'll just have a big woofy sound with no core and no clarity, and articulations that roll on you. You have to do everything internally and find exactly the right setting for each note, and be constantly super aware and focused, otherwise you're toast. It's exponentially harder to control than any modern trombone, and it really shows you the limits of letting the horn slot for you.

[harrisonreed]

Maximilien, you make a great point....!

I have played instruments with very "wide" slots before and have definitely chosen equipment that leans towards a very narrow, very deep slot. To the point of adding weight, etc. My setup allows for a bit of lip vibrato and that's about it.

I can see the allure of such a "wide" setup, and maybe I need to think about that factor a bit more. Those horns I've tried certainly do have a center to the slot ... But you do get to push them around a lot more. I'm assuming that you get that huge pallette on the sackbuts because of they mostly slot like that?

[LeTromboniste]

Maximilien, you make a great point....!

I have played instruments with very "wide" slots before and have definitely chosen equipment that leans towards a very narrow, very deep slot. To the point of adding weight, etc. My setup allows for a bit of lip vibrato and that's about it.

I can see the allure of such a "wide" setup, and maybe I need to think about that factor a bit more. Those horns I've tried certainly do have a center to the slot ... But you do get to push them around a lot more. I'm assuming that you get that huge pallette on the sackbuts because of they mostly slot like that?

Yup, wide slots (there's no lead pipe! Plus the sharp-edged throat in the mouthpiece). Much less stability, but accordingly also much more flexibility to colour the sound, more responsivity to articulations. It's a trade-off, but it does require more conscious work to slot things consistently, especially on bass. With most modern trombones the idea of relying on the instrument to slot on its own might work better, but now that I've had to develop that mindset I presented above, I also can now play a modern instrument much better and with more consistency and control than I ever could before despite basically not having practiced on modern trombone for about a decade. I was definitely over-relying on the horn before, is one of the big realizations I've had. I've heard the same observation from colleagues and students who play both, and who say their playing on modern gained a lot of efficiency from needing to be this much more aware and deliberate about everything on sackbut. And I've also observed the same in a couple modern trombone players I've known, who don't play sackbut, where they greatly improved the consistency of their tone and articulation when they became aware that they were not "following the line" properly. It's really clear to me that there's something to it and that while the horn to some extent "buzzes you" like you say, it is not so black and white.

[timothy42b]

What I'm describing is not about the physics of resonance, but the neurophysiology of something that is perceived. Perhaps by a population of one, I've never seen this discussed.

No I know exactly what you're talking about. You are describing exactly what it feels like to learn that the horn is what dictates what your lips are doing to a great extent. Not 100%, because, as you describe, you *can* fight it.

Yes.

If we feed a frequency into a system, we see response increasing as we get near a resonance.

If we were graphing it, we would put frequency on the X and response on the Y axis, with response being Ao/Ai (Amplitude out over amplitude in.) Below resonance that number will be 1 - same volume out as in. Near resonance it goes way up.

On trombone two other things happen, one obvious and one maybe not.

As we get close to resonance, the pressure waves returning from the bell help the lips open and close at the right time. Ai may get larger, as well as Ao/Ai.

But a second thing happens that can't happen when feeding in a frequency mechanically. The human behind the mouthpiece feels the pull of the slot. It's a brain function, not physics.

Because it's a brain function we can fight it, as you say; but that's mentally uncomfortable. Probably that's the reason learning false tones is hard. It's a brain problem more than a slot problem.

[harrisonreed]

But a second thing happens that can't happen when feeding in a frequency mechanically. The human behind the mouthpiece feels the pull of the slot. It's a brain function, not physics.

Because it's a brain function we can fight it, as you say; but that's mentally uncomfortable. Probably that's the reason learning false tones is hard. It's a brain problem more than a slot problem.

You say it like falling into the slot is a bad thing. Playing out of the slot, except intentionally, is a pretty devastating thing. Tone and endurance are shot by it. Buzzing without the horn is playing out of the slot. Even if the pitch and buzz are exactly in tune, when you add the horn, you will not be in the slot. I think beginners and new college students are most susceptible to the issues of playing out of the slot, and you see it in masterclasses from time to time, especially with students short changing 5th position or 6th position and the tone going wonky and the intonation being "ehhhh". They're not in the slot and lipping the pitch. They're doing the same thing in the first four positions too, but because they play there 95% of the time they are much better at lipping the pitches in their predetermined slide positions.

This is why I have said all the things I've said in this thread - and many others going all the way back almost 20 years to the old The Trombone Forum with Geezer, etc. I brought up the concept of Type One vs Type Two players when I was about 19 years old. I can't remember which was which, but it was basically "sound produced mostly at the face" vs "sound produced mostly by the horn". Nearly everyone dismissed what I was saying. Over a decade later I read in Ian Bousfield's book about his concept of playing with a "head voice" vs a "chest voice" and it is the exact same concept. He also has diagrams showing what is happening to the air after it compresses and starts vibrating in the horn, and also what happens when your sound bounces off the wall in a small practice room and phase cancels the standing wave in the horn. Stuff that I feel like is absolutely critical to get our heads around in order to get to the next level of our musicianship, wherever we are at with it.

[Wilktone]

Harrison, while I tend to agree with your conclusions, I don't find your reasoning compelling. Yes, buzzing is different from playing the instrument but it's that difference that advocates want to exploit. It doesn't have to do with "playing out of the slot" because there is essentially no slot to play out of when buzzing. The gist of the argument pro-buzzing is that you're, at the very least, training your awareness of how to align ear, embouchure, air, and tongue to the precise pitch you want to play. Transferring that awareness to the instrument helps the player to play in the slot even better.

Or at least that's the basic idea. Personally, I feel that what a lot of players end up doing is going for a tone that has focus on the mouthpiece, but when transferred to the instrument ends up with the results that you're warning about. It has less to do with the overtone series and aligning our body to play with it and more to do with the mouthpiece encouraging a different lip position to go after a focused sound on the mouthpiece alone. Players who are aware of their playing mechanics can mitigate this, but then it becomes a question of whether or not the extra effort it takes to mouthpiece buzz as closely as possible to playing the instrument is worth it.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

Harrison, while I tend to agree with your conclusions, I don't find your reasoning compelling. Yes, buzzing is different from playing the instrument but it's that difference that advocates want to exploit.

Looking back on the two "Why I buzz" videos from big name players/teachers posted here, they appear to be advocating the exact opposite of this statement. Along the lines of the late great Sam Burtis demonstrations of free-buzzing to rim buzzing to mouthpiece buzzing to playing the trombone (amazing that he could do that and transition so smoothly), and also what Chris Stearn was saying earlier in the thread along the same lines. Again, I haven't seen Chris Stearn do this but I believe him and I am sure it's as smooth as glass. I'd "bet on it" as Sam would say. For such an advanced technique, I'd actually buy that being able to do that helps do anything on the trombone, because it's like practicing tongue twisters, or possibly that they are able to do that because they are so well practiced on the trombone. But Sam I believe was strongly implying cause and effect, and that free-buzzing is the mechanism that produces the sound. I argued with him about this, saying that he was just really good at falling into the slot and was actually adjusting away from the "buzz" as soon as the horn came into the equation, but of course he denied it and said it was exactly the same. Ironically I was with him 100% on his ideas about the mouth shape required for vocal overtones being related to sound production on the trombone, with a lot of people responding negatively to to that idea, but against him on the free-buzzing as a basis for sound idea, where he had support.

This is an incredible video of an incredible musician, completely worth watching, especially his thoughts on vocal overtones relating to the instrument tone (ie I believe he was talking about tongue shape). But you can clearly see the aperture, pucker, and the muscle around his lower chops change dramatically as he switches around, and the lower jaw muscles and corners change a lot going from free-buzzing to the horn. You know this, I know this. As he goes on you can see just how much switching around actually does "get in the way of the buzz", as he says:



So I do not believe that the statement in bold is actually the case most of the time. Sam certainly thought they were the same thing. Which leads to:

Personally, I feel that what a lot of players end up doing is going for a tone that has focus on the mouthpiece, but when transferred to the instrument ends up with the results that you're warning about.

100% . Students do not know why they are doing what they are doing. They just do it because they are told to. Some of these students, maybe the most impressionable ones, become teachers and the cycle continues. You've stated my stance more efficiently than I'm able to do myself!

