Bach 12 Questions

[HBack]

Hello!

Apologies in advance if this has been covered elsewhere...I did a search and didn't see much...

I have a few questions about Bach 12 trombones, and their variations.

First - are Bach 12 and LT12 models still in production? I don't see them listed in recent Bach catalogs online. If available, are they going to be comparable to the older versions of these horns?

Next - how big is the difference in the 12 vs. the LT12 model? What are your perceptions on this?

Next - What is the difference between the Bach 12 bell and the Bach 16 or 16M Bell? Are they exactly the same? If not, what is different, and how do they compare?

Next - why do you suppose that the Bach 16 does not have a counterweight, but the 12 models do? are they not relatively or closely the same weight/balance?

And - Bell material - what are your thoughts on this model in yellow brass vs. gold brass? Was it ever available in the sterling plus material? Anyone have one with other than yellow brass?

For background, I have played a really nice gold plated King 3B almost exclusively for the past 25 years or so. In recent times, I have started to also dabble with a nice sounding Bach LT 16M, which feels perhaps a bit warmer and darker than the 3B, but perhaps doesn't have the same "forward" presence as the 3B (at least in my perspective). I'm figuring the 12 is going to be brighter and perhaps "zippier" than the 16M, but curious how the different variations of this model may match up against the 16 M and the 3B.

I wish there was an opportunity to try the different horns back to back - longing for the old days of the Giardinelli store in NYC!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this.

[drnim]

I've found a little bit of info on Bach Loyalist that might answer a couple of your questions.

On the Bach trombone models page, it says that the 12 is .500" bore (as opposed to the 16, which is .490/.510"). It seems to have a 7.5" bell, whereas the 16 has a 7" bell.

The Mandrels page suggests that the 16 and 12 share the same mandel, #425, despite their bells being different sizes.

I haven't confirmed the accuracy of this info; maybe someone more in the know can help.

[Burgerbob]

A good 12 might be a bit more zippy than a 16M, but not in a massive way. That's kind of just not what Bachs do in comparison to Kings.

The bells are the same, though of course the 16M (usually) has the open gooseneck option. They're all 7.5 inches... Never seen a 7 inch 16 though I'm sure some old ones are.

[Briande]

This is a pretty good video where he explains the differences in Bach small bores:

[RJMason]

It is unclear to me whether they are still available. I would assume they are but maybe special order as Conn Selmer consolidates Thor trombone lines.

A well assembled example should play very close to vintage models. The problem is that most of the newer Bachs are not coming out of the factory built and assembled as well as vintage examples. And Bachs have always been inconsistent for their whole existence.

The 12 and LT12 are very different outer slides. The normal slide is yellow brass with nickel oversleeves which makes the slide heavier and generate more inertia. It may be more difficult to play quickly on it however the sound is quite warm and punchy and can get quite powerful. These slides fell out of vogue during certain periods but I think they are being recognized for their usefulness again.

The LT slide has no oversleeves and is made entirely of nickel silver. This is the preferred outer slide for the 12 in most examples. It is not feather weight but noticeably quicker than a normal 12 slide. Nickel Silver tends to reflect the sound wave quicker so the articulations sound snappier and the sound becomes a tad less broad and more direct. Sometimes players balance this out with a Bach gold Brass (80/20 copper to zinc) bell for more color and breadth of sound. The LT12G is rare but a wonderful trombone.

Bach 12 and 16 bells are the same. Variations exist for horns built in New York (7 inch, different mandrel, etc) and custom orders. 7.5 is the standard size as of Bach’s move to Elkhart, IN 1965 onward.

Both horns are available with and without a counterweight. I don’t find them to be too front heavy. It is more personal preference. Some think the weight helps with projection and focus. I personally like my small Bach without.

A sterling silver 12 is quite rare. I have only seen two in the wild. The sterling bells were an idea and trend in the 80s early 90s but didn’t quite catch on. I think you are better off with a yellow bell.

