Options how to play C and B

[imsevimse]

In a few posts some time ago, someone asked about ways to improve and practice the B and C on a single-valve bass trombone. I meant to reply back then, but forgot. Now that the low register has come up again in another thread, I was reminded—so here it is. I hope it helps someone.

In addition to practice the James Markey exercises that others have posted in different threads like this one viewtopic.php?t=43150 and add false tones to them, I create my own exercises that are more rhythmic and melodic in nature.

Why are C and B the problematic notes?
On a single-valve bass trombone they are problematic because you can not reach far enough with the hand slide unless you retune the F-attachment. When retuned — depending on how much— your positions on the F-attachment changes and you also need to push the hand slide near the tip, where it almost falls off to get an in tune C or B, add to that you need long arms or/and may also have to do some lipping to get them. Any fast playing becomes uncomfortable because the notes are at the very end of the slide. You need some practice to be comforable to play bE or E-tuning and/or different versions of flat F-tuning.

On a trombone with two valves, the problem is that there is a difference in resistance when both valves are engaged for C and B and when you use one valve or no valves. I guess less if you play an Axial horn or have Hagman valves. A double also has the drawback of beeing heavier and can make stress on your hand and shoulder. It also invoves a lot of work with the thumb and indexfinger. To go back and forth between one and two valves is slower compared to the use of one trigger only.

If you just like me choose to play C and B as false tones, the resistance is low and the weight is low and the notes C and B are easy to reach since they are in the middle of the slide. No slow switch between one and two valves. Catch is the embouchure then needs to be trained to aim very precisely, since you get much less help from the instrument in guiding you to the correct pitch on false tones.

There are pros and cons regardless of which method is chosen.

Of course, you don’t have to use false tones to play my excerpts if you don’t want to, and if you prefer to play a bass trombone with two valves, that works just fine as well. The point is to surround the problematic notes with notes that aren’t, and to integrate them in a focused way by practicing short phrases that you can play without looking att the sheet music and then transpose them to cover the problem.

To train the low register with false tones, I construct short exercises based on bass figures I have encountered in the repertoire. These are usually two to three measures long and include figures involving B and/or C. I then play B and C as “false tones”, "fake tones", "factitious tones" or "falsets" if you prefer. These tones have many names at this forum.

I practice each exercise in at least four keys, so that the lowest notes cover Db, C, B, and Bb. After that, I vary the exercises rhythmically and in different tempi, and I add different articulations such as legato and staccato. My goal is to make the false tones sound the same as the surrounding notes. The better my false tones gets the better my normal tones gets. I know some do not see the point with false tones, and of course you do not need to master them when you have two valves. For me they are usable and also something I use to improve the low register. I started with false tones in the early 80-ies and for years they did not work that well. It is important you do not do special "trix" to get them. When they become usable it's the same emboushure as on the other notes. If you have to do some special adjustments to get them they will never be usable in real music.

I use a trombone with one valve for this, tenor or bass.

I found a set of excerpts I made and worked on a few years ago. They’re good examples of short patterns to practice. I transpose them through at least four keys, lowering the excerpt until I’ve covered the false tones C and B. The keys are usually D♭, C, B, and B♭. These are only suggestions. The point is to make your own!

(For me today) I do not write them down nowadays, and I make new ones constantly.

The excerpts should be practiced first, as indicated, four times for each phrase. On this page, most of my phrases are one-bar phrases. This means you play the bar four times in D♭, then four times in C, B, and B♭. Once you can do this by heart, you should instead play each row four times and transpose down to cover all four keys.

/Tom

[MStarke]

Tom,

thanks for summarizing your thoughts!
I like the approach of using kind of "real life" examples for practice.
For me I can say that I slowly get more comfortable with this. (Note that this is only one of many priorities in my playing that I am working on)

A small, but simple point that helped me with the 70h is making sure the grip and balance is more comfortable.
I now use a Leather Specialties strap and attached a weight to the valve tubing that balances it just fine.
Having this more under control also makes using the outer slide positions more comfortable.

I really love playing this trombone and want to be able to use it as much as possible.

[KWL]

A small, but simple point that helped me with the 70h is making sure the grip and balance is more comfortable.
I now use a Leather Specialties strap and attached a weight to the valve tubing that balances it just fine.
Having this more under control also makes using the outer slide positions more comfortable.