[Nemo]

Harrison, while I tend to agree with your conclusions, I don't find your reasoning compelling. Yes, buzzing is different from playing the instrument but it's that difference that advocates want to exploit. It doesn't have to do with "playing out of the slot" because there is essentially no slot to play out of when buzzing. The gist of the argument pro-buzzing is that you're, at the very least, training your awareness of how to align ear, embouchure, air, and tongue to the precise pitch you want to play. Transferring that awareness to the instrument helps the player to play in the slot even better.

Dave

This is the primary reason I buzz. Your muscles and airstream and vowel will determine a pitch that your lips WANT (meaning the most efficient pitch for that setup) to vibrate at, and your slide position creates the series of pitches your horn WANTS to vibrate at. Buzzing away from the horn lets us know what it feels like to really be at maximum efficiency with the buzz, apart from the feeling of the horn pushing the buzz into a slot. Many many many people who buzz do it incorrectly because they are trying to play as if that resistance and guidance is there. The goal is to develop the airstream and face musculature to be as relaxed and fluid as possible, while also having precise mental control of the pitch that your lips will produce.

When you have fine control of your pitch without the guidance of the instrument, you can align your face's pitch with the instrument's pitch and achieve maximum resonance. When you don't have this alignment, some of the energy your air is providing is spent as feedback pushing your lips into the slot - but if your lips are already in the slot the instrument wants to resonate at, more energy can go into the sound coming out the bell. This means you can 1) play with a bigger/warmer/louder/whatever sound at your extremes, 2) play regular sounds with less effort/air consumption (and for longer without fatigue), and 3) play softly with a clear sound more easily, as the resonance is not impacted by a conflict between your lips and the instrument's desired pitch.

Arnold Jacobs taught this way, and it has worked wonders for reducing tension in my own playing and of my students. I have also had students (and a period in my own career) where buzzing was taken as the primary focus of playing - and without a model of what we're looking for when we buzz (which is not volume or pressure or any of that, but just resonance and efficiency), this led to increased tension and a disconnect between the player and the instrument.

[Bach5G]

Any thoughts on buzzing as a cool down?

[BrianJohnston]

Any thoughts on buzzing as a cool down?

Any low range buzzing or playing where your lips are fully vibrating is a good way to loosen up and get blood flowing equally everywhere. - good warm-down.

[BrianJohnston]

I believe the case for the free buzz is, it's different than the rim, or the mouthpiece, or the horn. If you have control on just your freebuzz, imagine the control you have with your instrument. DO NOT try to achieve the same feel the freebuzz gives you into your horn, but use the skills created on the freebuzz to guide your skills on the horn. Same can be said for rim buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing.

[LeTromboniste]

Harrison, while I tend to agree with your conclusions, I don't find your reasoning compelling. Yes, buzzing is different from playing the instrument but it's that difference that advocates want to exploit. It doesn't have to do with "playing out of the slot" because there is essentially no slot to play out of when buzzing. The gist of the argument pro-buzzing is that you're, at the very least, training your awareness of how to align ear, embouchure, air, and tongue to the precise pitch you want to play. Transferring that awareness to the instrument helps the player to play in the slot even better.

Dave

This is the primary reason I buzz. Your muscles and airstream and vowel will determine a pitch that your lips WANT (meaning the most efficient pitch for that setup) to vibrate at, and your slide position creates the series of pitches your horn WANTS to vibrate at. Buzzing away from the horn lets us know what it feels like to really be at maximum efficiency with the buzz, apart from the feeling of the horn pushing the buzz into a slot. Many many many people who buzz do it incorrectly because they are trying to play as if that resistance and guidance is there. The goal is to develop the airstream and face musculature to be as relaxed and fluid as possible, while also having precise mental control of the pitch that your lips will produce.

When you have fine control of your pitch without the guidance of the instrument, you can align your face's pitch with the instrument's pitch and achieve maximum resonance. When you don't have this alignment, some of the energy your air is providing is spent as feedback pushing your lips into the slot - but if your lips are already in the slot the instrument wants to resonate at, more energy can go into the sound coming out the bell. This means you can 1) play with a bigger/warmer/louder/whatever sound at your extremes, 2) play regular sounds with less effort/air consumption (and for longer without fatigue), and 3) play softly with a clear sound more easily, as the resonance is not impacted by a conflict between your lips and the instrument's desired pitch.

Arnold Jacobs taught this way, and it has worked wonders for reducing tension in my own playing and of my students. I have also had students (and a period in my own career) where buzzing was taken as the primary focus of playing - and without a model of what we're looking for when we buzz (which is not volume or pressure or any of that, but just resonance and efficiency), this led to increased tension and a disconnect between the player and the instrument.

Yuo that's exactly where I'm at!

[LeTromboniste]

Ironically I was with him 100% on his ideas about the mouth shape required for vocal overtones being related to sound production on the trombone, with a lot of people responding negatively to to that idea, but against him on the free-buzzing as a basis for sound idea, where he had support.

This is an incredible video of an incredible musician, completely worth watching, especially his thoughts on vocal overtones relating to the instrument tone (ie I believe he was talking about tongue shape).

This is precisely where I think mouthpiece buzzing can help. It's entirely possible to play trombone quite well without implementing these ideas of "vocal" overtones and mouth shape, but playing is more efficient when you do. I subscribe 100% to that idea, and the idea of thinking in terms of vocal resonance placement is absolutely central in both my playing and my teaching. It's possible to teach that without every doing any mouthpiece buzzing, but nonetheless I find mouthpiece buzzing can be a powerful tool to help develop that habit, and to spot check if you're failing to do it at times, because you immediately feel and hear it if you don't when mouthpiece buzzing (which you might not feel or hear on the horn, especially when you have yet to fully assimilate these concept in your playing).

[harrisonreed]

It's refreshing that these different reasons and takes on buzzing are coming up now. This hasn't been discussed like this here before. Where was all this over the last 20 years?

The discussion has seriously challenged some of my thinking. No, I'm not going to start buzzing, but Max's comment about instruments with wide slots and the last few comments are things I'm going to think on.

[Wilktone]

Wilktone wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2026 1:53 pm
Personally, I feel that what a lot of players end up doing is going for a tone that has focus on the mouthpiece, but when transferred to the instrument ends up with the results that you're warning about.
100% . Students do not know why they are doing what they are doing. They just do it because they are told to. Some of these students, maybe the most impressionable ones, become teachers and the cycle continues. You've stated my stance more efficiently than I'm able to do myself!

I'm glad we aligned in this idea here. For clarity, I'm actually on your side and feel a little weird coming down on the side of mouthpiece buzzing, since I tend to discourage it these days.

Wilktone wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2026 1:53 pm
Harrison, while I tend to agree with your conclusions, I don't find your reasoning compelling. Yes, buzzing is different from playing the instrument but it's that difference that advocates want to exploit.
Looking back on the two "Why I buzz" videos from big name players/teachers posted here, they appear to be advocating the exact opposite of this statement.

Sometimes we come to a conclusion for the wrong reason. If the end result is a net positive, I think about the proverbial broken clock being right twice a day. I don't believe that *all* advocates for mouthpiece buzzing are using the same reasoning I offered, but I feel that this is the basis for why mouthpiece buzzing works (or at least seems to).

Robert Sheldrake, in the BTS video, describes the aperture as not coming together and closing while playing ("or at least as what that feels like.") At least on that post on the BTS he mentions he's describing a playing sensation, but unless I missed it on his video he is trying to convince us the aperture stays open while playing. That is, of course, easily disproved by searching the internet for any of the myriad videos showing vibrating lips in slow motion through transparent mouthpieces. The lips definitely open and close while we play the instrument.

Whatever rational Sheldrake is using in his teaching and practice, it's probably fair to consider if the "why" of his explanation may make the "what" of his advice not particularly helpful. Maybe in this case his suggestions are sound, even if his reasoning isn't. Or maybe he's just describing his own playing sensations (conflating them with fact) and that your milage trying out those ideas may vary.

As far as Wendel's video, he describes it differently from I did, but I think he is basically using the same defense I described earlier. He demonstrates how he wants the pitch to be centered as he mouthpiece buzzes. He mentions that he uses mouthpiece buzzing to help work on passages where he's not landing in the slot.