If you are mostly playing lead I’d go for a LT12. If you do more orchestral work but want a small Bach I would go 12. If you want an all around small Bach to use as a soloist with as much color as possible and dexterity I would go LT12G. I would try as many IN PERSON as possible and not roll the dice on an online order unless an trusted colleague or player can give it a test and vouch for it.

I very much love these horns but I currently play a Corporation 12 yellow bell on a .490 bore 8 slide in yellow brass with the oversleeves removed so LT. thus ends my Ted talk lol

[HBack]

I've found a little bit of info on Bach Loyalist that might answer a couple of your questions.

On the Bach trombone models page, it says that the 12 is .500" bore (as opposed to the 16, which is .490/.510"). It seems to have a 7.5" bell, whereas the 16 has a 7" bell.

The Mandrels page suggests that the 16 and 12 share the same mandel, #425, despite their bells being different sizes.

I haven't confirmed the accuracy of this info; maybe someone more in the know can help.

Thank you for taking the time to reply!

[HBack]

A good 12 might be a bit more zippy than a 16M, but not in a massive way. That's kind of just not what Bachs do in comparison to Kings.

The bells are the same, though of course the 16M (usually) has the open gooseneck option. They're all 7.5 inches... Never seen a 7 inch 16 though I'm sure some old ones are.

Thanks for your info, and for taking the time. So, as I have been learning, the 12 and 16M both share the same bell size/shape, but the 12 does not have the open gooseneck. Interesting, and good to know!

[HBack]

This is a pretty good video where he explains the differences in Bach small bores:

Thanks for this - had not seen it before. Interesting to note that this video was made by the son of famed arranger/trombonist Billy Byers. Some interesting info here!

[HBack]

It is unclear to me whether they are still available. I would assume they are but maybe special order as Conn Selmer consolidates Thor trombone lines.

A well assembled example should play very close to vintage models. The problem is that most of the newer Bachs are not coming out of the factory built and assembled as well as vintage examples. And Bachs have always been inconsistent for their whole existence.

The 12 and LT12 are very different outer slides. The normal slide is yellow brass with nickel oversleeves which makes the slide heavier and generate more inertia. It may be more difficult to play quickly on it however the sound is quite warm and punchy and can get quite powerful. These slides fell out of vogue during certain periods but I think they are being recognized for their usefulness again.

The LT slide has no oversleeves and is made entirely of nickel silver. This is the preferred outer slide for the 12 in most examples. It is not feather weight but noticeably quicker than a normal 12 slide. Nickel Silver tends to reflect the sound wave quicker so the articulations sound snappier and the sound becomes a tad less broad and more direct. Sometimes players balance this out with a Bach gold Brass (80/20 copper to zinc) bell for more color and breadth of sound. The LT12G is rare but a wonderful trombone.

Bach 12 and 16 bells are the same. Variations exist for horns built in New York (7 inch, different mandrel, etc) and custom orders. 7.5 is the standard size as of Bach’s move to Elkhart, IN 1965 onward.

Both horns are available with and without a counterweight. I don’t find them to be too front heavy. It is more personal preference. Some think the weight helps with projection and focus. I personally like my small Bach without.

A sterling silver 12 is quite rare. I have only seen two in the wild. The sterling bells were an idea and trend in the 80s early 90s but didn’t quite catch on. I think you are better off with a yellow bell.

If you are mostly playing lead I’d go for a LT12. If you do more orchestral work but want a small Bach I would go 12. If you want an all around small Bach to use as a soloist with as much color as possible and dexterity I would go LT12G. I would try as many IN PERSON as possible and not roll the dice on an online order unless an trusted colleague or player can give it a test and vouch for it.

I very much love these horns but I currently play a Corporation 12 yellow bell on a .490 bore 8 slide in yellow brass with the oversleeves removed so LT. thus ends my Ted talk lol

Thank you very much for taking the time to share this very helpful post!!!! I appreciate it very much!!! I wish there was an easy way to play all of these in person, as you suggest! Thank you again!!!!

