Lefreque plates...

[Elow]

They seem too good to be true, but steve mead and dunwoody mirvil use them so i imagine they have some use. Anyone here use them? I cant see how adding a small plate can somehow produce Purer overtones Better tuning Easier playing Better slurring Surround projection Extended dynamics (from their website). How does a plate help you slur? If this were a thing, why wouldnt it be part of the actual instrument that was just soldered on? I tried one but was pretty naive and couldnt tell the difference, but i also couldnt tell the different in a 3G and a 6 1/2 AL.

[harrisonreed]

Hahahaha! I couldn't resist!

I imagine it has a bigger effect than most people would think. But it could be a negative effect.

[Elow]

Hahahaha! I couldn't resist!

I imagine it has a bigger effect than most people would think. But it could be a negative effect.

I can finally become carl fontana

[BGuttman]

Gee. All that stuff and about 6 hours a day of practice for 10 years!

[harrisonreed]

Gee. All that stuff and about 6 hours a day of practice for 10 years!

I hope you mean Fontana. Please, no one try to sound like my video, which is supposed to be a joke.

[brassmedic]

I think there have already been threads on this, but I do know people who use these. I think it's possible they do something, but I don't see how it's possible for them to do what their website claims they do. It says:

Most wind instruments consist of two or more segments (i.e. mouthpiece/receiver, head joint/body/foot joint etc.) The joints between these segments influence the quality of sound in your instrument. LefreQue offers a revolutionary way to overcome the acoustical impact.

We want to help all wind players to create their best sound. How? LefreQue bridges the frequency-dependent resistance of the joints, so your tone can move freely through the material of the instrument.

O.K., right off the bat, tone does not "move through the material of the instrument". A standing wave is generated within the bore of the instrument, it does not move through the walls of the instrument. I think the tone can be affected by the vibration of the walls, but it is not generated there. Their theory, I guess, is that your tone is somehow interrupted by the connections between the segments of your instrument, and that their product repairs this. I think it's much more likely it is in fact dampening vibrations, not "bridging" them. There are lots of devices that are designed to dampen vibration: weighted valve caps, heavy mouthpiece blanks, etc. Some people claim that counterweights affect the tone, or even the rubber tip at the end of the trombone slide.

Steven Mead has a LefreQue attached to the outside of the upper bow of his euphonium. But that's not a joint; it's in the middle of a solid section of tubing. So obviously their claim that it "bridges joints" can't be true, or at least it's not consistent with what Steven Mead thinks it's doing.

So yeah, it's likely it does something, but not what they claim. Why aren't all instruments built with these? Because not everyone wants the same thing. It's like asking why all instruments aren't built with gold brass bells, or why not all trumpets have rotary valves, or why all trombone players don't use Ralph Sauer slide braces.

[Kdanielsen]

I swear to god that the earplug wedged into the harmonic bridge on my bass makes it play better.

[harrisonreed]

I swear to god that the earplug wedged into the harmonic bridge on my bass makes it play better.

I was wondering that those were, I saw the guys at Pershings doing something weird like that that was a different color. It must've been that. That is awesome. I never knew it was actually just to hold your earplugs.

[mrdeacon]

I swear to god that the earplug wedged into the harmonic bridge on my bass makes it play better.

I was wondering that those were, I saw the guys at Pershings doing something weird like that that was a different color. It must've been that. That is awesome. I never knew it was actually just to hold your earplugs.

I've noticed french horns players do it a lot around Los Angeles. It's silly but at least you never forget them!

[GabrielRice]

My wife is a flutist who practices 4-5 hours a day, down from about 8 when she was a student. She resists all gadgetry and has bought exactly one piccolo, one flute, and two headjoints in the 28 years I've known her. I almost had to convince her to make every one of those purchases. She was convinced to try a Lefreque plate, bought one, and uses it every time she plays. It's doing something.

I haven't tried one, in part because I know I'll go down the rabbit hole.

[Bonearzt]

How about the wood in my pocket?

[timothy42b]

Hahahaha! I couldn't resist!

I imagine it has a bigger effect than most people would think. But it could be a negative effect.

Hey wait. Where did you get a room that big? Didn’t I see a video in a trailer with aluminum foil around your head?

[elmsandr]

How about the wood in my pocket?