Along the lines of the late great Sam Burtis demonstrations of free-buzzing to rim buzzing to mouthpiece buzzing to playing the trombone (amazing that he could do that and transition so smoothly), and also what Chris Stearn was saying earlier in the thread along the same lines.

First thing for us to understand is that Burtis was a Reinhardt IIIA/Elliott "very high placement" embouchure type, for sure. Many players belonging to this very common embouchure type can really benefit from buzzing into the instrument and such. Burtis was definitely an advocate for this sort of practice. Some players, such as myself, will find this sort of practice to work against them.

For such an advanced technique, I'd actually buy that being able to do that helps do anything on the trombone, because it's like practicing tongue twisters, or possibly that they are able to do that because they are so well practiced on the trombone.

I wouldn't probably describe free buzzing as a "tongue twister" sort of exercise, but that might be a decent enough analogy. For me, practicing free buzzing helps me train my mouth corners, and to a lesson extent I think, my chin to remain in the playing position that works for playing the instrument. My lip position is completely different from when I play, but I'm not free buzzing to reinforce that.

But Sam I believe was strongly implying cause and effect, and that free-buzzing is the mechanism that produces the sound.

I don't recall him ever implying that "free-buzzing" is what produces the sound, but I suspect he was at least aiming at the fact that the vibrating lips is what produces the sound on the trombone. He tended to combine objective descriptions with analogies and metaphors frequently.

I argued with him about this, saying that he was just really good at falling into the slot and was actually adjusting away from the "buzz" as soon as the horn came into the equation, but of course he denied it and said it was exactly the same.

When free buzzing into the instrument the reflection of the standing wave comes into play, so it has to be different. But for many IIIAs, the difference in the embouchure formation can be so minute it probably feels like nothing has changed. What I think is helpful here, for these players, is making it feel the same.

This is an incredible video of an incredible musician, completely worth watching, especially his thoughts on vocal overtones relating to the instrument tone (ie I believe he was talking about tongue shape).

I think this is another example of coming to the right conclusion for the wrong reasons. Yes, the tongue position is the major factor in overtone singing, but there's nothing inherently perfect about isolating a particular harmonic. Whistling is a similar demonstration about tongue position. What's not clear is whether or not the tongue position should be in a similar spot while playing the instrument. For me, it's not close. Maybe it was for Burtis. But I did notice watching Part 2 that every time he demonstrated singing and then immediately playing that he chips the first notes. Maybe he was putting the tongue in the right spot, but his embouchure wasn't set for playing, it was set for the singing.

When you have fine control of your pitch without the guidance of the instrument, you can align your face's pitch with the instrument's pitch and achieve maximum resonance. When you don't have this alignment, some of the energy your air is providing is spent as feedback pushing your lips into the slot - but if your lips are already in the slot the instrument wants to resonate at, more energy can go into the sound coming out the bell. This means you can 1) play with a bigger/warmer/louder/whatever sound at your extremes, 2) play regular sounds with less effort/air consumption (and for longer without fatigue), and 3) play softly with a clear sound more easily, as the resonance is not impacted by a conflict between your lips and the instrument's desired pitch.

Yes, I think this is the best argument for mouthpiece buzzing. However, I do think there are inherent risks when not practiced correctly. I prefer other ways to achieve the same end goal on the instrument that don't require the extra effort to avoid the risk.

Any thoughts on buzzing as a cool down?

If you only do it for a short while it probably wouldn't hurt you.

Any low range buzzing or playing where your lips are fully vibrating is a good way to loosen up and get blood flowing equally everywhere. - good warm-down.

Probably better to do that low range on the horn. I think you'd get as much benefit from playing some pedal tones for a couple of minutes or just doing the horse sneeze lip flap.

I believe the case for the free buzz is, it's different than the rim, or the mouthpiece, or the horn. If you have control on just your freebuzz, imagine the control you have with your instrument. DO NOT try to achieve the same feel the freebuzz gives you into your horn, but use the skills created on the freebuzz to guide your skills on the horn. Same can be said for rim buzzing, mouthpiece buzzing.

This is similar to how I feel about free buzzing. I mentioned above some details in what I'm working on with free buzzing, as well as some thoughts for other types of players.

It's refreshing that these different reasons and takes on buzzing are coming up now. This hasn't been discussed like this here before. Where was all this over the last 20 years?

I think these ideas were around and discussed, but we were younger and too full of spit and vinegar to have a polite conversation about it. Except for me. I'm still full of it.

[BrianJohnston]

Thanks for the replies Dave!

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but why is there so much backlashing against freebuzzing? I know Jacobs wasn't for it because supposedly you're training additional muscles that aren't used when the rim is there, but wouldn't freebuzzing just make you that much better at controlling your lips than rim buzzing? Do the additional muscles get in the way of the embouchure?

[harrisonreed]

Thanks for the replies Dave!

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but why is there so much backlashing against freebuzzing? I know Jacobs wasn't for it because supposedly you're training additional muscles that aren't used when the rim is there, but wouldn't freebuzzing just make you that much better at controlling your lips than rim buzzing? Do the additional muscles get in the way of the embouchure?

Using my analogy, free buzzing is like practicing a drum roll without the drum head or even the drum rim that holds the drumhead in place, or the drumstick in your hand. In this analogy, like, what are you training yourself to do?

I believe that you're absolutely introducing excessive tension into your embouchure to maintain a free-buzz, and you can see this in Sam's video. It is interesting that at the beginning of the video (before my timestamp) he begins by ripping a fat solo, and when he switches to small bore for a second he does the same. The guy could seriously play well. But when he does lip slurs after demonstrating free-buzzing to rim to mouthpiece to horn and back, those lip slurs are not smooth and he splits some notes, which is uncharacteristic of him. It might just be completely unrelated, but my first thought would be "well yeah, go easy on the guy - he's doing crazy stuff free-buzzing and then going straight back to lip slurs on his horn. Of course his chops will have to settle back in." Exactly.

[Wilktone]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but why is there so much backlashing against freebuzzing? I know Jacobs wasn't for it because supposedly you're training additional muscles that aren't used when the rim is there, but wouldn't freebuzzing just make you that much better at controlling your lips than rim buzzing? Do the additional muscles get in the way of the embouchure?

I think that's sort of the gist for a lot of the arguments against. The claim here is that when we free buzz we're forced to use different muscles or we're overtraining embouchure muscles. When the free buzzing embouchure is transferred to the instrument the resulting sound then is tight and pinched.

Of course, we know that many players free buzz and don't have the tight and pinched sound, so it is possible to avoid this drawback. Like mouthpiece buzzing, the question is whether or not the benefits we derive from the practice is worth the risk of getting "musclebound." Unlike mouthpiece buzzing, I personally find that it's easier to help the student free buzz with proper form and avoid the pitfalls from doing it wrong. We can watch a teacher free buzz with correct form and the teacher can watch the student's lips to offer feedback and corrections, whereas on the mouthpiece alone we can't really see if the student is too loose.

Using my analogy, free buzzing is like practicing a drum roll without the drum head or even the drum rim that holds the drumhead in place, or the drumstick in your hand. In this analogy, like, what are you training yourself to do?

I didn't quite follow your analogy earlier, so I'm not quite certain what you're getting at. Rather than using an analogy, let's think a bit about the specifics of how the embouchure is formed and interacts with the instrument, then consider the embouchure while free buzzing.

Our lips are elastic, to a degree, and utilizing particular muscles in the face will change the level of elasticity. When playing the instrument the lips get blown open and a puff of air goes into the mouthpiece and instrument. According to our embouchure firmness, the lips then return to their closed position after a certain amount of time and the cycle continues. On the instrument the reflection of the standing wave, along with some air pressure changes, interact with the lips and when aligned the lips and standing wave begin to work in tandem. The lips function as sort of a spring oscillator.

Getting the lips and standing wave to synchronize requires that the lips are firmed not too much, not too little, but right on the frequency that we want to play. Someone more versed in the acoustics of brass instrument may need to correct me, but I believe that this will require at least two cycles of closed to open. The first puff of air travels towards the bell, but until the second puff of air the standing wave isn't going to segment at the appropriate points to play the pitch we want. So when Burtis states that the buzz (not the free buzz) is what generates the sound, I think he was right. The instrument itself has no idea whether to set the standing wave to play a low Bb or a high Bb, the lips have to oscillate first. Changing to a different partial requires the lips to change the frequency of vibration before the standing wave segments properly to the desired note. This is similar to getting harmonics on a string instrument, you have to set your finger on the right place to get the string to separate the vibrations along the modes and get the harmonics, you can't just pluck the string and hope it will eventually get to the harmonic.

