Bb/G bass bone? What?!?!

[LIBrassCo]

Nasty case of tennis elbow has me looking for a lightweight alternative these days. Raided the parts bin, this is what came out. Just waiting on a receiver and I can finish up. Always wanted a g valve for noodling around, and I guess I can make an F slide if I ever really want to.

Current progress:

[elmsandr]

Perfect.

For a non crazy bass intensive modern big band, this is probably way more useful than it should be.

That said, I almost always get one dumb number on a set that forces me to bring a double instead of a single.

Cheers,
Andy

[Finetales]

Lots of orchestral bass rep where a single G valve (or even no valve at all) is plenty. I like my single G tenors, and if I ever wanted to bother with single basses again it would be fun to get one with different crooks for the valve.

[Sesquitone]

Nasty case of tennis elbow has me looking for a lightweight alternative these days. Raided the parts bin, this is what came out. Just waiting on a receiver and I can finish up. Always wanted a g valve for noodling around, and I guess I can make an F slide if I ever really want to.

Welcome to the (thumb-trigger-actuated) minor-third valve club! It may be an optical illusion, but your attachment length looks to be a little too short for G (natural). From Bb to G requires an additional sound-path length of 560 mm. I've attached some pictures of prototypes and commercial Bb/G tenor trombones, and one showing an extension crook to F. As you can see, the wrap lengths for G appear to be longer than yours. The primary rationale for minor-third attachments is their optimal interleaving of attachment (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th) harmonics and slide-alone harmonics in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register—together, mimicking (an octave lower) the facile upper register of the attachment-less instrument, using the same nominal slide positions. And this is the main attribute that should be taken full advantage of. Adding a couple of notes below E2 is a secondary consideration. You're still missing Db2, C2, and B1, before entering pedals.

Happy noodling!

[hyperbolica]

Single G valve bass is even more niche than a single F valve bass. G valve tenors are useful, but as a bass it just widens that C-B gap even more. More useful than a Db alto or baritone, but still...

[Finetales]

Single G valve bass is even more niche than a single F valve bass. G valve tenors are useful, but as a bass it just widens that C-B gap even more. More useful than a Db alto or baritone, but still...

As I previously mentioned, there is plenty of use for even just a single G valve in orchestral bass trombone parts. I've played entire concerts of all standard rep that didn't go below low E once, and there are TONS of parts that only go down to low Eb or D, which is playable on a G valve.

Unless your bass is a Conn 70-series with the extra-long slide, you're only actually only losing one real note (low Db) by using a G valve instead of an F valve.

This thread actually inspired me to start a spreadsheet of orchestral bass trombone parts and what valves they require. I've only gone through a few dozen pieces in the standard rep so far, but only a handful actually need two valves, quite a few don't need any valves at all, and of the ones that only need one valve, most can be done with a G valve. So far there's actually only one single-valve piece I've catalogued that NEEDS specifically an F valve, and that's Hary Janos because of the glisses.

[Posaunus]

This thread actually inspired me to start a spreadsheet of orchestral bass trombone parts and what valves they require. I've only gone through a few dozen pieces in the standard rep so far, but only a handful actually need two valves, quite a few don't need any valves at all ....

I've long suspected that this is true. Looking forward to your summary!

[hyperbolica]

This thread actually inspired me to start a spreadsheet of orchestral bass trombone parts and what valves they require. I've only gone through a few dozen pieces in the standard rep so far, but only a handful actually need two valves, quite a few don't need any valves at all, and of the ones that only need one valve, most can be done with a G valve. So far there's actually only one single-valve piece I've catalogued that NEEDS specifically an F valve, and that's Hary Janos because of the glisses.

Yeah, that's cool for those who need it. I don't play a lot of orchestral bass (3rd or 4th) bone. I'm mostly on either big band (which is similar to orchestral needs, but needs a brighter sound) or quartet (which is all over the map) . I use double v when I need it, but if I don't need it, I'll play tenor with a big mouthpiece. I do like the 1480 for stuff that doesn't require the 2nd v.

For the valve requirements, don't forget the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra (?) with the gliss that can't be done properly on any stock bass.