This is a family friendly website, Eric. (sorry, sorry, trying to delete this)

Steve Mead does use them, or at least did for a while, I don't recall seeing them on his new gold horn, but I didn't look closely and don't discuss equipment when I see him, I'm not qualified for that conversation. Did that once, I wasn't helpful. However, he is a lot better than just about anybody else that I have ever known as well. By 'better' I mean ridiculously talented and meticulously prepared. I've known him and listened to him live and in rehearsals for over 25 years and I think I've heard him miss maybe two notes in that time... and that requires the widest definition of 'miss' that you can invent, so maybe he can be a little more finite in his detection of issues that I am.

That said, if I could detect the difference these made in my playing, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't need them to get any job I wanted. (Just to be clear, I am not playing with Steve Mead, I work for the Brass Band of Battle Creek in a variety of support Roles).

Cheers,
Andy

[ngrinder]

I bought the cheapest one (pair?) a few years ago at the recommendations of Joel Vaisse, a monster of a player. They definitely do something - I threw them (it?) on for a few weeks but never really felt compelled to keep them there. They definitely do something. With all the quarantine time, I gave the things a good try out again, and the only thing I can definitively say is that it adds "weight" to the sound and feel of the instrument. But just a tiny bit. Certain partials felt closer together, and I could put a bit more "power" through the horn without getting resistence. I tried them at all junctures of the instrument and felt it worked best between the mouthpiece and leadpipe.

It felt a bit similar to how lead tape affects the blow. Things hold together, but I'd say a tiny bit of brilliance was lost. I only tried it on my small horn, which has a fairly light bell. I gave it about a week, took them off, and liked how the horn felt without them more.

There make a huge variety of metals, so if you have deep pockets or access to trying them all, maybe you'll find something that works.

I do know amazing woodwind players who swear by them - I don't think it's purely snakeoil, but didn't really do it for me.

[harrisonreed]

How about the wood in my pocket?

I swear they used to sell a piece of wood that you could screw things into that you put into your pocket. Supposedly it changed the tone of any instrument. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.

[harrisonreed]

Hey wait. Where did you get a room that big? Didn’t I see a video in a trailer with aluminum foil around your head?

I built this one even deeper underground, below the basement with the tin foil ducts in the other video.

[BGuttman]

How about the wood in my pocket?

I swear they used to sell a piece of wood that you could screw things into that you put into your pocket. Supposedly it changed the tone of any instrument. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.

The wood thing was called a "Pocket Rocket" I could never figure out what it would do to your sound. On the other hand there is a piece of Snake Oil called the Acousti-Coil. Looks like something from the Annals of Improbable Research (AKA Ig-Nobel Prizes)

[Bonearzt]

I swear they used to sell a piece of wood that you could screw things into that you put into your pocket. Supposedly it changed the tone of any instrument. Dumbest thing I've ever seen.

The wood thing was called a "Pocket Rocket" I could never figure out what it would do to your sound. On the other hand there is a piece of Snake Oil called the Acousti-Coil. Looks like something from the Annals of Improbable Research (AKA Ig-Nobel Prizes)

Yeah that chunk o' wood was supposed to enhance the resonance of your playing...same with the acousti-coil-a thin piece of plastic rolled up and stuck up yer...tuning slide....

Oh the crap people come up with!!!


Eric

[dukesboneman]

I have tried these and from the performer end of the horn, They do make a difference.
The guys in my trombone quartet listened to me with and without and they noticed a difference and were not told which was which

[8parktoollover]

I'd imagine that there would be very little effect considering that it's placed in a spot were ther aree 3 tuves seperaring the plate and the tube that the air goes thru. I tried one once and I only noticed a very minimal difference.

[TuckerWoerner]

I work for a store that is a dealer, so I've had the chance to try these extensively and meet with reps for training. These are most popular with our flute customers (perhaps the size and weight of the LeFreque in proportion to instrument makes the difference more apparent).

My take on it is that they definitely make a difference, but I'm not entirely convinced they work in the way the manufacturer says (i.e. harmonic bridging). I can hear a huge difference when most customers try these, and there is an audible difference between different materials. When I tried them on trombone I felt a big difference, and those listening said they could hear one as well. I think adding weight to any part of the instrument is going to make a difference in how it feels and the feedback you get as a player. One way or another you'll play the instrument differently. If they work for you, great. It's not going to fix bad technique.

[Elow]

If they work for you, great. It's not going to fix bad technique.

I guess the only solution to bad technique is a 20k thein

[8parktoollover]

I work for a store that is a dealer, so I've had the chance to try these extensively and meet with reps for training. These are most popular with our flute customers (perhaps the size and weight of the LeFreque in proportion to instrument makes the difference more apparent).