That's why I tend to avoid the "the instrument does most of the work" analogy. The lips tell the instrument what to do, then the instrument provides the standing wave reflection of energy that causes the instrument to slot on that pitch. When the lips aren't set at the correct frequency we can allow the instrument to slot for us, but unless the lips are adjusted properly we're working against the instrument slightly, which sounds less focused and takes more effort to play.

As an aside, I've found intentionally playing against the slot (e.g., bending the pitch up and down between partials) to be a valuable exercise for me and many students. It works the embouchure and helps build control and endurance, but it also helps to familiarize where the slot actually is and what it feels like to both play right in it and when it's off. One could argue that we're practicing playing wrong, but I've found that it actually helps me play in the slot even better.

Free buzzing is different from playing the instrument in a couple of meaningful ways. First, we don't have the standing wave reflection or the back pressure provided by the instrument. It also doesn't help reduce the vibrating surface of the lips with the mouthpiece rim. This means we don't have that additional help to keep the lips oscillating at the desired frequency, we have to do it completely with the body. Critics of free buzzing will cite this difference as why it's detrimental. I would argue that the difference is what makes free buzzing an effective exercise to train the musician to hold the mouth corners and chin in their proper formation for playing the instrument. Since free buzzing takes more muscular effort compared to playing the same pitch we're building muscular strength and control, but in a way that doesn't encourage excessive mouthpiece pressure, as we might get just by playing the instrument a lot.

Free buzzing, for me as an upstream embouchure type, is pretty much just about embouchure form in the corners and chin. For other players (e.g., Reinhardt IIIA embouchure type players) correct free buzzing form is much closer to playing embouchure form and these players can benefit from buzzing into the instrument practice. It helps those players both with the corners and chin and also playing with the correct lip position on the instrument. Practicing free buzzing at the correct frequency and then buzzing into the instrument helps train the lips to vibrate in the slot too.

I haven't really mentioned rim buzzing yet in this thread. I don't use it very often in my playing or teaching, except to demonstrate mouth corner inhalations so that students can see how I'm keeping my lip center lightly touching while inhaling. I did have a student who had some issues, including a bunched chin. Since he is a IIIA (he had been type switching too, but that's another issue) once he got a good enough form while free buzzing I had him try buzzing into the horn. As soon as the mouthpiece contacted his lips his chin would immediately bunch up. I don't remember why I tried this, but I asked him to free buzz into a cutaway mouthpiece I have and he was able to maintain good embouchure form while doing that. We used rim buzzing as an intermediate step for correct form between free buzzing and playing.

But when he does lip slurs after demonstrating free-buzzing to rim to mouthpiece to horn and back, those lip slurs are not smooth and he splits some notes, which is uncharacteristic of him.

Which video are you referring to here? In the two part video where he discusses his vocal overtones idea he doesn't buzz into the instrument and play lip slurs. He does sing and isolates a vocal harmonic and then plays lips slurs, but I'm not sure if the cracked notes are more related to his lips being held in the position to sing and not getting into position when the horn contacts his lips.

For what it's worth, I have worked with students and seen players who can free buzz into the instrument smoothly and not crack notes immediately after. I've poked around to see if I could find any of Burtis's videos that demonstrate this, but can't find any. Here's one I saw recently and thought of that has an excellent demonstration of buzzing in.

[harrisonreed]

Dave, to respond about the Sam Burtis video and the lip slurs, my point is that he starts the video by saying "I'm Sam Burtis and I can play the trombone", and proceeds to prove that with some fat licks.

He then does a bunch of free buzzing and rim buzzing and throat singing, and proceeds to play some not so great (initially) lip slurs. The first few are downright bad, tbh. It could just be from the stress of recording a video in one take ... But it's Sam Burtis. I think it's actually direct evidence of just how much tension doing those things (vocal overtones aside!) puts into your face. He has to back off and remember what playing feels like again before the lip slurs begin working again for him. I'm being unfair of course -- he's not here to defend himself. I hope it's clear to everyone that I really respect his playing and the "Zen" approach he took to diving into the inner workings of brass instruments. He went deep. He was deep. I think about what he talked about and wrote a lot.

To explain my analogy, when you do a drum roll, the drum has a predictably resistant drumhead to bounce off of. To maintain the drum roll, you hold the system (your hands and the drumsticks) in place with just a bit of energy input to keep the roll going. The drumhead is doing a ton of the work for you -- no strength required, just finesse. You don't train strength to hold a drumroll.

In this analogy, the drumhead is the air inside the trombone that your chops vibrate against. Your hands are your chops.

Buzzing of any sort is, at a minimum, taking the drumhead away but still trying to do a drum roll. There is nothing to "roll" against, no predictable resistance, so it is just you shaking your hands around, which it's horribly inefficient, takes a lot of energy, and takes induces tension (try it!). There's a lot of opinions I want to say about someone vigorously shaking their hands around over an empty drum, but I'll let the analogy speak for itself. No, it's not a perfect analogy, but there aren't any others that have been proposed.

And I suppose that free buzzing is taking the sticks away. Now your hands have nothing solid to even hold or form against.

I use this analogy because no drummer would practice a drum roll without something realistic to roll the sticks against.

Free buzzing is different from playing the instrument in a couple of meaningful ways. First, we don't have the standing wave reflection or the back pressure provided by the instrument. It also doesn't help reduce the vibrating surface of the lips with the mouthpiece rim. This means we don't have that additional help to keep the lips oscillating at the desired frequency, we have to do it completely with the body. Critics of free buzzing will cite this difference as why it's detrimental. I would argue that the difference is what makes free buzzing an effective exercise to train the musician to hold the mouth corners and chin in their proper formation for playing the instrument. Since free buzzing takes more muscular effort compared to playing the same pitch we're building muscular strength and control, but in a way that doesn't encourage excessive mouthpiece pressure, as we might get just by playing the instrument a lot.

I disagree. Again this idea comes back to building up muscle...

[Wilktone]

Harrison,

I really think that if you carefully watch Burtis’s videos again you’ll see his chipped notes occur following his harmonic singing. He is trying to go directly from the mouth position for singing to the playing embouchure, which is likely why he has to reset. I’m reasonably certain that if he were just demonstrating buzzing that the playing would have been cleaner.

Your drum analogy still doesn’t sit right for me. The sticks aren’t like the embouchure, the drum head is. The sticks are the air that set the drum head/lips to vibrating. Pitched drums alter the pitch through tension on the drum head, like the lip buzz. But that’s not analogous to playing the instrument because there’s not a standing wave with a drum ever, it’s always like free buzzing.

I don’t know what point you wanted to make with Phil Smith’s video, he doesn’t discuss free buzzing or embouchure strength at all. Without going so far as to diagnose any issues he had, I’ll note that he says he used to mouthpiece buzz daily for 1 1/2 hours!

So that I’m clear, is it your contention that we don’t need any embouchure strength and control to play?

Dave

[harrisonreed]

Harrison,

Your drum analogy still doesn’t sit right for me. The sticks aren’t like the embouchure, the drum head is. The sticks are the air that set the drum head/lips to vibrating. Pitched drums alter the pitch through tension on the drum head, like the lip buzz. But that’s not analogous to playing the instrument because there’s not a standing wave with a drum ever, it’s always like free buzzing.

I don’t know what point you wanted to make with Phil Smith’s video, he doesn’t discuss free buzzing or embouchure strength at all. Without going so far as to diagnose any issues he had, I’ll note that he says he used to mouthpiece buzz daily for 1 1/2 hours!

So that I’m clear, is it your contention that we don’t need any embouchure strength and control to play?

Dave

No I'm almost certain that the ceiling for the muscle that you can build in your embouchure is so low that any attempt to actively "build strength" is by definition, overtraining. And the control you need for free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing is not translatable to the control needed on the horn (see: end of this post, "unlearning control"). I was getting excited about being convinced otherwise about this, though, with the comments before yours. I'm stewing hard on Maximilien's amazing comments here.