The G valve bass is a subset of a subset. It's ok if you have a bass for every specific occasion.

[LIBrassCo]

Nasty case of tennis elbow has me looking for a lightweight alternative these days. Raided the parts bin, this is what came out. Just waiting on a receiver and I can finish up. Always wanted a g valve for noodling around, and I guess I can make an F slide if I ever really want to.

Welcome to the (thumb-trigger-actuated) minor-third valve club! It may be an optical illusion, but your attachment length looks to be a little too short for G (natural). From Bb to G requires an additional sound-path length of 560 mm. I've attached some pictures of prototypes and commercial Bb/G tenor trombones, and one showing an extension crook to F. As you can see, the wrap lengths for G appear to be longer than yours. The primary rationale for minor-third attachments is their optimal interleaving of attachment (2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th) harmonics and slide-alone harmonics in the (otherwise awkward) low-tenor register—together, mimicking (an octave lower) the facile upper register of the attachment-less instrument, using the same nominal slide positions. And this is the main attribute that should be taken full advantage of. Adding a couple of notes below E2 is a secondary consideration. You're still missing Db2, C2, and B1, before entering pedals.

Happy noodling!

If you look carefully you'll notice the tuning slide isn't built yet. The crook is just jammed in there. It will be in tune with the slide out about 5/8".

[Sesquitone]

For the valve requirements, don't forget the Bartok Concerto for Orchestra (?) with the gliss that can't be done properly on any stock bass.

The two glisses in The Bartok were clearly intended as "raspberries", mocking the silly repetitive ditty of the previous material (which, in turn, was mocking the silly repetitive ditty in the Shostakovich seventh—which, in turn, was mocking "Da geh' ich zu Maxim" from "The Merry Widow"). On the bass, the B1-to-F2 can be "faked" in several different ways to sound like a continuous raspberry, with a variety of single or dual valves (using "bent" notes, "half-valve" or other "techniques"). Add a little flutter-tongue (or throat growl), and I bet the composer would have approved. The tenor gliss should have a similar "nasty" sound. In "The Miraculous Mandarin", similar glisses are intended a chaotic "noise", so the end-points aren't all that important. I realise that one has to be a bit skeptical about AI agent's "advice", but the following suggestions for performance seem to be particularly apt.

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[sf105]

As I previously mentioned, there is plenty of use for even just a single G valve in orchestral bass trombone parts. I've played entire concerts of all standard rep that didn't go below low E once, and there are TONS of parts that only go down to low Eb or D, which is playable on a G valve.

I've often wondered about this as what would be convenient for me is a valve that reduces the need for long slide jumps around low Bb, i.e. a G/Gb valve. As Finetales points out, a great deal of the orchestra rep doesn't go that low. For example, I have a straight neck-pipe for one bass that I occasionally used to use to reduce the weight. Worked a treat.

And, for the record, I believe Bartok was witing for an actual F bass with a long slide and handle. I'm guessing he didn't trust them to play in tune which is why the bass doesn't play in the chorale.

[Sesquitone]

I've often wondered about this as what would be convenient for me is a valve that reduces the need for long slide jumps around low Bb, i.e. a G/Gb valve. As Finetales points out, a great deal of the orchestra rep doesn't go that low. For example, I have a straight neck-pipe for one bass that I occasionally used to use to reduce the weight. Worked a treat.

The minor-third tuning Bb/G helps a lot (in terms of slide technique) throughout the bass clef. With the G tuning, you have the equivalents of (slide-alone) positions 4, 5, 6, and 7 in attachment positions 1, 2 ,3 , and 4, respectively. So, yes, notes in these positions can be found in shorter positions. But that is not the main point! The main point is that attachment harmonics 2, 3, 4, and 5 interleave between the Bb harmonics in a very uniform way. So the combination of available (slide-alone or attachment) harmonics now looks a lot like those of the Bb harmonics an octave higher: which are separated by thirds and seconds (rather than fifths and fourths). So now, the lower register (mostly within the bass clef) is just as (potentially) facile in terms of slide manipulation as the octave above. This can be seen at a glance in the ETSP Chart on the right, below. The open circles represent G-attachment notes. Lines sloping down to the right show individual harmonics. Note how the attachment harmonics interleave with the slide-alone harmonics (black dots) in a manner closely mimicking the upper register. On the left is my preferred tuning for bass: Bb/G+E=D.