[Finetales]

Last summer I played a 12 (maybe LT12? Don't remember. No counterweight though) that was an absolute laser beam. Might have even been punchier than my extra-punchy 3B, it was ridiculous. Made me want one!

[octavposaune]

As soneone who owns a few Bach small bores all I can tell you is that they vary, and it's a lot.

Aidan has played all of mine small Bach except one in a friends possession.

I have an early 16M without the open neckpipe, its super hot and forward sounding, regardless of slide, my silver plated 12 is bizarrely dark, so much so that it really sounds like a 36, but plays small. That 12 is an outlier for sure. A MV16 with a french bead bell and gold slide tubes makes the most beautiful combo jazz sound you can imagine.

My generalization about 12s and I have played a number of them, is that generally speaking they play more evenly and articulately than most 16Ms. What Bachs don't seem to do well enough is put out enough sound (decibels) for modern bands. There seems to be a top limit of ease of volume. I believe this is why they have fallen out of vogue, as they can sound gorgeous and play very well. That being said, the limit of decibels may never be hit by most amatuer players and a 12 can be easy to play (examples vary, some like my outier 12 arent middle of the road).

I would never by a Bach trombone to play without having a flipping plan in case it didnt work out for me. That being said I have some really fine Bach trombones of various models, but its been 23 years of collecting to get there, also used Bachs used to be so cheap, recent price hikes in nee horns have raised used prices a lot.

Good hunting for that Bach 12!

Benn

[dukesboneman]

I don`t think the 12`s are available .
I have 2 12`s at this point in time. I had 1 more
My 1st 12 was with a standard weight slide, VERY heavy horn. Put a Jerome Callett leadpipe in it.
Played very free and dark but soooo heavy. SOLD IT
Next Lt12G with a Kanstul W6 leadpipe. Wow !! wicked upper range, Very free blowing. Thinking of selling
#3 - 1st year Elkhart horn/Mount Vernon parts. Standard weight slide with over sleeves taken off , Nickel slide crook added. original yellow brass bell traded for a 8G bell. Much more responsive and better color. For Me- Perfect amount of resistance and tonal color

[Macbone1]

What Bachs don't seem to do well enough is put out enough sound (decibels) for modern bands. There seems to be a top limit of ease of volume. I believe this is why they have fallen out of vogue, as they can sound gorgeous and play very well.

Benn

I agree...that is why Kings continue to thrive, and certain vintage brands continue to be sought after (Holton 67, etc).
Conn 100H was the same; nice light horn but not much" punch". On mine I tried aftermarket leadpipes, mouthpiece changes etc and got nowhere. Conn-Selmer has dropped them from their lineup. Bach model 12 has been dropped too.

[Pezza]

A few years back I got a 12 without trying it, figuring I could move it on if I didn't like it. It's now my main tenor!
Can play surprisingly big for a small horn with the right mouthpiece. But add pep with another.

[brassmedic]

This is a pretty good video where he explains the differences in Bach small bores:

Is that Bryant? Miss you, man.

[Macbone1]

A few years back I got a 12 without trying it, figuring I could move it on if I didn't like it. It's now my main tenor!
Can play surprisingly big for a small horn with the right mouthpiece. But add pep with another.

Another satisfied customer! The 12 sounds like it's probably superior to the Conn 100H. Probably more ergonomic too.

[slidesix]

First - are Bach 12 and LT12 models still in production? I don't see them listed in recent Bach catalogs online. If available, are they going to be comparable to the older versions of these horns?

I think the Bach 12 disappeared from the C-S website in the US site at least 2-3 years ago if not 4 years ago, from what little I can tell. Unclear if that means it is special order or if it is done and gone. I don't know.

Next - how big is the difference in the 12 vs. the LT12 model? What are your perceptions on this?

Next - What is the difference between the Bach 12 bell and the Bach 16 or 16M Bell? Are they exactly the same? If not, what is different, and how do they compare?

I have a Bach 12.