If you want to talk about embouchure strength, it's like trying to get rid of back pain by doing vigorous lower back exercises when all we really need to do is just get our ass out of the chair and take a walk, and you blow your back out. Except you actually can train your lower back to be really strong. Now apply the same concept to muscles that are smaller than a French fry... (NB: in this analogy, "getting your ass out of the chair" is just playing the trombone normally)

I also see why you don't like my drum analogy. You want the air passing through the lips to be what vibrates the lips. So to you the drumhead would be the lips. But I'm saying that the lips won't vibrate naturally without the horn. They just open and the air passes through unimpeded. Just like in the Phil Smith video. Just like in Christian Lindberg's video. Your thinking is one step back in the system from where my thinking (and theirs!) is, and this is what I would love to change people's minds about. Literally the fundamental aspect of playing brass -- let's build our teaching on getting that right first, and if we still have a use case for buzzing after that, let's go for it. So in this sense (from my perspective, which could be wrong) the analogy is great because it is a diagnostic litmus test to catch head voice vs chest voice players/conceptualizers -- the air passing through the lips is *not* what gets them vibrating. The air passing through and then hitting the air in the horn (the drumhead) is what gets them vibrating. Obviously this analogy with a drum is different from a brass instrument with a standing wave, but the fact that the lips vibrate against and symbiotically with the compressing and retracting standing wave (and should not when you take it away) is what I'm after with the analogy.

You send the air through the lips (striking out with the drumstick). If the horn isn't there, there is nothing to get the lips vibrating and it's just air with no vibration (there is no drumhead). If the trombone is there, the air compresses and sets the lips vibrating along with the rest of the horn (the drumstick hits the drum head and bounces off). Any control you need to do a drum roll without the drumhead (flailing the drumsticks around) does not translate to doing a real drumroll -- they are completely different.

I put that Phil Smith video because I feel like it fits here in the discussion. The entire video is about unlearning "control" and relearning "control" and what brass playing is and what it is not (setting aside the last minute or so where he talks about faith).

[Wayne]

Harrison,

I really think that if you carefully watch Burtis’s videos again you’ll see his chipped notes occur following his harmonic singing. He is trying to go directly from the mouth position for singing to the playing embouchure, which is likely why he has to reset. I’m reasonably certain that if he were just demonstrating buzzing that the playing would have been cleaner.

Your drum analogy still doesn’t sit right for me. The sticks aren’t like the embouchure, the drum head is. The sticks are the air that set the drum head/lips to vibrating. Pitched drums alter the pitch through tension on the drum head, like the lip buzz. But that’s not analogous to playing the instrument because there’s not a standing wave with a drum ever, it’s always like free buzzing.

I don’t know what point you wanted to make with Phil Smith’s video, he doesn’t discuss free buzzing or embouchure strength at all. Without going so far as to diagnose any issues he had, I’ll note that he says he used to mouthpiece buzz daily for 1 1/2 hours!

So that I’m clear, is it your contention that we don’t need any embouchure strength and control to play?

Dave

I was reading through the thread and when I got to the drum head analogy part my thoughts were very much what I then saw posted by Dave. The air/stick passes through/hits the lips/drumhead and the lips/drumhead begin to vibrate and beautiful music/ElementaryBandDirectorNerveWreckingNoise ensues.

On the other point from the last section of posts, maybe it takes a now weekend warrior who once was in pro shape to understand the level of strength that playing actually takes. It's a lot more than I thought I was using when I was many hours a day seven days a week guy. If I have had to layoff for a vacation or whatever the kind of fatigue I can generate with some free buzzing, without stressing the lip tissue itself absolutely is a short cut to getting back up to speed with playing.

[Wilktone]

On the other point from the last section of posts, maybe it takes a now weekend warrior who once was in pro shape to understand the level of strength that playing actually takes. It's a lot more than I thought I was using when I was many hours a day seven days a week guy. If I have had to layoff for a vacation or whatever the kind of fatigue I can generate with some free buzzing, without stressing the lip tissue itself absolutely is a short cut to getting back up to speed with playing.

Yep. When I take extended time off the horn I can mitigate the recovery time by free buzzing some every day.

No I'm almost certain that the ceiling for the muscle that you can build in your embouchure is so low that any attempt to actively "build strength" is by definition, overtraining. And the control you need for free buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing is not translatable to the control needed on the horn (see: end of this post, "unlearning control").

OK, I'll have to think about how to address this. I don't think you're correct, but I'll have to dig around to find something objective that contradicts your ideas.

If you want to talk about embouchure strength, it's like trying to get rid of back pain by doing vigorous lower back exercises when all we really need to do is just get our ass out of the chair and take a walk, and you blow your back out. Except you actually can train your lower back to be really strong. Now apply the same concept to muscles that are smaller than a French fry... (NB: in this analogy, "getting your ass out of the chair" is just playing the trombone normally)

This hits home quite a lot today, as I'm sitting at home in severe back pain. I have some chronic pack pain that occasionally flairs up and have visited a physical therapist over it. The exercises I got (core building exercises, not back) have been great for keeping my back pain from flaring up usually, but I threw out my back somehow stretching my legs yesterday. Yes, getting up and moving around helps, but sometimes you need a muscle relaxer to get to the point of where you can move without so much pain that you can't move.

You want the air passing through the lips to be what vibrates the lips.

But it is, no other way to describe it.

But I'm saying that the lips won't vibrate naturally without the horn.

What about playing the horn is more "natural" than any other buzzing?

I agree that it's playing the instrument that we want to get good at, that's not why I question this statement. See the "naturalistic fallacy."

The air passing through and then hitting the air in the horn (the drumhead) is what gets them vibrating.

No, this is wrong. The lips need to go through a couple of cycles of vibration or so before the reflection of the standing wave works in tandem with the oscillator of the lips. No vibration, no sound. The reflection *helps* with keeping the lips buzzing, but when you change partials you have to get the lips to buzz at a different frequency before the note can change. There's nothing magical about the standing wave or air pressure differential that creates the vibration.

It may *feel* differently to some, and we can discuss the value of chasing that feeling, but I prefer to describe things as they actually are.

The entire video is about unlearning "control" and relearning "control" and what brass playing is and what it is not (setting aside the last minute or so where he talks about faith).

Yeah, I'm not too into that discussion, no offense to Smith. Again, you can make a case that what he thinks he's doing is helpful, but there's really no objective discussion in it about how to play.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

Chicken and egg again. Agree to disagree again (yup). You say I'm wrong. I say you're wrong. You and me going at it over this will just derail an otherwise awesome discussion, and I've already said 8000x more here than anyone probably wanted out of me -- it's long past time for me to shut up . I actually want to hear more from Brian.

The chicken and egg happen at the same time, and without the horn, nothing should happen if your air and chops are exactly where they need to be to make the pitch. Air passes right through and nothing happens.

[Wilktone]

Chicken and egg again. Agree to disagree again (yup). You say I'm wrong. I say you're wrong. You and me going at it over this will just derail an otherwise awesome discussion, and I've already said 8000x more here than anyone probably wanted out of me -- it's long past time for me to shut up . I actually want to hear more from Brian.

The chicken and egg happen at the same time, and without the horn, nothing should happen if your air and chops are exactly where they need to be to make the pitch. Air passes right through and nothing happens.

Then I hope you don't mind if I take the last word in our particular thread of this discussion.

I think you're referring to the pressure differential from inside the mouth to outside. When free buzzing the air downstream ("downstream" in this case is the physics definition, not the embouchure type) is atmospheric. As the upstream ("upstream" physics term) air pressure inside the oral cavity increases the lips are blown open and for a moment the air pressure inside the mouth is lower than atmospheric. Combined with lip elasticity and tension, this brings the lips closed, the air pressure inside the mouth increases and the cycle starts over. When buzzing on the mouthpiece or instrument the air pressure downstream is close to atmospheric, but because of increased resistance it can feel like the air pressure differential is more responsible to closing the lips. The same phenomenon happens with free buzzing or playing the instrument, it's just a slightly different pressure differential.

Some players will demonstrate this principle by forming their lips in a loose embouchure, blowing air through them without buzzing, then bring the instrument to the lips. A middle or low register note then happens, apparently without the player changing anything. It's never a high note, because that takes a larger adjustment to the playing mechanics that would be easy to see.