The shaded regions in the charts represent "forbidden zones" (for equal temperament). The width of the unshaded regions indicates the number of "alternate" positions available for any given note. The dashed lines in the tenor chart represent whole-tone increments between adjacent available harmonics. This is a good diagnostic: the "smoother" the patterns, the better (for "smooth" slide manipulation). Note the "gently curved" patterns in the upper register. In the bass ETSP Chart, (thumb-trigger) G-attachment notes are open circles, (finger-trigger) E-attachment notes are "stars" and (double-trigger) D-attachment notes are "cartwheels". Note the generally wider unshaded regions: meaning more alternates. Where the shaded regions touch, there are no alternate positions: B1, A1, and Ab1 (plus a couple of very low pedals) are the only notes of this type.



.

[Finetales]

And, for the record, I believe Bartok was witing for an actual F bass with a long slide and handle. I'm guessing he didn't trust them to play in tune which is why the bass doesn't play in the chorale.

It's pretty funny that Bartok leaves the bass trombone out from anything softer than mezzo-forte in that piece. It's one of the most apparent "I don't trust this player" parts I've ever seen.

[sf105]

And, for the record, I believe Bartok was witing for an actual F bass with a long slide and handle. I'm guessing he didn't trust them to play in tune which is why the bass doesn't play in the chorale.

It's pretty funny that Bartok leaves the bass trombone out from anything softer than mezzo-forte in that piece. It's one of the most apparent "I don't trust this player" parts I've ever seen.

See also Bluebeard. The 4th doesn't even play in the big chord. I'm not sure what he was thinking.

[LIBrassCo]

Here's a little progress, and I mean little. Have to do some solder now, then make the G slide. From there it's clean up time.

[Sesquitone]

Here's a little progress, and I mean little. Have to do some solder now, then make the G slide. From there it's clean up time.

What are the respective bores? It appears that the G tubing bore matches that of the upstream end of the gooseneck, which is acoustically correct. For attachment intonation and tone-quality matching that of slide-alone alternates of the same sound-path length (which is mandatory for minor-third attachments because they are used a lot), you will need to have a (possibly dual-bore) slide that also has the same bore on the incoming arm. Also, no inadvertent "gap" or "chamber" inside the slide receiver.

[Sesquitone]

Nasty case of tennis elbow has me looking for a lightweight alternative these days.

A good alternative is the ERGObone. This not only takes the full weight of the instrument, it also takes the weight of your arm! [Not unlike a sling.] The adjustable long spring means that the trombone is "floating in mid-air". Your left hand can then make small vertical ("weightless") movements and changes in angle to allow for nuances in embouchure. Using a slide angle more nearly horizontal means that you are working mostly with slide inertia rather than inertia-plus-weight. Ideal for heavy dual-valve bass trombones and contras. Highly recommended.


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[Kbiggs]

It's pretty funny that Bartok leaves the bass trombone out from anything softer than mezzo-forte in that piece. It's one of the most apparent "I don't trust this player" parts I've ever seen.

See also Bluebeard. The 4th doesn't even play in the big chord. I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Bluebeard is THE NOISIEST piece of symphonic music I’ve ever heard.

[Sesquitone]

Bluebeard is THE NOISIEST piece of symphonic music I’ve ever heard.

The "traffic-noise" scene in the opening of "Mandarin"--with the trombones being the blaring car-horns--is, indeed, pretty noisy. But, if done convincingly, the "sighing walls" in "Bluebeard" can be really scary!

Maybe not as scary as an unconventional single-valve tuning on a bass trombone. But that really shouldn't be that scary.

[LIBrassCo]

For those interested, here is the finished length of the G valve. That's only actually pulled out about 3/8", I cut the tubes long.

[Sesquitone]

For those interested, here is the finished length of the G valve. That's only actually pulled out about 3/8", I cut the tubes long.

