How is the development status of classical music, jazz music, and pop music around the world?

[Tubaaiyue]

Are there many audiences watching symphonies and jazz music now?

[Tubaaiyue]

I feel that the rise of short videos on the internet has impacted the traditional performance market, as many people are starting to watch those short videos, which leads to a lack of frequent thinking and aesthetic degradation

[Tubaaiyue]

In the United States, is Swing still the mainstream "genre" of jazz music? （I don't know which word to use to describe it. What I mean is, which jazz style is more popular among audiences? Are there more people who listen to symphony or jazz? ）And what are the most popular jazz bands in the United States now

[imsevimse]

I have no idea how things are in the USA. Who counts? In Sweden neither jazz nor classical music is that popular. Pop-music which is short for popular music is what young peoply want. Look at which artists can fill an arena by themselves and the music they play. Not jazz. Not symphonies. If I compare the market for jazz- and the market for classical musicians over here and guess, then classical music is more popular since more musicians are employed as classical musicians. There are very few here who can survive playing only jazz. The ones who can survive playing classical are employed mostly in the institutional orchestras.

What style of jazz? I should say over here it is "swing". 'The american songbook" is what's most appreciated.

Young people are not that interested in either. Electrified music made on computers with one front person who "sings" is what young audience listens to.

The ones who are playing jazz is the ones listening to jazz. A few older men and women too. Any young person who attends a jazz concert always makes me wonder what brought them there.That's my experience.

What's the situation in your country?

/Tom

[harrisonreed]

I couldn't find real numbers but did find this from a user on Reddit where they were discussing the same subject. This is from 2 years ago:

But here's another way to look at it:

Spotify has 574 million active listeners. Assuming each of those 3 million Miles Davis streams represents a unique listener, that means a whopping 0.005% of Spotify users listen to Miles Davis each month. That's 1 out of every 28,700 people.

Now compare that to the 1930s and 1940s, when the Billboard charts were basically wall-to-wall jazz.

I believe the situation is more dire with live music, as the bar to entry is higher.

[Tubaaiyue]

I have no idea how things are in the USA. Who counts? In Sweden neither jazz nor classical music is that popular. Pop-music which is short for popular music is what young peoply want. Look at which artists can fill an arena by themselves and the music they play. Not jazz. Not symphonies. If I compare the market for jazz- and the market for classical musicians over here and guess, then classical music is more popular since more musicians are employed as classical musicians. There are very few here who can survive playing only jazz. The ones who can survive playing classical are employed mostly in the institutional orchestras.

What style of jazz? I should say over here it is "swing". 'The american songbook" is what's most appreciated.

Young people are not that interested in either. Electrified music made on computers with one front person who "sings" is what young audience listens to.

The ones who are playing jazz is the ones listening to jazz. A few older men and women too. Any young person who attends a jazz concert always makes me wonder what brought them there.That's my experience.

What's the situation in your country?

/Tom

Hello，Tom Our situation here is somewhat similar to Sweden. In China, there are many people who listen to popular Chinese music, followed by rock music and traditional Chinese music, and then symphony. Jazz music may be one of the most niche music in China, and most Chinese audiences prefer music with lyrics. However, in recent years, what people listen to has become increasingly simplified, and many unqualified musicians have written many bad pop music works, which has impacted the development of this industry and prevented those who truly make good pop music from creating those good works. Because good music producers need to survive, they also have to create those not so good works to make money and maintain their lives

[Tubaaiyue]

I couldn't find real numbers but did find this from a user on Reddit where they were discussing the same subject. This is from 2 years ago:

But here's another way to look at it:

Spotify has 574 million active listeners. Assuming each of those 3 million Miles Davis streams represents a unique listener, that means a whopping 0.005% of Spotify users listen to Miles Davis each month. That's 1 out of every 28,700 people.

Now compare that to the 1930s and 1940s, when the Billboard charts were basically wall-to-wall jazz.

I believe the situation is more dire with live music, as the bar to entry is higher.

It seems that the development trends of the music market around the world are very similar

[Tubaaiyue]

I couldn't find real numbers but did find this from a user on Reddit where they were discussing the same subject. This is from 2 years ago:

But here's another way to look at it:

Spotify has 574 million active listeners. Assuming each of those 3 million Miles Davis streams represents a unique listener, that means a whopping 0.005% of Spotify users listen to Miles Davis each month. That's 1 out of every 28,700 people.