I argued with him about this, saying that he was just really good at falling into the slot and was actually adjusting away from the "buzz" as soon as the horn came into the equation, but of course he denied it and said it was exactly the same.

Players are good at adjusting. I agree that there is an adjustment that happens when a player free buzzes in or out of the instrument. Same thing with the demonstration I mentioned above. We can discuss whether it's a good thing to practice that or try to capture that sensation when we play, but it's not accurate to state that it's the air inside the instrument that creates the buzz. It is fair for you to point out that they are different.

We can discuss the difference between that sort of approach and a more firm embouchure formation where the player is able to free buzz into and out of the instrument seamlessly. The addition of the instrument influences the amount of effort we need to use, but in and of itself can't create the buzz. The lips need to be held with some amount of tension to bring them closed and we need to blow air past the lips. Without lip compression and air blowing past them there is no sound.

Again, for much of this conversation I agree with your conclusions (e.g., mouthpiece buzzing), but your rational doesn't get us there.

Dave

[Savio]

Hi fellow trombonists, I take a step forward and ask how can this discussion help anyone? Sorry Dave and Harrison.. Interesting to see how Dave use lot of time and effort to analyse every word. If we have to correct other people all the time, It would be a lifetime wasted.

[harrisonreed]

Well, it certainly got me thinking. I haven't thought about horns with a wide slot in a very long time!

[LeTromboniste]

Hi fellow trombonists, I take a step forward and ask how can this discussion help anyone? Sorry Dave and Harrison.. Interesting to see how Dave use lot of time and effort to analyse every word. If we have to correct other people all the time, It would be a lifetime wasted.

Well, anytime I have a discussion that requires reformulating or rearticulating my approach, it helps me further understand and refine it, which makes me a better and more aware player, and also a better teacher. So I find these discussions extremely beneficial! For instance here the exchanges with Harrison where he initially seemed to ascribe to me an approach that isn't what I do led me to reflect upon how I expressed my ideas and explain them again better, in terms that I might not have used earlier. And the reasons for Harrison and Dave to disapprove of mouthpiece buzzing, which are legitimate concerns, made me think about and better see the potential pitfalls in my practice and my teaching, which are good for me to have in mind and avoid. Ideas are meant to be challenged, pitched against each others and improved, and I welcome the opportunity to do that here.

[Wilktone]

If we have to correct other people all the time, It would be a lifetime wasted.

Aren't you a professional educator?

[Savio]

If we have to correct other people all the time, It would be a lifetime wasted.

Aren't you a professional educator?

Kind of, I teach mostly kids. So I focus a lot on giving them motivation. Musical joy, the experience of interaction and mastery. Of mastering the instrument and feeling togetherness. So I have to explain things simply, and hope I do it right. Because every student is different. Dave! you teach advanced students. So I understand why you and many others like to go into detail and analyze. Actually I like it, because there is always something to learn. What I don't like is that we claim that some things are right while other things are wrong. I have learned a lot from you Dave!

Leif

[blast]

Aren't you a professional educator?

Kind of, I teach mostly kids. So I focus a lot on giving them motivation. Musical joy, the experience of interaction and mastery. Of mastering the instrument and feeling togetherness. So I have to explain things simply, and hope I do it right. Because every student is different. Dave! you teach advanced students. So I understand why you and many others like to go into detail and analyze. Actually I like it, because there is always something to learn. What I don't like is that we claim that some things are right while other things are wrong. I have learned a lot from you Dave!

Leif

What I do know Leif, is that you are a good man and a good trombone player and from our conversations, I know you are a fine teacher. You know what is important and what is not. For some, brass playing is very complex, for others,simple. Always look for the easy way. Right or wrong, it requires a lot less effort .

[Wayne]

Savio above worries about saying X is right and Y is wrong. I get where that idea comes from I think- different strokes for different folks/bodies are different/needs are different...

On the other hand, it is okay to say X (in these circumstances) is the best option or idea based on the available good evidence. In my reading, that is what I see in the thread.

There is good information that is generally agreed upon about how sound is created and sustained in a brasswind system. There are semantic and degree arguments but the basic concepts are pretty close.

There are also a lot of anecdotally supported uses of various types of buzzing that are presented as ideas that have worked in people's personal experience. And that is how they are presented in my reading.

If I were to sum up the thread the content is that the lips do buzz/move while the horn sounds. Whether the lips or the horn are the primary control factor in maintaining the pitch is an unresolved debate. The importance of being able to control a buzz off the horn seems negligible as many never buzz and do fine, while those who can control a buzz off the horn have found ways that doing so helps them identify/fix problems or more quickly solve them.

In the details, there are lots of ideas to try out or concepts to help understand the trombone better.

[Wilktone]

Aren't you a professional educator?

Kind of, I teach mostly kids.

Me too. My point is that a huge part of teaching is helping student make corrections. I don't consider that to be a wasted lifetime.

For some, brass playing is very complex, for others,simple. Always look for the easy way. Right or wrong, it requires a lot less effort .

It's the teachers job to make it easy, even when it's actually complex.

Whether the lips or the horn are the primary control factor in maintaining the pitch is an unresolved debate.

There really is no debate about this. The horn does not control the lips.

Dave

[Wayne]

Unresolved in the thread.

[harrisonreed]

Whether the lips or the horn are the primary control factor in maintaining the pitch is an unresolved debate.

There really is no debate about this. The horn does not control the lips.

Dave

It sort of does though.

You can think of it like swimming. The horn is like the pool. You really can't swim unless you're in the pool. You can flail around outside the pool, but that isn't swimming. You can flail around outside the pool and be thrown into the pool, but if you don't conform to the physics of the pool and just keep flailing around, you will drown.

The pool dictates your left and right limit, makes it possible for you to be buoyant between the lane lines, and "controls" what you need to do to swim in it. Even when you're swimming like Michael Phelps in the pool, you're not controlling the pool, it's still controlling what you can do if you want to swim in it.

The sound of someone "controlling" the horn with their lips is the sound of someone drowning in the pool.

[Doug Elliott]

If you're flailing, you're failing.

The player should be in charge, not the horn. It just helps some.

[harrisonreed]

But, keeping with my pool analogy, of course the swimmer can choose what lane they want to swim in and how fast they want to go, or if they want to stay in the deep or shallow end. So of course there is conscious input -- the pool doesn't *make* the swimmer do anything. But they can't do any of the things above without being in the pool. Especially in the deep end, it is physically impossible to tread between the lane lines unless you're in the pool and it's full of water. If you take away the water you're just standing at the bottom of the pool imagining what it would be like to be treading water between the lane lines you can no longer reach. If you take away the whole pool, now you're just standing in an empty field moving your arms around. Your legs should also be pretending to tread water but they can't, because they have to be planted on the ground. The physics have changed.

I think the horn does a lot more than just help a little. It sets the physics that dictate what works and what doesn't work. The insight from Maximilien about sackbuts was interesting because I think that they might have different physics (as in, constraints, not as in "they're from another dimension") from a modern horn, and might allow for more additional techniques that work, which wouldn't work on a modern horn.

[Doug Elliott]

OK, I like the pool analogy.

At ages 6 to 9, I was a competitive swimmer. The team had a great coach, who taught us ALL of the swimming motions OUT of the pool and that the water helps by keeping you floating so you don't have to use energy for that purpose.

Then there are the details like cupping your hand and making sure it stays cupped. Reaching as far in front of you as possible to start the stroke. Moving your hand in an S shape motion through the water to to provide even power through the stroke all the way to the end. Bringing your arm back to the front by keeping it just above the water. No wasted motion. And turning your head to breathe in just the right position and amount to create a trough in the water for your mouth.

MANY similarities to how I play and teach now.
Details matter.

[Wilktone]

Well, continuing along my hot take, keeping it as objective as I can:

Harrison, I believe that I understand the point you have been making (and have tried to address it in my other posts). However, I think that you're allowing your playing sensations, favorite metaphor, or maybe your philosophical position to make the details you're describing far from objective.

The pool analogy might be the best one yet you've come up with, but I still don't think it holds water (sorry, couldn't resist the pun). The pool water doesn't tell the swimmer whether to do the crawl, backstroke, or sink to the bottom of the pool. Swimmers absolutely work on aspects of their technique outside the pool, as Doug has already pointed out.