My take on it is that they definitely make a difference, but I'm not entirely convinced they work in the way the manufacturer says (i.e. harmonic bridging). I can hear a huge difference when most customers try these, and there is an audible difference between different materials. When I tried them on trombone I felt a big difference, and those listening said they could hear one as well. I think adding weight to any part of the instrument is going to make a difference in how it feels and the feedback you get as a player. One way or another you'll play the instrument differently. If they work for you, great. It's not going to fix bad technique.

The one I tried belonged to my teacher and she said that she only used it on small bore. Maybe it works better on lighter instruments.

[Macbone1]

[/quote]
I guess the only solution to bad technique is a 20k Thein
[/quote]

Or a top of the line Shires

[Bonearzt]

Gee. All that stuff and about 6 hours a day of practice for 10 years!

Just gotta think....

[dukesboneman]

I was a sceptic and I was at a Trombone Quartet rehearsal and one of the guys had one on his horn.
"Do these things really make a difference?"
So I played my 42BO for the other 3 on The Tuba Mirum solo.
Then I played it with the Lefreque on my horn.
I was blown away by the difference. Better slotting, Better clarity, Better projection.
I was impressed but the price is nuts.
However , They do make a difference

[harrisonreed]

When I was in Japan they had plastic Lefreques in the store you could buy. I don't know if these were just so you could test if it fit your instrument, or what, but they were cheaper than the platinum ones.

If platinum and gold make such a huge difference in their own way, plastic therefore must also make its own difference.

I'm not going to knock it more than my tongue in cheek video. I still wrap crap around my bell from time to time - all this stuff changes the way the horn plays.

[Macbone1]

harrisonreed, is that bell thing also a pencil holder?

[harrisonreed]

harrisonreed, is that bell thing also a pencil holder?

No it holds what appear to be fancy shelf pegs!

[Macbone1]

harrisonreed, is that bell thing also a pencil holder?

No it holds what appear to be fancy shelf pegs!

[ghmerrill]

When I was in Japan they had plastic Lefreques in the store you could buy. I don't know if these were just so you could test if it fit your instrument, or what, but they were cheaper than the platinum ones.

According to my friendly digital consultant, a plastic Lefreque plate "lowers brightness", "shortens sustain slightly", and "emphasizes midrange over brilliance". It is best for "bright or edgy instruments," "players wanting a more rounded, mellow sound," and "students or ensemble players prioritizing blend over projection."

My consultant also provided a side-by-side comparison chart of different "aspects" for plastic vs. metal plates, summarizing with "Plastic plates tame and smooth" while "Metal plates energize and clarify". It then provided a more detailed account of the differences in the specific case of trombones, noting that trombonists usually place them on the "bell tail/flare", the tuning slide, a valve casing, or the slide receiver." It further recommends that "if your horn is too bright or edgy", "plastic can help, but metal (brass or gold) usually works better in the long-term," while "If your horn is dull, stuffy, or unfocused, metal LefreQue is almost always the win" (I find that claim difficult to interpret). I was then offered the opportunity for even more insight if I would provide information concerning whether I was playing tenor or bass; orchestral, jazz, or commercial; or cared to specify how I wished my sound to be different.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to pursue those details at this time. I need to get back to cleaning my trombone, and a crew is outside repairing my septic system and I need to consult with them.

But I'll bet you're sorry you passed up the opportunity to get one of those plastic plates.

[Burgerbob]

I shared this elsewhere a couple years ago, but at NAMM I was playing a Chinese baritone horn (English style). It was a good player and I was having fun noodling on it. The LeFreque booth was nearby, and he came over with some plates for us to try (Finetales was there as well).

He put a couple on the baritone, one on the leadpipe/mouthpiece and another somewhere else.

The difference in feedback and playability was immense. It felt like the instrument had just gained $3000 in build quality or something. I am not joking- it was a night and day difference.

I'm allergic to spending that much on little bits, so thankfully I just ignored that experience and moved on with my life- but they make a big difference.

[harrisonreed]

No it holds what appear to be fancy shelf pegs!

The video was a joke, but I in fact do use my harmonic pillars on my Edwards trombone, and think they are a great bit of kit. There is a small adjustment I make depending on how large the room is that I'm playing in, which really helps make the horn blow the same in tiny practice rooms vs large rooms. It's a real effect. I have no doubt the Lefreques do something similar.

