Cut/Screw bell mods on vintage horns?

[Fidbone]

Hello esteemed members,

I’d like to know if anyone has had a vintage or fixed bell cut after market?
Bad move or has it improved your horn in any way other than making it heavier to hold and easier to fly with?
Does it mess up the response or resistance or improve it?
Have any of you had it done and then regretted it?

I’m mostly interested in experiences with small/medium bore straight horns than large bores as I think it’s probably less of a dilemma with those sized instruments..

Cheers

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

Here’s an old Wallace that was converted to screw bell. Owner says it hasn’t affected playability. Maybe he’ll chime in.

[Retrobone]

Hello esteemed members,

I’d like to know if anyone has had a vintage or fixed bell cut after market?
Bad move or has it improved your horn in any way other than making it heavier to hold and easier to fly with?
Does it mess up the response or resistance or improve it?
Have any of you had it done and then regretted it?

I’m mostly interested in experiences with small/medium bore straight horns than large bores as I think it’s probably less of a dilemma with those sized instruments..

Cheers

I once had a great Elkhart 88 bell cut for travel. Wrecked it... totally, sorry to say. Bad choice, but it may not have been an ideal piece of work.

[GabrielRice]

Adding that much weight anywhere on the instrument changes it.

[Burgerbob]

My biggest concern would be balance. Lots of vintage horns are already a bit front heavy.

[jacobgarchik]

I did it to a 1980 Bach 36. Not sure if that counts as vintage. It came out great. I use it all the time. I also have an uncut 1970s Bach 36. It does add some weight but not an insurmountable amount. They both have great sounds. With the ring is a bit darker and the bell doesn't vibrate as much.
I always tell people to do it to a spare bell section from a non-precious vintage.
I still have plans to do it to a 1920s 4h to make the ultimate tiny travel horn...I have 3 bell sections from that era. The bell section cost is basically nothing.

[WGWTR180]

Zero change? Impossible. For better or for worse? Possible. IF you love it don't touch it.

[pbone3b]

Here’s an old Wallace that was converted to screw bell. Owner says it hasn’t affected playability. Maybe he’ll chime in.

I love the screw-bell/friction-fit-slide combo!

[doctortrombone]

I've done two. Both were last-ditch efforts to save an otherwise unplayable horn. The first was an 88H that had been buffed down so heavily in the throat area that it would fold just from being in the case. The repeated bending and straightening had weakened the brass--fortunately, right in the area where the screw bell fitting would go. It played well both before and after. The thickness of the screw bell hardware added a level of support in a very vulnerable area.

The other was a Martin Committee that someone had tried to make into a fakebutt. Really dumb. And no, it wasn't me. With a King 606 bell, it played like a Committee.

I don't think I'd attempt it on a horn that plays well otherwise. Lots can go wrong.

[harrisonreed]

Far better to spend the money on a Tank case if you actually need to travel.

Otherwise just get one of those Calderpip things or tape the bell. Higher up towards the bell brace is the better spot to experiment with adding weight, fwiw. Not where the flare connects...

[Burgerbob]

Far better to spend the money on a Tank case if you actually need to travel.

That's silly.

[LeTromboniste]

Far better to spend the money on a Tank case if you actually need to travel.

That's silly.

I agree. I'll take the convenience of taking the horn in the cabin as hand luggage over having to lug around a heavy flight case everyday and twice on Sunday. And I say that as someone who very regularly needs to do both (carry-on when only using my tenor, checked flight case when needing the bass sackbut or both horns). There's just no comparison.

[harrisonreed]

Far better to spend the money on a Tank case if you actually need to travel.

That's silly.

Vs potentially ruining a vintage trombone? Are you sure?

I'm not talking about horns specifically designed to be screw bell instruments. Obviously those work and would be way better than a Tank case.

If I had a trombone I couldn't replace, for whatever reason, I'd lug the tank case around. Heck, I've checked an empty gig bag before and used that once I got to my destination.

[harrisonreed]

That's silly.

I agree. I'll take the convenience of taking the horn in the cabin as hand luggage over having to lug around a heavy flight case everyday and twice on Sunday. And I say that as someone who very regularly needs to do both (carry-on when only using my tenor, checked flight case when needing the bass sackbut or both horns). There's just no comparison.

I thought sackbuts were already screw bell instruments, sans flare. They fit into a screw bell case without having to cut them already, right?