To fix this analogy somewhat we should imagine a magical pool with lanes of smooth water with areas of choppy water between. This represents the partials of the instruments and the area between partials. The turbulent areas between the lanes keep pushing the swimmer towards to one side into the smooth lanes. When the swimmer is inside the center of the lane it's easy to swim.

The swimmer can choose to swim in the choppy area between the lanes. It's more effort to swim there, but the swimmer can choose to stay in there (and in our analogy it might even be an way to train). Swimmers can also swim a little to one side of the lane, where it's not perfectly smooth. It's a bit harder to swim there, but the swimmer allows the waves between lanes push them towards the lane, rather than aiming their path directly down the center of the smooth lane water.

The swimmer interacts with the water in the pool. The pool water doesn't dictate to the swimmer how to swim. The trombonist interacts with the standing wave inside the instrument. The instrument doesn't dictate the oscillation of the lips, but it will help give the lips a "push into the lane."

Dave

[harrisonreed]

Well, continuing along my hot take, keeping it as objective as I can:

Harrison, I believe that I understand the point you have been making (and have tried to address it in my other posts). However, I think that you're allowing your playing sensations, favorite metaphor, or maybe your philosophical position to make the details you're describing far from objective.

The pool analogy might be the best one yet you've come up with, but I still don't think it holds water (sorry, couldn't resist the pun). The pool water doesn't tell the swimmer whether to do the crawl, backstroke, or sink to the bottom of the pool.

Dave

So, Dave, really the point I've been making with the pool is that, especially if you think about the deep end of the pool, the only way to tread water in between the lane lines is for there to be water in the pool, and for you to be in the water. You can't magically float without the water being there. I've made the above bold because you've missed my point, that I already wrote, where the swimmer can choose what lane they want to be in, how fast they want to go (let's add what stroke). But the pool needs to be there to do those things, and it dictates what you can do and can't do in order to swim vs drown.

I do agree with Doug that the pool is also a good analogy for how people are taught to swim, especially as beginners. You absolutely can look at things like form and how to cup your hands out of the pool. But you don't really "train" these things outside the pool. You can visualize and imagine what they would be like, but you really need to be in the pool to put them fully into practice. My wife trained for a while, when we lived in Colorado, with the Masters Swimming team at the Olympic Training Center (her team was actually kicked out of the pool by Michael Phelps once!). She has a lot of insight beyond what I do about swimmers. It is true that Olympic swimmers do a lot of things that aren't in the pool, but when they are training swimming and form, unlike beginners, they are doing it *in* the pool. Coaches get in and film them and coach them watching them actually swimming. They are rarely going through the motions of swimming laid out on the ground. This might help a beginner, but it is not helpful for a professional.

I've admitted that buzzing might be a good tool for teaching at the beginning stages of learning a brass instrument, or for diagnosing problems in adult learners or people who are having issues playing.

However, to my point about the pool dictating what you have to do to swim in it, here's some audio from a trombone teacher showing exactly what I'm cautioning against and how the horn basically forces you to "swim or drown". Listen to this, and let's be subjective instead of objective. Mind you, the person speaking (I've significantly altered their voice) and playing is *not* the student:

(Audio clip deleted on request)

Being objective for a moment, you can hear that the instructor's tone on their instrument has an unusually high formant sound -- it's being artificially pushed up, likely through the tension induced by the free-buzzing. Staying objective, you can hear quite clearly after the first set of notes that the instructor buzzes the next pitch in the sequence and then attempts to bring the horn up to their face with the slide in the completely wrong position. They are not able to "control" the horn to make that pitch work until they move the side and they slot. The horn is 100% in control of what sounds can and can't happen, even though the instructor is trying to force it to do something else.

Being subjective, well ... yeah, I'd say this recording sounds exactly like someone demonstrating my analogy of flailing around trying to go through the motions of swimming, being thrown into the pool, and then drowning. That's mean, and I don't want to be mean but that's what being subjective is sometimes. I feel like instructors using this kind of teaching should be able to use it to self-assess and self-improve. This is an (isolated but by no means singular) example of that not being the case.

This recording underscores my perception of how a lot of professional instructors think about buzzing and free-buzzing as it relates to sound production on the trombone, and why it shouldn't be some universal thing that is taught -- instructors should demonstrate and teach a beautiful sound and musicianship. I've been in similar lessons with instructors spouting out this kind of instruction because that's how they were taught. But I can tell that they don't really know what they're talking about and it's clearly not something (in these cases) that actually improved their playing. I'm not saying this is the case for all instructors -- if Joe Alessi wants to say buzzing made him play the way he does and he can show me how to do it the right way, let's give it a shot I guess. But in the above recording I would say the instructor's ideas about sound production are holding them back a lot, and this is unfortunately the case for a lot of people teaching the trombone.

[LeTromboniste]

The insight from Maximilien about sackbuts was interesting because I think that they might have different physics (as in, constraints, not as in "they're from another dimension") from a modern horn, and might allow for more additional techniques that work, which wouldn't work on a modern horn.

I don't believe they have "different physics", not at a fundamental level that would explain this difference. I also don't think sackbuts allow techniques that wouldn't work on the modern instrument in terms of what we're discussing here, actually I find in this case it's precisely the other way around: the modern instrument allows for things that don't work on historical instruments; for an equal level of perceived proficiency the modern instrument is more "locked in" and therefore more forgiving. I find that playing sackbut has improved my modern playing (despite a hiatus of several years where I didn't touch a modern trombone!) by encouraging me to be more actively in control, and I have several colleagues who feel the exact same. The same approach to control of sound production that I use also works on modern trombone, actually it works better than how I approached it before (and which definitely didn't work well for sackbut).

[timothy42b]

The insight from Maximilien about sackbuts was interesting because I think that they might have different physics (as in, constraints, not as in "they're from another dimension") from a modern horn, and might allow for more additional techniques that work, which wouldn't work on a modern horn.

I don't believe they have "different physics", not at a fundamental level that would explain this difference.

We might be combining a couple different concepts - the analysis and the performance.

Here's a quote from an athletics site that seems to apply. It happens to be about golf but there is some application to other activities. Just replace "biomechanical" with the appropriate term. Physics maybe, embouchure, who knows? The last sentence is important but I think not universally true.

It is becoming an increasingly common perception - and a flat out wrong one at that - that a biomechanical description of what is happening in tour pros' golf swings is also a blueprint or "coding key" for how golfers should consciously try to create a golf swing.

Not even close to being true....

The part of your brain that can think about swing theory is NOT the same part of your brain that can actually execute that biomechanical model in your real body motion.

Theory and physical execution are not even in the same universe.

[Wilktone]

It is becoming an increasingly common perception - and a flat out wrong one at that - that a biomechanical description of what is happening in tour pros' golf swings is also a blueprint or "coding key" for how golfers should consciously try to create a golf swing.

Not even close to being true....

The part of your brain that can think about swing theory is NOT the same part of your brain that can actually execute that biomechanical model in your real body motion.

Theory and physical execution are not even in the same universe.

I would agree with everything here, but it's out of context. What's the recommended strategy to address the biomechanics when they aren't optimal? Surely there's some value to considering the theory in order to address the physical execution, provided it is done in the correct time and place?

I don't believe they have "different physics", not at a fundamental level that would explain this difference.

Certainly it's not as much of a difference as mouthpiece, rim, or free buzzing. This is a good point to make, though. If playing a sackbut can provide a benefit to playing on a modern trombone because the difference encourages the musician to play in a particular way, can buzzing in some form similarly provide a benefit? That is, I think, a valid point to consider.

So, Dave, really the point I've been making with the pool is that, especially if you think about the deep end of the pool, the only way to tread water in between the lane lines is for there to be water in the pool, and for you to be in the water

Yes, I've acknowledged this point several times already. You can't swim without being in the water. You can't play the instrument without playing the instrument.

Whether or not training ourselves outside the direct context of playing the instrument is a net positive or negative is a valid conversation to have. But it's the lips (and other playing factors) that tell the instrument what to do. The instrument provides feedback in both the sound and feel and players adjust how they play from there. That's all the instrument does, it doesn't provide the energy to get the vibration happening.


Dave

[harrisonreed]

But it's the lips (and other playing factors) that tell the instrument what to do. The instrument provides feedback in both the sound and feel and players adjust how they play from there. That's all the instrument does, it doesn't provide the energy to get the vibration happening.