Now compare that to the 1930s and 1940s, when the Billboard charts were basically wall-to-wall jazz.

I believe the situation is more dire with live music, as the bar to entry is higher.

I don't know what the lowest ticket price is for live concerts in the United States, but in China, the price of a concert is around 50-200 RMB, and the attendance rate is decent. Cities with better economic conditions tend to have more attendees, such as Shanghai Symphony Orchestra concerts, where tickets are mostly sold out

[Tubaaiyue]

I couldn't find real numbers but did find this from a user on Reddit where they were discussing the same subject. This is from 2 years ago:

But here's another way to look at it:

Spotify has 574 million active listeners. Assuming each of those 3 million Miles Davis streams represents a unique listener, that means a whopping 0.005% of Spotify users listen to Miles Davis each month. That's 1 out of every 28,700 people.

Now compare that to the 1930s and 1940s, when the Billboard charts were basically wall-to-wall jazz.

I believe the situation is more dire with live music, as the bar to entry is higher.

As is well known, the development of modern music is very fast. There are now many different music styles, and people can choose their favorite music according to their preferences
But，I have always been puzzled by the proportion of listeners to classical/jazz and pop music, because the difference in proportion is too great. What is the reason for this ， Perhaps it's the economy? Perhaps it's music education?

[AndrewMeronek]

In the United States, is Swing still the mainstream "genre" of jazz music? （I don't know which word to use to describe it. What I mean is, which jazz style is more popular among audiences? Are there more people who listen to symphony or jazz? ）And what are the most popular jazz bands in the United States now

There is a difference between "popular" and "what people enjoy". I think that everyone would agree that jazz music as it is now is not popular, but go to a good jazz performance and EVERYBODY who goes absolutely loves it. It's a kind of paradox.

Also: most people think of jazz typically meaning "swing" but in the last 2 decades (correct me if I'm wrong) one of the most popular jazz orchestras has been Snarky Puppy, who perform jazz fusion style and rarely an actual "swing" groove.

[harrisonreed]

As is well known, the development of modern music is very fast. There are now many different music styles, and people can choose their favorite music according to their preferences
But，I have always been puzzled by the proportion of listeners to classical/jazz and pop music, because the difference in proportion is too great. What is the reason for this ， Perhaps it's the economy? Perhaps it's music education?

Are you an AI? There is no reason to quote me three times in a row. It's also not a mystery why pop music is so popular. It's really easy to listen to and you don't have to think. And it's existed in a form similar to what we have today since ancient Greek times. People have been singing about love with guitars (or their Greek predecessors) using the same chord progressions since then. It's got nothing to do with the economy.

I thought maybe you were just earnest and using a translator, but this post feels like an AI bot.

[Tubaaiyue]

As is well known, the development of modern music is very fast. There are now many different music styles, and people can choose their favorite music according to their preferences
But，I have always been puzzled by the proportion of listeners to classical/jazz and pop music, because the difference in proportion is too great. What is the reason for this ， Perhaps it's the economy? Perhaps it's music education?

Are you an AI? There is no reason to quote me three times in a row. It's also not a mystery why pop music is so popular. It's really easy to listen to and you don't have to think. And it's existed in a form similar to what we have today since ancient Greek times. People have been singing about love with guitars (or their Greek predecessors) using the same chord progressions since then. It's got nothing to do with the economy.

I thought maybe you were just earnest and using a translator, but this post feels like an AI bot.

是的，我使用了翻译，因为据我了解这个论坛主要是英语进行沟通 （Yes, I used a translator because as far as I know, this forum mainly communicates in English）

[Tubaaiyue]

I usually quote when answering other people's questions, so that the person being quoted can see my reply to their post. If I make you angry by doing so, I'm sorry and I will reduce the number of times I quote other people's posts in the future

[ghmerrill]

Last night my wife and I went to a performance (at Duke University) of the Julia Keefe Indignous Big Band https://www.juliakeefe.com/julia-keefe- ... s-big-band. Independent of any of the socio-political context and motivation underlying the band, it really was nothing short of fantastic. Absolutely super performance with original music played to a full house. Definitely not "swing", but original big band jazz music -- including vocals -- that's not weird (well, one piece was weird) or painful to listen to -- at least partly based on "indigenous" rhythms and contributions across the years from "indigenous people" in the Americas. So a kind of "fusion" approach. A truly great experience. They seem to be on a tour now (having just done another performance at Univ. of MIchigan).