I listened to enough YouTube of Bach 12/16/16m to know that I lean more 12 (0.500 inch) than 16m (0.509 inch). I felt the same with King 2b/3b. I lean more 2b there, too. So I kind of at least knew that much about myself and the horns before going into auditioning them. The 3b and 16 sound a little more tubby/warmer/darker than the 12 and 2b to me. I prefer the clarity/forward_presence/zippiness of both the 12 and 2b. I don't know how a 3b compare to a 12, at least not directly.

I wasn't able to ever compare a 12 to 16(m) beyond recordings. So when a Bach 12 came up for sale I knew I'd want it if it played alright for me. I ordered it from BrassArk and it played alright so I decided to keep it. I'm pretty easy to please. Plus I'm not at the stage of my playing, of my technique, or my capabilities where the subtle differences of a horn matter much to me yet. I'll be there in a few more years. So, for now this is a good horn for me to grow with and to get better as I improve and recover as a player.

--

More to your initial questions, after hearing them, I knew I like the sound from the front of the Bach 12 better. Gold vs Yellow bell matters less to me than bore or slide. And I would be happy with either slide: LT lightweight nickel or standard weight brass. If both were available, I'd have preferred the zing and slide action of the LT slide over the standard one. But a LT12 was not available. But the 12 regardless of bell or slide was what I would prefer over any 16. That's how I want to sound or to be heard.

Next - why do you suppose that the Bach 16 does not have a counterweight, but the 12 models do? are they not relatively or closely the same weight/balance?

My 12 didn't have a counterweight. With the instrument with a Bach 7c mouthpiece in it, if I try to balance the instrument on one finger: the center of mass or 50:50 balance is over the right hand slide brace. If I add a H.N. White counter weight to it, the center of mass or 50:50 weight balance on one finger is over the left hand brace. So addition or lack of a simple counterweight moves the balance forward or back about 2.7 inches, brace-to-brace.

Do I care that mine lacks the counter weight? No. the balance still feels fine. it's not like it is bell heavy or hugely bell forward heavy without it. I could see where someone might still want the counter weight. I can also see where the prior owner either didn't care (like me) or preferred it without. The horn is very light!

I do wonder if the LT slide might change center of mass as well?? Mine doesn't have the LT slide, BTW. I have the standard brass one.

I have no idea on the weight balance issue with the 16.

If I had to guess, I feel like the 12 and 16 would be pretty close here. I do wonder if that counterweight addition or subtraction was due to buyer preferences (as a group of buyers over the years) more than raw weight differences. That's only a guess.

I do know that the addition or subtraction on my 1970 Corporation 12 is very small. It moves center of mass 2.7 inches. I don't know if that number is big to you or small to you. I have no real frame of reference or comparison. To me though, it seems small, minor, and not noticeable when I am playing. YMMV

And - Bell material - what are your thoughts on this model in yellow brass vs. gold brass? Was it ever available in the sterling plus material? Anyone have one with other than yellow brass?

I don't know about sterling silver. I wish. but I don't know. Mine if yellow brass. listened to yellow and gold and I found the difference minor or I slightly preferred yellow brass. This 12 I found as only available in yellow brass bell, standard slide, and no counterweight. So I bought it that way.

With that said, I'm easy to please. I'm more of a satisficer in my middle age than the maximizer I used to be in youth and as a younger adult. Gold, yellow, LT, or not. It's all good to me. The difference I hear is minor enough fro me and my goals and needs to not worry too much about it. I just need a horn that doesn't actively hurt my development as a musician and player. one that allows me to progress. Most configurations allow (for me) for that. So I go with that. I'm not here to give you life advice, or help decide on equipment for you. I trust you have been at this a while so you know what should or should not work less for you. So I trust you'll make the call that makes sense to you. For me, it's all diminishing returns. But if you are a pro or a serious amateur player, or an equipment enthusiast--it might make more difference to you than it does to me. There nothing wrong with that.

In conclusion, I do get a sense that we BOTH LIKE a more forward presentation and a zippier sound or tone. I will say between a 2b and a 12, I will choose a 2b silversonic over the 12 every time. And I do like the 12. Both are great horns. Happy hunting!