So the gaps inside the attachment tubing are only about 10 mm long, correct? I like the see-through "ring" on the Rotax (instead of the full end cap)—so you can check the alignment at-a-glance. I wonder why more designs are not like that—maybe with a clear plastic "dust-cover" dome? I assume that's a large-bore bass Rotax. Do you intend to have a "reversed" actuation direction? Or is that an optical illusion—awaiting the final linkage geometry?

[LIBrassCo]

Here's a better photo. I did indeed do just that (other was a placeholder).

[Sesquitone]

Here's a better photo. I did indeed do just that (other was a placeholder).

So this is not actually a conventional Rotax valve—just one with the same casing dimensions and compatible end-cap threads (?). Are you using individually adjustable stops? And could you show us a picture of the rotor?

With a matched-bore slide, G-attachment notes with the slide closed (from the pedal G1 up to the fifth-harmonic B3) should sound (in terms of intonation and tone-quality) exactly like the same notes in (fixed) slide-alone fourth position. To get used to this tuning, play some exercises (mainly within the bass clef) while (at first) avoiding slide-alone positions 5, 6, and 7. Sometimes (in scale passages), G2, G3, and D3 lie better in slide-alone 4th position. And sometimes (also in scale passages and arpeggios) F3 and E3 lie better in G-attachment positions 3 and 4, respectively.

[LIBrassCo]

Here's a better photo. I did indeed do just that (other was a placeholder).

So this is not actually a conventional Rotax valve—just one with the same casing dimensions and compatible end-cap threads (?). Are you using individually adjustable stops? And could you show us a picture of the rotor?

With a matched-bore slide, G-attachment notes with the slide closed (from the pedal G1 up to the fifth-harmonic B3) should sound (in terms of intonation and tone-quality) exactly like the same notes in (fixed) slide-alone fourth position. To get used to this tuning, play some exercises (mainly within the bass clef) while (at first) avoiding slide-alone positions 5, 6, and 7. Sometimes (in scale passages), G2, G3, and D3 lie better in slide-alone 4th position. And sometimes (also in scale passages and arpeggios) F3 and E3 lie better in G-attachment positions 3 and 4, respectively.

It is a rotax, I just modified the valve cap. It doesn't have individual stops yet, but it will.

[LIBrassCo]

Got to play it a bit. Played great! Slots well, excellent intonation, I'm quite happy with it. There's a unique quality to the valve with so little tubing, the compression is less than I'm even used to with Hagmanns. Also, I like having G on my thumb. I may make one that's G/Eb dependent in the future. I just really hate playing independent trombones haha.

[LIBrassCo]

Cleaned up the solder and all that jazz after work today. In short, I'm happy. If you haven't played a G only horn, do it, great experience.

[toxdoc42]

I recently bought a used schilling "bass tromb9one," which is heavier than my tenor, but really i adapted to it quickly. I do use a leather strap on the bone to help me hold the extra weight with my left hand. I have developed what seems very, likely tendinitis of my right elbow, feels just like tennis elbow. It was so painful one night just to touch that I couldn't' roll over in bed without waking up. I bought a tennis elbow brace, am taking ibuprofen, and stopped practicing for a while. Anyone else have any experience with this? I am a retired physician, so know the basics of this problem, I just wondered if anyone went through it and has any advice.

[Sesquitone]

Anyone else have any experience with this? I am a retired physician, so know the basics of this problem, I just wondered if anyone went through it and has any advice.

Yes, I have very strong advice: Get an ERGObone! [See my earlier post from March 13th.] With the heavier bass trombone, holding the full weight (primarily by the fourth and fifth fingers) and adjusting the angular orientation to the horizontal (by creating torque with the index finger), while trying to free up your thumb and middle finger (for operating the valves)—often for long stretches of time—puts a lot of stress on the muscles of your hand. Without the aid of the ERGObone, my left hand would cramp up within minutes, leaving me unable to play. The ERGObone takes the full weight of the instrument—plus that of your left arm! It's relaxing to just let your arm hang there, with your thumb and middle finger freely available for facile valve manipulation. The big bass trombone literally floats in mid-air, balanced on the long spring. Minor muscle movement will position it vertically for comfortable mouthpiece placement. They're relatively inexpensive and not at all "awkward" to work with. I did find it helpful to keep a small strap-wrench handy for sufficient tightening of the (slightly undersized) thumb-nut used for fastening the clamp onto the lower slide-receiver tubing.

