Trombone 2 part needed!

[WGWTR180]

Hello everyone. I'm looking for the Orchestra Trombone 2 part of Academic Festival Overture in Bass clef. Has anyone seen one or has anyone made a bass clef part out of the tenor clef part? Needed quickly which is why I'm asking for a fellow musician. Many thanks.

[AtomicClock]

Did you not try to google it? It's pretty easy to find.

https://www.aysmusic.org/wp-content/upl ... -tbn-2.pdf

[JohnL]

Did you not try to google it? It's pretty easy to find.

https://www.aysmusic.org/wp-content/upl ... -tbn-2.pdf

No cues on that part; better count like a crazy.
(one could always do an old-school cut and paste and overlay the bass clef bits onto the original part)

[WGWTR180]

Thank you. To be perfectly honest this is for a close friend who told me he had searched. Seems like I should've done the work myself.

[AtomicClock]

Keep both parts on the stand; count from the original, and read from the copy.
Optical Music Recognition software is still too hard. But I'm still waiting for software to do the simpler approach - erase two lines from the top of each staff and draw them in at the bottom. That should be possible with today's technology.

[Doug Elliott]

There are 3 potential solutions to this problem:
1. Find or make a bass clef part.
2. Learn clefs.
3. If you're not prepared for the gig, give it to somebody who is.

There are many applications of rule #3

[WGWTR180]

There are 3 potential solutions to this problem:
1. Find or make a bass clef part.
2. Learn clefs.
3. If you're not prepared for the gig, give it to somebody who is.

There are many applications of rule #3

Yes Doug Thanks.

1. Not for me but it's needed for tonight and there's no time to make one.

2. Yes I did when in high school but this high schooler doesn't have time to learn it by tonight for a school concert.

3. And yes but refer to 1 and 2.

I guess I should've made myself more clear from the start.

[AtomicClock]

The world is full of community orchestras that need trombone players. The world is also full of amateur trombonists who never learned their clefs. Beggars can't be choosers.

[harrisonreed]

The world is full of community orchestras that need trombone players. The world is also full of amateur trombonists who never learned their clefs. Beggars can't be choosers.

The part you found is so short that it could be transcribed by hand on a single blank printed sheet of manuscript paper in about 20 minutes. The high schooler might not be able to learn to read the clef by the evening, but I distinctly remember having to transcribe stuff at the last second for, erm, district band music when I was a freshman in HS and had not looked at my parts before the first rehearsal. No adults would have bailed me out and I would have got yelled at big time.

Also remember writing in positions over the notes for the same reason as a middle schooler. That would have taken about 10 minutes with that part. I had no idea what tenor clef was but I figured out a part that worked.

I'm glad OP can help out the band director, but "kids these days, AmIRigHt?"

[AtomicClock]

I'm glad OP can help out the band director, but "kids these days, AmIRigHt?"

Amen. I'm more aware of my adult peers who refuse (or claim inability) to help out when I need to fill a section.

When I was in high school, I learned tenor clef in a few weeks. As a young adult, I struggled to learn alto clef, and it sill evaporates when I don't practice it. As a middle-aged adult, I want to learn treble, but fear my brain won't cooperate. I wish I had pushier teachers.

(I also hate getting parts passed to me that have the notes written in from the last guy.)

[AtomicClock]

To be perfectly honest this is for a close friend who told me he had searched.

Well, Google found the 1st part, and I hand-edited the URL to point to 2nd. But that's still covered in Googling 101, right?

[WGWTR180]

To be perfectly honest this is for a close friend who told me he had searched.

Well, Google found the 1st part, and I hand-edited the URL to point to 2nd. But that's still covered in Googling 101, right?

Yup it's all in the details right?