I do also think that wrapping the throat of the bell increases the projection of the horn and makes the sound darker. Anyone can try it without any ill effect to their horn. Put a soft paper towel on the throat of your bell, you can hold it together with a piece of scotch tape. Then wrap something like electrical tape around the paper towel, in the area you see in my video. It should be pretty tight. The paper towel will prevent the black adhesive from the electrical tape from getting on the finish of your bell. When it's thick enough, you can try sliding the wrap (the paper towel should allow it to slide a bit) down to increase the tension on the bell. When you are (probably inevitably) done with having your bell wrapped, slide it up to loosen it and carefully cut it off, or just unravel the tape.

Don't knock it til you try it.

[ghmerrill]

Don't knock it til you try it.

To some degree, this follows from the theorem (within physics/acoustics) that (roughly put) "Things that affect vibration affect sound."

The practical questions are whether, and under what conditions, it matters; to what degree; and whether it's worth the trouble.

[ghmerrill]

Considering some of Harrison's observations, it occurs to me that I already may have added the moral equivalent of a Lefreque plate on my bass trombone.

It's just that I've been thinking of it as a "Hickey's Trombone Counterweight Kit -- generic". It cost me -- as I recall -- $29.95 a few years ago. I guess I'm already ahead on that, since it now lists for $105.95.

Or ... given where it's placed ... it might be more accurate to compare it to the Edwards Harmonic Brace Pillar.

[harrisonreed]

It's okay to use these things. The stakes are just higher when you do in public, that's all. And that's only if you care about what people might think of your equipment.

Some of the best trombone playing I've ever heard was C. Lindberg in Tokyo, 2023. He had his bell wrapped in blue suede at the throat. It sounded insane listening to it live.

He also played at the Kennedy Center for a 30 minute piece and it was obvious that his trombone bell had been crushed at the airport. He did not care. It sounded better than the CD.

[trombonedemon]

I have two on my horn. Burger Bob is spot on. Im getting great feed back from my woodwinds. Here is a Pic of where I put them.

[SwissTbone]

Im getting great feed back from my woodwinds.

Is that a good thing?

[ghmerrill]

Have you ever calculated how much extra weight you have on the horn ... with the cord, wire, heavy caps, leather wraps, and Lefreque plates? At least you don't seem to need a counterweight. .

[trombonedemon]

Have you ever calculated how much extra weight you have on the horn ... with the cord, wire, heavy caps, leather wraps, and Lefreque plates? At least you don't seem to need a counterweight. .

So like, this horn is ridiculously out of balance with no tuning slide brace. More so with the 62 h slide. Just got an Olsen weight for my kids horn, at it seems a little more. That's a good point. I still use the heavy weight Long Island mp as well. Playing acquiesce was an issue for the wood winds. This seems to be a remedy.

[trombonedemon]

Have you ever calculated how much extra weight you have on the horn ... with the cord, wire, heavy caps, leather wraps, and Lefreque plates? At least you don't seem to need a counterweight. .

So like, this horn is ridiculously out of balance with no tuning slide brace. More so with the 62 h slide. Just got an Olsen weight for my kids horn, at it seems a little more. That's a good point. I still use the heavy weight Long Island mp as well. Playing acquiesce was an issue for the wood winds. This seems to be a remedy.

[hyperbolica]

If you've used a heavy weight mouthpiece, it's a similar effect. Mass of significant stiffness does make a change. If you've every tried a zircon or stainless steel rim or entire mouthpiece, you get a similar effect. Soft mass I would think could only make a negative change. People who don't like those sympathetic vibrations in the bell of 88h at F# often place a soft wrap like Harrison showed on the bell.

Personally, I don't think it's a change you can predict, and there's no clear reason for it to be an improvement. It's just something different. The effect is mostly in feedback to the user. Harmonic bridge is placed right next to your ear for a reason. The vibrating air column vibrates the metal in the horn. The vibrating mass in turn vibrates the air around it. There is a reason the material, mass and construction of a trombone makes a difference (albeit pretty small) on the way it sounds.

[ghmerrill]

Personally, I don't think it's a change you can predict, and there's no clear reason for it to be an improvement. It's just something different. The effect is mostly in feedback to the user.

Euphonium players get quite enamored with these from time to time. For some inexplicable reason they seem to like to buy a really expensive euphonium and then attaching things to it to make it "better". But it seems like most of the time when they try Lefreque plates, they think they get some "improvement" or "benefit" from them ... but then months later decide to just take them off and go back to the way things were. At least that's my unscientific impression of what I've seemed to see them doing.