[Windmill]

Welcome to the club !
Here's my Bb/G small bore tenor.

[Finetales]

^As usual, the prettiest trombones have Hagmanns.

[Sesquitone]

Welcome to the club !
Here's my Bb/G small bore tenor.

Right now, a "club". Perhaps soon, a "movement". Later, a "tradition". Still later: m3 (rather than P4) taken for granted. Then we can debate how to tune a "second valve" for chromatic continuity.



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[Windmill]

For just 2 tones, low C and B, I'd rather practice false pedals than invest in a second valve

[Kbiggs]

F? G?
D-flat or D?
Which valve crook
Do I want it to be?

C? B?
E-flat or E?
How will I choose?
O my! O me!

Should I have one?
Or maybe choose two!
My goodness gracious!
What shall I do?

Hagmann? Thayer?
Conventional rotor?
Flow through? Twin set?
Olsen? Miller?

Should I follow convention?
Or perhaps ergonomics?
I know that more horns
Means less economics!

But wait—I play Bartok,
Bernstein, and Respighi!
Bordogni, Blazevich,
Kopprasch and Rossini!

So many choices!
W.W.A.D.*
To play that one passage?
Never mind—I’ll play the kazoo…
Or perhaps the didgeridoo…?


*What Would Aharoni Do?

[Sesquitone]

For just 2 tones, low C and B, I'd rather practice false pedals than invest in a second valve

Db2, too.


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[Windmill]

Nope, 7th position+ trigger

[LIBrassCo]

There is no Db with a G valve. I don't even like using D.

[Windmill]

Mine must be special then, for it has a Db

[LIBrassCo]

Cool. I'd like to see a video of this low Db with a tuner some time. Then a low G in first also in tune.

[Windmill]

If I only knew how to film while using the tuner on my smartphone....

I don't know if it's due to the hagmann or not, but I even have to think and feel the low notes a tiny bit sharp when using the trigger. I don't adjust the slide position, it's only a mental feeling of these notes. Which doesn't match with what I heard about Bb/F trombones : the more pipe length, the lower you have to adjust the position while using the trigger.

But can't compare to a regular F-att, cause I never played one.

[LIBrassCo]

So in other words, the Db is sharp. As in, it's not really there unless you lip it down.

[Windmill]

I wanted to say the opposite... Sorry, English isn't my main language. In fact, the Db is flat, liké the other ones (D, Eb, E, F). And I have to think higher. But that might be just me and my earing.

[Sesquitone]

So in other words, the Db is sharp. As in, it's not really there unless you lip it down.

First, in order to avoid possible confusion, I should like to encourage all musicians (everywhere) to use professional terminology when discussing pitches (in various octaves) as opposed to pitch-classes. Scientific Pitch Notation places the octave number after the note name. Octave numbers ascend from C. And middle-C is C4 (a potentially explosive note on any instrument!). So, in this case, we are discussing the pitch Db2.

Perhaps one of the best ways to visualise slide positions for various tunings is to use Jonathan Harker's Universal Trombone Slide Chart. In the following, I have marked in in orange the length of a 7-position slide for a Bb trombone—in each of the various tunings in the chart. You can see immediately that, for G (natural) tuning, the lowest (non-pedal) equitempered note is indeed D2 (a few millimetres short of the end of the slide). For Gb tuning, a Db2 can be obtained just a few millimetres beyond the 7th-position in Bb. You can also see where C2 "should" be found with F tuning—and why B1 is unavailable as a "legitimate" note. The D tuning is interesting because you have available a non-pedal Bb1 at the end of the slide.

By the way, I have always found D2 to be a very robust note on any of my Bb/G trombones (in any bore size).



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[Sesquitone]

But can't compare to a regular F-att, cause I never played one.