[WGWTR180]

Those "back in the day' comments are always appreciated. We all walked to school uphill in the snow both ways, right? Except we really didn't. We all claim that no one helped us with anything except they did and we just don't care to remember. We all assume we know the exact situation when we comment but we actually don't.
For the student this part was for I hope that his late afternoon rehearsal and concert at his HIGH SCHOOL went well and I am thankful to AtomicClock for doing the work on something I assumed had been already searched for and should have done myself.
Hope that covers everything.

[Doug Elliott]

We should all just use this thread and its tangents as a reminder that reading clefs is as important as finding the best equipment, even for high schoolers. Which means it should be taught and learned before it's needed.

[atopper333]

Those "back in the day' comments are always appreciated. We all walked to school uphill in the snow both ways, right? Except we really didn't. We all claim that no one helped us with anything except they did and we just don't care to remember. We all assume we know the exact situation when we comment but we actually don't.
For the student this part was for I hope that his late afternoon rehearsal and concert at his HIGH SCHOOL went well and I am thankful to AtomicClock for doing the work on something I assumed had been already searched for and should have done myself.
Hope that covers everything.

Definitely see your frustration, and complete understand it and agree with it…

Yes I also understand that these things should be taught and learned before they are needed, but, as I’m sure most people are in a similar situation, when we are seeing band sizes literally a third or less of what they were when we were in high school, shouldn’t we be encouraging anyone who wants to pick up a horn now? Trying to help them out? Providing positive encouragement and also encouraging those who are trying to help them out?

Crap happens and sometimes someone just needs some help…does it always need to become a lesson?

I hope his concert went well, he enjoyed himself and it gives him a positive experience to stay with it and learn all the clefs in the world, and thank you for helping him out and keeping the art going.

[Posaunus]

When I was in high school, I learned tenor clef in a few weeks. As a young adult, I struggled to learn alto clef, and it still evaporates when I don't practice it. As a middle-aged adult, I want to learn treble, but fear my brain won't cooperate. I wish I had pushier teachers.

(I also hate getting parts passed to me that have the notes written in from the last guy.)

[harrisonreed]

Crap happens and sometimes someone just needs some help…does it always need to become a lesson?

The OP did their friend a solid and seems like someone who goes above and beyond. I don't think anyone is really saying that they didn't do a good thing.

But surely every successful classical musician can relate to discovering at the last second that they can't read their part and doing the quick "write the note names in fast!" trick to make it happen. If you can remember doing that, even once, you know that it's a great lesson to learn - especially when the person next to you points out loudly that you had to write the note names in over your part and that you'd better erase it before you turn it in. That's how you build the desire to eventually learn the clefs.

The OP is probably right. The high schooler in question probably got pulled in at the last second and the director only saw it at the last second, before even handing the part to the kid, that it was in a clef they couldn't read. Not the kid's fault, esp. if they weren't even given the opportunity to try and work out their part.

[GabrielRice]

In my summer job at Kinhaven I occasionally get a student who has not yet learned to read tenor and/or alto clef, and what I usually do is give them a few sheets of staff paper and make them write out parts for themselves by hand. Sometimes it's a specific piece they'll need to play; sometimes it's a familiar bass clef etude that I have them write out in tenor clef, but the objective is the same: they learn the clef by going through the painstaking process of writing it out.

By hand. With a pencil. Neurons firing in all directions.

Obviously, that was not an option for Bill's friend's student.

And in my school year job I sometimes get bass trombone students - even at the doctoral level - who are uncomfortable with tenor clef (uncomfortable with alto clef is a given), and I have them play familiar bass clef etudes in tenor clef down an octave, which is what I consider to be our middle range.

[atopper333]

Crap happens and sometimes someone just needs some help…does it always need to become a lesson?

The OP did their friend a solid and seems like someone who goes above and beyond. I don't think anyone is really saying that they didn't do a good thing.

But surely every successful classical musician can relate to discovering at the last second that they can't read their part and doing the quick "write the note names in fast!" trick to make it happen. If you can remember doing that, even once, you know that it's a great lesson to learn - especially when the person next to you points out loudly that you had to write the note names in over your part and that you'd better erase it before you turn it in. That's how you build the desire to eventually learn the clefs.