Dave

Dave I've given a pretty solid audio example of exactly what I'm talking about and the kind of misguided teaching I'm cautioning against. In that audio the instructor buzzes a pitch, attempts to input that into the horn, has the slide accidentally in the wrong position, and nothing happens. Their buzz reaches out in all directions trying to slot and nearly stops, as if there's no air flow. It isn't until they move the slide that their lips start buzzing again, even though they lock in eventually on the wrong partial and on the wrong note (not the note they were buzzing).

They even try to cover by saying "oh I was buzzing on the wrong pitch", but that's not right, is it? It sounded like they were buzzing the correct pitch to me. The horn configuration just absolutely rejected that input. So when I say that the horn dictates what you can and can't do, that's what I mean. It's like jumping on a trampoline -- you need the trampoline there to bounce off of in order to keep jumping on it.

So it's not an "input in, output out" situation with brass, which is what a lot of instructors liken buzzing to, and that has even been posited by very high-level players, whose playing I respect sincerely, in this thread. Not all instructors do this, but in my experience most instructors who are gung ho about buzzing literally see it as the exact input needed to play. The lesson audio above is suggesting an "input in, output out" concept.

Nowhere have I suggested that a brass instrument is a magical energy source that requires zero input. I think that the feedback from the instrument, what you're hearing, and how that feedback locks your lips into a synergy with the instrument are the key to a great sound. Buzzing or free-buzzing a pitch as the input used without regards to the feedback is the key to a really crappy sound, as evidenced in the audio sample.

[timothy42b]

Whether the lips or the horn are the primary control factor in maintaining the pitch is an unresolved debate.

There really is no debate about this. The horn does not control the lips.

Dave

Is it that absolute though?

A beginner can play middle Bb, F, and low Bb right away, long before they learn to think the pitch and set their lips.

The horn really will do it for them at first.

Later on they learn to have a clearer mental note and a clearer physical embouchure note, even to the point of over-riding the position.

One place where there might be some disagreement is where the emphasis goes. Do we lip in tune or let the horn do it?

[harrisonreed]

There really is no debate about this. The horn does not control the lips.

Dave

Is it that absolute though?

A beginner can play middle Bb, F, and low Bb right away, long before they learn to think the pitch and set their lips.

The horn really will do it for them at first.

Later on they learn to have a clearer mental note and a clearer physical embouchure note, even to the point of over-riding the position.

One place where there might be some disagreement is where the emphasis goes. Do we lip in tune or let the horn do it?

This is exactly why I take the stance I take.

[Wilktone]

Nowhere have I suggested that a brass instrument is a magical energy source that requires zero input. I think that the feedback from the instrument, what you're hearing, and how that feedback locks your lips into a synergy with the instrument are the key to a great sound.

Thank you for clarifying. Your discussion about drumheads, how the air passing through and hitting the air inside the horn setts the lips to vibrating, and your statements that the lip buzz and air column begin vibrating in tandem simultaneously all gave me the wrong impression of what you actually believe.

Just so I'm on the same page as you, you do acknowledge that the lips need to vibrate first at the correct frequency before the standing wave will segment to the correct partial? So the lips do need to go through at least a couple of cycles of open/closed buzzing in order for the feedback of the standing wave becomes part of the system, right?

Buzzing or free-buzzing a pitch as the input used without regards to the feedback is the key to a really crappy sound, as evidenced in the audio sample.

You really seem to want to discuss the example you posted above, and you went through the trouble to find and isolate the specific clip, remove the video, and disguise the instructors voice. OK, I'll bite.

I don't think the teaching is misguided, at least not the very little bit of instruction you left in. The instructor knows what he's talking about. He not only mentions upstream and downstream embouchure types, but also that buzzing into the instrument is not for upstream embouchure players, as that will work against the musician's natural tendencies.

The demonstration leaves a lot to be desired, that's for sure. I'm not sure of the context of the demonstration, but I notice that the instructor needed to get a pitch in his ear before buzzing, so he's probably going at it cold. The instructor also was reiterating that buzzing into the instrument is not for upstream players. Between that comment and the sound, I might guess that this is an upstream trombonist demonstrating an exercise while intentionally playing on the wrong embouchure type.

My best guess about your goal to remove the video and change the voice is because if you left that in we would all be so moved by this instructor's beautiful appearance and dulcet voice that it would derail this conversation. Everyone wouldn't be able to stop talking about how attractive he is.

As an aside, when I teach lessons online I usually allow students to record the lesson for their own use. When I give online masterclasses I typically ask the audience to not record it, specifically because when something is put out to the general public I want to make sure that I provided good examples and speak clearly at the time. I wouldn't want someone to pull an example of me talking off the cuff or playing a bad example and posting it out of context. Nor would I want my natural beauty to distract the audience from my message.

It's easy to find crappy examples. Here's another bad example, video included this time.



There's a lot you can criticize in this example too.

So when I say that the horn dictates what you can and can't do, that's what I mean.

It's possible to buzz into the instrument in the wrong position and get the note to sound, if that's what you're intentionally trying to do. It's harder for me than others, since I have to force myself to play with a downstream embouchure type to do so. But I am able to get the horn to play a pitch outside the slot, so I still can tell the horn what to do.

When a player buzzes the mouthpiece, for example, they are telling the mouthpiece what pitch they want to buzz. For all practical purposes, it is the same frequency of vibration the player needs to play the same pitch on the instrument, but without the extra help of the instrument nudging the lips into the slot. The general idea here, I believe, is that the player is training their awareness to focus their lip buzz very precisely so that when they play the instrument they aren't relying so much on the overtone series to give their lips a push into the partial, but rather buzzing the correct pitch immediately and get into the slot as soon as possible.

In and of itself, I don't think that the fact that buzzing is different from how we normally play to be a deal breaker. As I've mentioned a few times earlier, buzzing practice has pros and cons. Risks can be mitigated, so it's up to the individual teacher/player to decide is the benefit is worth the extra effort it takes to practice buzzing correctly. Often it's just better to work on whatever you want while playing the instrument.

Dave

[Wilktone]

Oops, didn't see the later posts before I clicked reply.

Do we lip in tune or let the horn do it?

If we're not lipping in tune it's going to be off. It will either be like my example buzzing into the wrong partial intentionally or it will be slightly off focus and intonation can suffer. The sensation of "letting the horn do the work" is us feeling the vibration of where the horn is most resonant and adjusting our lips to play in the slot. Some players will fall back on letting the horn try to slot the pitch and if they don't adjust correctly you get the duller sound that is harder to play.

We can discuss analogies and playing sensations and whether or not they are useful. But the vibrating lips are what gets the system going in the first place, not the other way around.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

Thank you for clarifying. Your discussion about drumheads, how the air passing through and hitting the air inside the horn setts the lips to vibrating, and your statements that the lip buzz and air column begin vibrating in tandem simultaneously all gave me the wrong impression of what you actually believe.

Just so I'm on the same page as you, you do acknowledge that the lips need to vibrate first at the correct frequency before the standing wave will segment to the correct partial? So the lips do need to go through at least a couple of cycles of open/closed buzzing in order for the feedback of the standing wave becomes part of the system, right?[/b]

source.gif

For me, that's a big "no". This is like saying that you must first jump a few times at the exact correct height 20 feet above a trampoline before the trampoline material begins to assist you with you jumping those 20 feet into the air and sync to your input. Or if you want to go to a different "partial" that you must jump exactly 10 feet in the air a few times first before the trampoline reacts to you and you're then properly jumping 10 feet in the air.

One more try. For real, I think this tiny difference in the conceptualization of how sound is produced and maintained on the trombone makes all the difference. It's a fundamental difference in approach:

[Kbiggs]

At some point, analogies fail when discussing complicated phenomena, like physics, fluid dynamics, ecological systems, and the like.

I wonder what the time-stop movies by Lloyd Leno and Doug Elliott actually show us (assuming the audio and visual track are correctly synchronized)? It’s hard to really know what’s going on when a) it’s hidden from view and b) it moves at hundreds of cycles per second.

I think that neither the drumhead nor the trampoline analogies help or are convincing because they look at only one portion of what’s happening in the physics of playing. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Harrison, although I don’t think you’re on the right track. I’m saying that you haven’t convinced me… or David, of Doug, or Maximillien, or so it would seem.