Here's a comparison between "a regular F-att" and a Bb/G (natural) combination: side-by-side ETSP Charts. [Also, for comparison, side-by-side charts for Bb/F and Bb/Gb.] Black dots represent slide-alone equitempered notes, open circles are attachment notes. Running along individual harmonics shown sloping down to the right. The shaded regions outline chromatic scales for shortest (yellow) and longest (blue) slide positions. Generally speaking, the wider the unshaded regions, the more slide facility you have (because of more alternate positions). Where the colours touch, there are no alternates. [I did not show the attachment Db's on the Bb/Gb chart because they are (theoretically) beyond the length of a 7-position slide in Bb.]

You'll notice that the F attachment offers (only) four attachment alternates in the tenor register (with the same sound-path lengths as their slide-alone counterparts): F2 and E2 on the attachment's second harmonic, and C3 and B2 on its third harmonic. [Other attachment harmonics are too close to other Bb harmonics to be of any use.]

By contrast, the minor-third attachment offers sixteen attachment harmonics (with comparable sound-path lengths) in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register. [The Bb/Gb combination has nine.]

When correctly tuned, the G-attachment (with the slide closed) should sound indistinguishable from slide-alone 4th position—including a viable B3 (natural).


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[JohnL]

Maybe it's just the angle, but does anyone else think that Windmill's G-attachment looks a bit long?

That might help explain this:

I wanted to say the opposite... Sorry, English isn't my main language. In fact, the Db is flat, liké the other ones (D, Eb, E, F). And I have to think higher.

[LIBrassCo]

Maybe it's just the angle, but does anyone else think that Windmill's G-attachment looks a bit long?

That might help explain this:

I wanted to say the opposite... Sorry, English isn't my main language. In fact, the Db is flat, liké the other ones (D, Eb, E, F). And I have to think higher.

That's what I was getting at.

[Sesquitone]

Maybe it's just the angle, but does anyone else think that Windmill's G-attachment looks a bit long?

Here's a comparison to a perfectly in-tune G-natural attachment—in this case, on a Bach 42 bell (with ULTRA valve). Windmill's attachment would have to be a lot longer—in fact, a G-flat attachment—to be able to produce a "legitimate" Db2 at the end of a common tenor slide (with 7 positions in Bb).

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[Windmill]

Hi,

I recorded some low notes including a Db2. My tone isn't the best - not because of the horn, but because I didn't spend enough time working on my low register when I should have done that... !!

Here :

[Sesquitone]

Hi,

I recorded some low notes including a Db2. My tone isn't the best - not because of the horn, but because I didn't spend enough time working on my low register when I should have done that... !!

And, apparently, a C2?
How about a B1, so you have a continuously chromatic, single-valve (relatively light-weight) tenor?

Question: can you play those same note names one octave higher (with good tone quality) using the exact same slide positions?

[Finetales]

Sounds/looks to me like you're lipping a lot of those valve notes way down. Are you using the valve or playing those notes open?

[Sesquitone]

Sounds/looks to me like you're lipping a lot of those valve notes way down. Are you using the valve or playing those notes open?

This is an interesting "puzzle" that a number of people are trying to help resolve. I personally suspect the valve. From blow-ups of the video, it seems that the throw is extremely short. Which suggests a misalignment of the stops—possibly causing a "half-valve" effect: cross-talk between the two separate sound-paths, resulting in wolf tones in some higher registers and uncentered intonation in the low register. Also, in Hagmann valves, if "debris" gets in between the large flat rotating surfaces, this can have a similar effect. I would definitely recommend having a tech do a clean-and-adjustment of the valve.

In the mean-time, please try the following. First play D3 in slide-alone 4th position. Then play the same note with the G-valve in attachment 1st position (slide closed). They should sound identical and be quite stable (well-centered) tones. Now play the same D3 with the valve engaged in G-attachment 6th position (just short of the end of the slide). It's a longer sound-path but should sound very similar to the other D3's. You should not be able to "lip" these notes much in either direction (without distorting tone quality). Now, keeping that G-attachment 6th position, drop down the octave to D2. With a well-adjusted valve and properly tuned attachment, this should be a very robust and well-centred tone, with excellent tone quality. You should not be able to "lip" it up or down without sacrificing tone quality.


From the video, the blow-up on the left is attachment disengaged; on the right is (supposedly) engaged.
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