The OP is probably right. The high schooler in question probably got pulled in at the last second and the director only saw it at the last second, before even handing the part to the kid, that it was in a clef they couldn't read. Not the kid's fault, esp. if they weren't even given the opportunity to try and work out their part.

The first sentence of your last paragraph is exactly what I’m talking about.

“The OP is probably right.”

All I’m saying is why didn’t we give the OP the benefit of the doubt given this is the situation they were dealing with and had already decided to help given their personal knowledge of what was going on. Why was there an assumption that they needed to be told about the importance of learning clefs, etc.

I’m not disagreeing with you that this is a lesson that should be learned at some point, what I am saying is that it’s not right for someone without active knowledge of the complete circumstances to make assumptions on what it truly happing or which course of action is best to take and send it.

[Doug Elliott]

That question was answered by the first reply.
Maybe the rest of us should have stayed out of it.
But I do think it's a learning opportunity for both students and teachers - those who are not immediately affected, but will be sometime.

[WGWTR180]

If anyone cares here is my experience with clef learning. After my junior year in high school I attended Brevard Music Center. The 2 trombone instructors were Gail Wilson and Charlie Vernon. I believe there were about 12-15 trombone students there and they held auditions at the beginning for placement in band and orchestra. I played my prepared piece and that went well, at least my memory from 1978 tells me in went well, and then they put a piece in front of me to sightread. It was in tenor clef and I'd never seen tenor clef before. I froze. I don't remember the exact conversation after that moment but I literally had NO idea what to play-audition over. Needless to say that was a big moment for me. Over the summer I learned both tenor and alto clefs but, or course, never had to play anything until years later in either clef.
Maybe my17 year old self came back to me when trying to help out yesterday? Who knows. This kid was stepping in because the student who was suppose to play stayed home sick.
So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[MahlerMusic]

I use to play tenor clef all the time back in my Orchestra days. Now I got a tenor clef part in my trombone choir and I was so slow to read it. I ended up getting the bass clef part to keep me sane. I already have to play a G Contra for a couple pieces so my brain is at max right now but I wish I kept up with my tenor clef.

[Doug Elliott]

I don't know much about childhood brain development, but I was force-fed clefs via the Blazhevich clef studies, in 8th grade (I guess age 12-13). I absolutely hated it.... but I've never forgotten how to read tenor and alto.

I'm sure the same applies to languages and other things. Learn early, it only gets harder.

[robcat2075]

There are many things that seem easier today than when i encountered them as a juvenile, clefs among them, even though i certainly have not spent the intervening years drilling myself on clefs.

Math and science calculations seem easier today.

While it is possible i am smarter today it is also possible the teachers i had in school were uniformly lame and ineffective. I know that today i can always find a YouTube video that explains something better than what I was hearing in school.

But the clefs I attribute to a better discernment and perception of patterns than when i was school age.

I suspect clefs, for most trombone players, are taught with the practical goal not clearly evident. What is the treasure at the end of the tunnel for having learned clefs?

One practices clef etudes so that one may more-easily play further clef etudes!

[Nomsis]

I have a story to add, today we were playing at a funeral with my local community band. Because it was mid-day mid-week many were missing. It happened that all of the horns couldn't make it but we were two trombones. So I was playing the french horn part written in f, which had some stuff not in other instruments parts. It helped that it was not exactly technical and fast and I have heard the part many times before. I played it before one time, then used the time today waiting for us to play looking at it. I was a little afraid I would mess up mid-part or so but it went pretty well.

I think it helped that I can read also treble clef, and tenor clef (alternatively treble clef in Bb). Still need to learn alto clef since i own an alto. But probably will never need it though... Never got to play any alto part so far, always misused the alto to play regular trumpet or trombone parts.
If not using a clef for a longer time I always need some time to feel safe. Especially when it gets a little faster it gets challenging for me. Can feel pretty helpless when clefs start mixing up in the head... Bass clef will always be home.