What was the audience like? Well, it was partly drawn from an academic community, but went beyond that. I'd guess the average age of attendants was in their 60s. Yes, the band has been largely supported by major grants to get up and running, but it appears to be gaining real steam on its own -- and very well deserved from what we saw last night.

[harrisonreed]

I usually quote when answering other people's questions, so that the person being quoted can see my reply to their post. If I make you angry by doing so, I'm sorry and I will reduce the number of times I quote other people's posts in the future

No, quoting is great, it's just unusual to quote the same thing three different times in three different posts one after the other. In that sense, I get notified three separate times over the span of a few minutes.

You could take a second and quote once with all three of your ideas in one post. I'm not mad, it's just unusual that's all.

Your topics have all been interesting and it is refreshing to have Chinese citizens posting on the forum, to be honest. I don't want to discourage you. I'm all about this place being international and friendly for everyone.

[ghmerrill]

You could take a second and quote once with all three of your ideas in one post. I'm not mad, it's just unusual that's all.

Or, if you're like me and often have second (or third or ...) thoughts, you can simply edit your original post. TromboneChat is quite forgiving of that, and you can often do such editing very quickly and before many people have seen the original.

[Tubaaiyue]

You could take a second and quote once with all three of your ideas in one post. I'm not mad, it's just unusual that's all.

Or, if you're like me and often have second (or third or ...) thoughts, you can simply edit your original post. TromboneChat is quite forgiving of that, and you can often do such editing very quickly and before many people have seen the original.

Ok, thank you.

[JTeagarden]

In the US, the bulk of the audience at orchestra concerts is older, a sea of gray heads, at least on the East Coast and Midwest, it's a shame this music doesn't seem to touch younger audiences.

From my recent experience, similar result to jazz in its different flavors, even if the players themselves are often younger.

My experience in Germany was that the audience was younger, but that was almost 25 years ago.

[ghmerrill]

it's a shame this music doesn't seem to touch younger audiences.

This conclusion may be unwarranted based on an analysis of the audience at concert venues themselves. Younger listeners may well be "attending" videos of the concert on YouTube (or other "venues"), on their phones, via Alexa, etc.

As a related example, most of Tuba Skinny's fan base comes from YouTube and downloads from their web site -- rather than street audiences in New Orleans or audiences at the (sometimes at least slightly odd, and generally small) venues they play on their tours. I'm sure this is true of other groups as well.

I'm not saying that there is a vast younger audience for "jazz" (in its various forms), but rather that I don't think we have a very good estimate of how large the audience is, based on anecdotal evidence of in-person performances. Also, people may listen under a variety of "non-traditional (?)" circumstances. My wife, for example, almost always cranks up Alexa to put some jazz on (at high volume) while she's doing dishes.

Observations about attendance at (for lack of a better term) historically typical venues may no longer be the significant indicator of "audience" size and type that we've taken it to be in the past.

[harrisonreed]

I believe that orchestral music is greatly appreciated by younger audiences in almost exactly the same way opera orchestras were appreciated by young people in the 1700's. You went to see the Opera for the whole package. Probably not for the orchestra.

Now people watch movies, which generally have a lot of orchestral music in them. Lots of young people know how to hum the main themes from Harry Potter, LOTR, Star Wars, etc.

This is unlike, say, cubism which is basically dead and gone. I don't think anyone is sad about that, either.

[ghmerrill]

I believe that orchestral music is greatly appreciated by younger audiences in almost exactly the same way opera orchestras were appreciated by young people in the 1700's. You went to see the Opera for the whole package. Probably not for the orchestra.

Yeah, and you were of a particular social and financial class. Now I think it's even more of a hassle and expense.

[JTeagarden]

it's a shame this music doesn't seem to touch younger audiences.

This conclusion may be unwarranted based on an analysis of the audience at concert venues themselves. Younger listeners may well be "attending" videos of the concert on YouTube (or other "venues"), on their phones, via Alexa, etc.

Observations about attendance at (for lack of a better term) historically typical venues may no longer be the significant indicator of "audience" size and type that we've taken it to be in the past.

Show me a full-sized orchestra sustained by videos, anywhere, and I will concede the point.

[harrisonreed]

This conclusion may be unwarranted based on an analysis of the audience at concert venues themselves. Younger listeners may well be "attending" videos of the concert on YouTube (or other "venues"), on their phones, via Alexa, etc.