I really love playing this trombone and want to be able to use it as much as possible.

What weight did you use on your 70H? There is not a lot of brace real estate for mounting a traditional counterweight. The LS strap helps but mine is still pretty nose heavy.

Ken

[dbwhitaker]

What weight did you use on your 70H? There is not a lot of brace real estate for mounting a traditional counterweight.

Discussing counterweights seems a little off-topic to this thread but the weight from Instrument Innovations might work for a 70H: viewtopic.php?p=294532#p294532

[MStarke]

I put this kind of weight on the valve tubing: https://www.rb-shooting.com/gewichte/34 ... 00-gr.html

I had to add some extra material inside the weight as the diameter was too wide, but now it fits well. It's relatively small and doesn't look very special, works well.
I considered the Instrument Innovations weight, but it is somewhat difficult to get in Europe - don't even talk about tariffs and stuff.

Back to topic:
I have been playing the 70h a lot the last days as I am using it on an orchestral gig. Getting more and more comfortable with the fake tones down there. An important aspect is to really "hear" the note that you want to play - obviously as you don't have much slotting or other reference from the instrument. I think I can get to a point where I could use it for many settings, as long as it's not down there all the time.

If I had the time and patience I would probably do (more of) the Teele long tones on the 70h...

[KWL]

Thank you Markus and db for indulging my thread drift. Yes, back on topic - I do have difficulty playing an in tune C2 and B1 (with the E slide pulled) on my new to me 70H. This is particularly noticeable when playing the arpeggios in George Curran’s exercises, which are written for a Bb-F-Gb horn. It is not much of a handicap with common community band pieces, but I’ll be working on my false tones as he suggested. Thank you, Tom.

Ken

[MStarke]

What I also notice is that for the very outer positions, let's say low D flat in +-6th and low C in long 7th position, I tend to change the mouthpiece angle, which isn't good for response and integration into overall playing. Something to be aware of.

One more reason to get the false tones working and use them more confidently not only for low B, but also C.

I personally probably won't use E tuning. If I cannot manage with the F tuning and the occasional false tone, I can simply use one of my double valve basses...

[SwissTbone]

If you just like me choose to play C and B as false tones, the resistance is low and the weight is low and the notes C and B are easy to reach since they are in the middle of the slide.

Ummm.... what am I missing here? Why are they in the middle of the slide?

[MStarke]

If you just like me choose to play C and B as false tones, the resistance is low and the weight is low and the notes C and B are easy to reach since they are in the middle of the slide.

Ummm.... what am I missing here? Why are they in the middle of the slide?

I play low B with F valve plus low 3rd/same as E flat, low C (if playing as false tone) either on 7th - that obviously doesn't make so much sense because you can also press the valve - or with F valve plus 2nd. This can actually be pretty convenient in some situations.

[MStarke]

When I am reading my own posts here, I realize that this is a real niche question/issue...

[sf105]

I put this kind of weight on the valve tubing: https://www.rb-shooting.com/gewichte/34 ... 00-gr.html

I had to add some extra material inside the weight as the diameter was too wide, but now it fits well. It's relatively small and doesn't look very special, works well.

Any chance of a photo?

S

[MStarke]

I put this kind of weight on the valve tubing: https://www.rb-shooting.com/gewichte/34 ... 00-gr.html

I had to add some extra material inside the weight as the diameter was too wide, but now it fits well. It's relatively small and doesn't look very special, works well.

Any chance of a photo?

S

Sure.

[sf105]

Any chance of a photo?

Sure.

Thanks. That looks pretty neat and structurally safe.

[timothy42b]

What I also notice is that for the very outer positions, let's say low D flat in +-6th and low C in long 7th position, I tend to change the mouthpiece angle, which isn't good for response and integration into overall playing.

.

That might also be the reason low F is easier in 6th than on trigger, and why it's hard to get C in the staff sound the same in 6th and on trigger.

[timothy42b]

Sure.

Thanks. That looks pretty neat and structurally safe.

Looks like a standard industrial split shaft collar.

[MStarke]

Looks like a standard industrial split shaft collar.

Oh yes, pretty much the same. It does have some padding inside, which those collars seem not to have. However that's not a big change obviously and anyway I added some more material/padding to fit the tubing diameter.