[AtomicClock]

Just for fun, I asked ChatGPT to transpose the part. First, it lectured (instructed?) me on how to write it out myself, except it was wrong; it got alto and tenor clef confused. Then, I got it to actually make an attempt. I uploaded jpegs of the part and asked for Lilypond (text-based) output. Total disaster. It understood the Italian words above and below the staff, and got the multi-measure rests correct, Everything else was just random nonsense.

Nothing new here of course, but I've been avoiding playing with AI firsthand until now. The worst part was definitely the 100% confident attitude it had while spewing the nonsense. If it said "I'll give it a try" instead of "Yes, I can definitely do that for you", it would have a lot more credibility in my book.

[harrisonreed]

Just for fun, I asked ChatGPT to transpose the part. First, it lectured (instructed?) me on how to write it out myself, except it was wrong; it got alto and tenor clef confused. Then, I got it to actually make an attempt. I uploaded jpegs of the part and asked for Lilypond (text-based) output. Total disaster. It understood the Italian words above and below the staff, and got the multi-measure rests correct, Everything else was just random nonsense.

Nothing new here of course, but I've been avoiding playing with AI firsthand until now. The worst part was definitely the 100% confident attitude it had while spewing the nonsense. If it said "I'll give it a try" instead of "Yes, I can definitely do that for you", it would have a lot more credibility in my book.

I don't think Chat GPT is the tool for that job. The fact that a language model is even able to attempt to look at and understand sheet music is insane.

AI and neural network building blows my mind. Here's a fun one:





It's coming. It probably will not be very long before a tailored neural net is set up that can tear through any sheet music you throw at it, it just it's likely very ... very low on anyone's to-do list right now.

But once we have AGI, possibly by 2030, interpreting sheet music will be like adding 2+2 for AI.

[MrHCinDE]

Like most trombonists I can relate to that student from the OP‘s post.

The vast majority of keen amateur trombonists I knew in the UK were good in bass clef, tenor clef and a lot in Bb treble clef for brass bands, same applied to me. I don‘t think alto clef was really part of the curriculum in the ABRSM grades (up to and including grade 8, the highest most would aim for before music college etc.). There might have been an option to choose a piece in alto clef but I don’t think it was mandatory. My teacher had shown me the basics of alto clef with some excerpts but I‘d never used it in a performance.

As a (non-music) student, I got a call a few days before a gig to help out an amateur orchestra due to sickness of their regular player. I got the music two days before the gig, and there was a symphony in alto clef, I forget which but was probably Shostakovich. I simply didn‘t have time to nail it down in alto clef (engineering student, no time!) so got out the Tipp-Ex, and a ruler with a fine black pen and got busy with the photocopier.

[Posaunus]

... I simply didn‘t have time to nail it down in alto clef, so got out the Tipp-Ex [white-out], and a ruler with a fine black pen and got busy with the photocopier.

Practical response to a real problem.
Time-consuming (especially for an entire symphony) - but faster than learning alto clef!

[Doug Elliott]

By the time you finished that little exercise, I bet you were a lot closer to being able to read it.

[MrHCinDE]

By the time you finished that little exercise, I bet you were a lot closer to being able to read it.

Indeed, the way I learned it was doing this workaround on a couple of pieces, then once I kinda knew them reverted back to the alto clef original. After a couple of times, I didn’t need the Tipp-Ex [white out, thanks Posaunus for the translation!] and copier again. I found the motivation of reading a piece in an ensemble, without making a total fool of myself, much stronger than just practicing excerpts at home.

[JohnL]

By the time you finished that little exercise, I bet you were a lot closer to being able to read it.

Transposing a few parts by hand was how I learned to read Bb treble clef. After that, tenor clef came pretty easily.