I'm not having a go, I just thought we were talking about converting horns you otherwise can't replace into screw bell horns. I wouldn't do that.

[jacobgarchik]

Conn 4h and 6h and King 2bs and 3bs and Bach 36s and various Olds are pretty plentiful...Not really a big deal if you sacrifice one to the saw. Most of those bell sections are like $500 or less. Cosmetics don't matter because it's gonna get scuffed up anyway with the surgery.

[LeTromboniste]

I agree. I'll take the convenience of taking the horn in the cabin as hand luggage over having to lug around a heavy flight case everyday and twice on Sunday. And I say that as someone who very regularly needs to do both (carry-on when only using my tenor, checked flight case when needing the bass sackbut or both horns). There's just no comparison.

I thought sackbuts were already screw bell instruments, sans flare. They fit into a screw bell case without having to cut them already, right?

I'm not having a go, I just thought we were talking about converting horns you otherwise can't replace into screw bell horns. I wouldn't do that.

I have a modern trombone with a screw-bell, for precisely the purpose of being able to have it as cabin luggage when I need to travel with it. Also, while you're correct that no sackbut has the problem of having a large flare, a bass sackbut slide is 50% longer, and the case can be no shorter than 46", quite a bit longer than any normal trombone case and too long to bring as cabin luggage on virtually any flight.

Half of the time, I'm in an equivalent situation to carrying a screw-bell modern trombone – i.e. cabin baggage, lightweight case I can put on my back and carry around effortlessly both during travel and once at deatination – and the other half, I am in an equivalent situation to carrying a conventional modern trombone in a Tank case – i.e. checked baggage, with risks of it being delayed, in a big and heavy flight case that's really annoying to carry around once at destination, and especially if further travel is required by train or car. And I actually have the advantage over the Tank case scenario that I just slide my normal case inside the flight case (not the instrument itself directly in the flight case), so if I'm staying in the same hotel the whole time and there's not other travel involved, at least I get to carry my instruments normally once I've arrived and just leave the empty flight case at the hotel. With a Tank case (other colleagues use heavy reinforced rifle cases), you're stuck dragging it around all over town on wheels. And if you're traveling within or too Europe, lemme tell you those cobblestone streets are reeeeallly fun......

I much, much prefer the first situation and so for me, screw-bell was just a no-brainer for my modern trombone.

Edit: sorry there's two parallel threads on the topic of screw-bells so I got mixed up over which thread this was. I just got that you're talking in terms of having a vintage bell cut, so that makes more sense. I think the reality for me would be that if I played mostly modern trombone and had to travel a lot, either my main horn would be screw-bell, or if my main horn were a vintage instrument I don't want to risk cutting I'd leave that horn home when traveling and have a second, screw-bell instrument (or bell section that fits on the same slide) for that purpose.

[harrisonreed]

I thought sackbuts were already screw bell instruments, sans flare. They fit into a screw bell case without having to cut them already, right?

I'm not having a go, I just thought we were talking about converting horns you otherwise can't replace into screw bell horns. I wouldn't do that.

With a Tank case (other colleagues use heavy reinforced rifle cases), you're stuck dragging it around all over town on wheels. And if you're traveling within or too Europe, lemme tell you those cobblestone streets are reeeeallly fun......

I much, much prefer the first situation and so for me, screw-bell was just a no-brainer for my modern trombone.

Edit: sorry there's two parallel threads on the topic of screw-bells so I got mixed up over which thread this was. I just got that you're talking in terms of having a vintage bell cut, so that makes more sense. I think the reality for me would be that if I played mostly modern trombone and had to travel a lot, either my main horn would be screw-bell, or if my main horn were a vintage instrument I don't want to risk cutting I'd leave that horn home when traveling and have a second, screw-bell instrument (or bell section that fits on the same slide) for that purpose.

Yeah, cobblestones and a roller tank case sounds like a horrible day.

Thanks for the insight. And yeah, we always seem to get parallel threads here which is confusing. I think if you can get a purpose made screwbell horn for travel, that's the way. If I had, say, a beryllium-copper bell Minick 88, I'd put that thing in a flight case or not travel at all with it. Cutting that would probably ruin it.

Fun fact! Converting a beryllium bell to a screwbell is potentially very hazardous if the tech doesn't know what they are cutting. Highly not recommended! Were those things even labeled?