[Savio]

I can't do the low C and B perfect on my 70h but there is a lot of good advices here. I think one of the clues are like MStarke say about having the pitch strongly in our ears.

He write this quote;
"An important aspect is to really "hear" the note that you want to play - obviously as you don't have much slotting or other reference from the instrument."

I have tried a lot and we definitely need to have these notes in our ear no matter method or trombone we play. So I have theories but not always the skill to do them. Some use false notes, some pull out the trigger, but sometimes there isn't time to pull it out. I like to have the F trigger note in place.

Some just put the slide out in 7nth and lip it down. George Roberts did that and it sounds fantastic. As we all know. He had fantastic intonation so he problably had the notes strongly in his ear. I try the same but the risk is the C is a little high and the B sounds like shit. Anyway for me. But sometimes I get it. The old Conn are a little forgiving about slotting, so you don't have to be that accurate with the slide. But it needs good ears. Many modern trombones lock in and can give a false security. I think we need our ears no matter trombone or tone.

Anyway, bending notes and false notes are good for chops and ears. The fun is keeping on practice different ways and maybe tomorrow...

Leif

[slidesix]

If you just like me choose to play C and B as false tones, the resistance is low and the weight is low and the notes C and B are easy to reach since they are in the middle of the slide. No slow switch between one and two valves. Catch is the embouchure then needs to be trained to aim very precisely, since you get much less help from the instrument in guiding you to the correct pitch on false tones.

There are pros and cons regardless of which method is chosen.

/Tom

Hi Tom. I have a quick question on your choice or method to play C2 and B1 in the middle of the slide.

Why the middle?
1. Do you find that the middle "lights up" or is "easier to play false" that the end of the slide?
2. Or is it more a practicality, feasibility like an alternate position? Since middle is closer to more positions than the end is?
3. Or is this more because that is where they would have naturally fell position-wise with a double-value D instrument? So why not play false where the muscle memory is for the D tuning? Is that right?

I ask because I have always played them as false tones, single trigger, at the end of the slide. I figured that would be easier to "light up" false. But since they are false tones, they don't really light up. That's why they are false, am I right? So, technically I could play them anywhere? So my not make it easier on myself and play them in the middle?

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance!
Aaron

[ghmerrill]

Looks like a standard industrial split shaft collar.

Oh yes, pretty much the same. It does have some padding inside, which those collars seem not to have. However that's not a big change obviously and anyway I added some more material/padding to fit the tubing diameter.

I was thinking of using this approach myself, and you can get these from Amazon (called "clamping collars") at a much lower price than from a specialized shooting sports provider ( ), although the one shown from RB-Shooting has the advantage of being a single unit, so less time-consuming to get on and off than using three or four standard collars.

I in fact ordered several of these "clamping collars" from Amazon, but shortly after they arrived I discovered that one of Hickey's "Standard Trombone Counterweight Kit" weights worked better, and was easier to attach and detach -- though in that case I had to file out the groove in the counterweight sides to fit my slide brace. At that point (maybe 3 or 4 years ago?) that counterweight cost me about $35 and was quite a good deal. Now Hickey's lists it as $105.95 (the price of copper and brass having increased substantially).

And it's true that for any of these things -- counterweights, shaft collars, or clamping collars) you may need to add some sort of shim (I've used split vinyl tubing or plumber's Teflon tape in most cases) in order for them to fit tightly enough.

[harrisonreed]

I feel like the counterweight might help slot those low notes?

[AtomicClock]

Why the middle?

A lot of people find that false tones feel and sound best one position lower than an octave above. Or think of it as lipping down from a major third higher). On the straight horn, that would be F# (half step above "trigger" F) in 1st, on down to Db in 6th and C in 7th. On the trigger side, you have Db (same as 6th) in T-1st, C in T-2nd, B in T-3rd, pedal-ish Bb in T-4th, and so on. T-2nd and T-3rd are more-or-less the middle of the slide.

[Olofson]

My friend Håkan play 5 octave B on YT for fun. Notice the positions.

[Olofson]

Well that link did not work.

My friend Håkan play 5 octave B on YT for fun. Notice the positions.
[/quote]

You can find the clip yourself on YouTube Håkan Björkman 5 octaves.

[imsevimse]

[MStarke]

Hakan is such a likeable and funny guy! I once had a lesson with him which also touched this subject and was helpful in many aspects. And a really clear low B!