Observations about attendance at (for lack of a better term) historically typical venues may no longer be the significant indicator of "audience" size and type that we've taken it to be in the past.

Show me a full-sized orchestra sustained by videos, anywhere, and I will concede the point.

[JTeagarden]

Great musicians, at a recording session, not sure what it is offered in evidence of, though, other than kicking ass!

[ghmerrill]

Show me a full-sized orchestra sustained by videos, anywhere, and I will concede the point.

I took the point to be about music reaching certain audiences, and not about how the performing organizations are sustained.

[edited to correct misquote]

[harrisonreed]

Great musicians, at a recording session, not sure what it is offered in evidence of, though, other than kicking ass!

Yes they are recording for a video/movie/film. Which is pretty much all they do, full time.

Therefore, this orchestra is sustained entirely by people watching videos. You asked for an orchestra, anywhere, doing that - I deliver!

No they aren't conventional. But it does exist. Its members are paid for by anticipated revenue (via investment) from future ticket sales of videos.

[JTeagarden]

Great musicians, at a recording session, not sure what it is offered in evidence of, though, other than kicking ass!

Yes they are recording for a video/movie/film. Which is pretty much all they do, full time.

Therefore, this orchestra is sustained entirely by people watching videos. You asked for an orchestra, anywhere, doing that - I deliver!

I see it, I was thinking more along the lines of people sitting at home, watching a video of them performing. The older I get, the less connected to the pulse of "what's happening" I become!

[tbdana]

Great musicians, at a recording session, not sure what it is offered in evidence of, though, other than kicking ass!

Yes they are recording for a video/movie/film. Which is pretty much all they do, full time.

Therefore, this orchestra is sustained entirely by people watching videos. You asked for an orchestra, anywhere, doing that - I deliver!

No they aren't conventional. But it does exist. Its members are paid for by anticipated revenue (via investment) from future ticket sales of videos.

The only problem with that is that this isn't really "an orchestra" in the sense of a specific body or organization. This is a group of musicians hired to work together for three hours. I know the caption says "Hollywood Studio Symphony," but it really isn't that, except in the sense that it's orchestral, in Hollywood, and in a studio.

The use of the "Hollywood Studio Symphony" name is part of a contract negotiated between the AFM and the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers to provide an incentive for soundtracks to be recorded with Los Angeles musicians instead of foreign musicians and recording venues (often in London, Toronto, and Prague) who were cheaper.

BTW I see Alex Iles in the middle of the trombones. To his right possibly Steve Holtman, just based on the hair. They are engaged for three hours (or six, if it's a double). After that, this orchestra is no more, and the personnel on the next session could be wildly different. Of course, in practicality and by human nature, there is often much overlap. And most of these musicians do lots of other things, not just this. Alex, for instance, plays in big bands, on record dates, in pit shows, etc.

I don't know if any of this changes your point, but thought I'd just point out that it's an ad hoc orchestra, not an established organization.

[harrisonreed]

The only problem with that is that this isn't really "an orchestra" in the sense of a specific body or organization.

I alluded to this, acknowledging that it is not conventional. But I feel like if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. I'm sure most sessions have largely the same personnel, but that is just a guess. It's not *not* an orchestra just because it's essentially all pinch hitters. Also, I feel like an orchestra "sustained entirely by video" would operate with this exact business model.

The bigger point I was making earlier, as to the general lament about orchestral music not being attended by young people, was that orchestral music is actually listened to a lot by younger people, it's just incidental or thematic film music.

[ghmerrill]

I think that everyone would agree that jazz music as it is now is not popular, but go to a good jazz performance and EVERYBODY who goes absolutely loves it. It's a kind of paradox.

No more paradoxical than observing that attendance at dressage performances or exhibitions isn't a popular activity, but that everybody who goes absolutely love it. Indeed, when we were in Vienna my wife absolutely had to attend a daily workout of the horses at the Spanish Riding School. Audiences (and opportunities) for that are not huge, but everyone who was there absolutely loved it (well, maybe not I so much). Similarly for Alphorn recitals, I would guess. I'm not sure exactly what this says about jazz relative to dressage events and Alphorn events.

I'm also -- in this context -- unsure of what "young" or "younger" means. Does it mean, say, "below 60", or more like "below 40"? Or younger? I don't think attendance among the genuinely "younger" segment of the population has ever been substantial for orchestral music, nor for jazz (except possibly in venues where drinking and dancing were also part of the experience).