Your feedback point is well taken. It may be part of the reason that I liked my Stork heavy top mouthpiece, though in the case of a DW piece I did prefer the regular bowl over the heavy one. There's a lot of subjectivity here that's difficult to filter out.

[Tbarh]

Emily Beynon, solo flute in the Concertgebouw in Holland uses one..She sounds like a million bucks !

[ghmerrill]

Emily Beynon, solo flute in the Concertgebouw in Holland uses one..She sounds like a million bucks !

That's interesting, but I don't seem to see a Lefreque plate in recent photos of her with a flute -- in particular not the new one she just got and that has the super-special headjoint on it. I can't imagine that Haynes was real happy about one of their major stars having to use an after-market blob of metal on one of their highest-end products in order to make it sound acceptable.

But maybe she's adding the Lefreque to it after she's done with the Haynes advertising photos.

[TromboneMonkey]

Here's an interesting study: https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ISMA2019/da ... 000095.pdf

Some notes:
1- it's only an N=5, but blinding and spectral analysis still makes that significantly more valuable to me than anecdotal data about the sound bridges

2- none of the players tested, including a professional symphonic player who uses them daily, could reliably tell the difference between an instrument with or without the bridges, when blinded

3- spectral analysis showed no meaningful differences between conditions

[harrisonreed]

Well, two of them could 70% of the time. But that's pretty unreliable.

[ghmerrill]

Here's an interesting study: https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ISMA2019/da ... 000095.pdf

Some notes:
1- it's only an N=5, but blinding and spectral analysis still makes that significantly more valuable to me than anecdotal data about the sound bridges

2- none of the players tested, including a professional symphonic player who uses them daily, could reliably tell the difference between an instrument with or without the bridges, when blinded

3- spectral analysis showed no meaningful differences between conditions

Now you've gone and ruined this with your pesky science and spectral analysis. Luckily, that will likely have no effect on sales, and there will be counterarguments to your narrow empiricist view. Besides, we KNOW that putting a lump of stuff anywhere on an instrument has SOME effect, eh? So, to quote Prof. Walther von der Vogelweide in his (in)famous Metaphysics Lecture, "There you are!".

[harrisonreed]

Here's an interesting study: https://pub.dega-akustik.de/ISMA2019/da ... 000095.pdf

Some notes:
1- it's only an N=5, but blinding and spectral analysis still makes that significantly more valuable to me than anecdotal data about the sound bridges

2- none of the players tested, including a professional symphonic player who uses them daily, could reliably tell the difference between an instrument with or without the bridges, when blinded

3- spectral analysis showed no meaningful differences between conditions

Now you've gone and ruined this with your pesky science and spectral analysis. Luckily, that will likely have no effect on sales, and there will be counterarguments to your narrow empiricist view. Besides, we KNOW that putting a lump of stuff anywhere on an instrument has SOME effect, eh? So, to quote Prof. Walther von der Vogelweide in his (in)famous Metaphysics Lecture, "There you are!".

To be fair to LeFreque users, the spectral analysis appeared to be significantly different in the frequencies the trumpet actually plays at. I don't know why they analyzed this much:

Screenshot_20260210_093151_Chrome.jpg

When the trumpet only plays in this register:

Screenshot_20260210_093221_Chrome.jpg

Yes, the overtones higher than that contribute to the overall sound, but the main component from most notes on the trumpet will be from *BELOW* 1000hz, with the highest normal note being C6 around 1200hz. You can see in the above image that the fundamental of whatever pitch is being played here is indeed below 1000hz (I think it is Bb4), and appears to be significantly different between using the plates and not.

The way I interpret the focused image is that without the plate, the fundamental pitch has a wider slope and takes up more of the frequency spectrum. The red line (with plate) goes up to the same amplitude but is *more focused* on the target frequency of the pitch. There is less amplitude of the surrounding spectrum. This appears to be the case on every overtone as well, with the red line having a lower aplitude overall, except at the peak of each target frequency where it matches and often surpasses blue. This means each overtone is more focused. You can see in the PDF better, that the first few overtones have a higher *red* amplitude, and unless I'm really mistaken the way decibels work is logarithmic -- so as you approach the top of the chart, the differences are actually greater than the differences at the bottom of the chart. So not only are the "waste" frequencies around the target frequency less emphasized with the plate, the target frequency appears to be either the same amplitude or (in the first few overtones) even more emphasized by several decibels at peak amplitude (where decibels are "worth more").

The researchers are completely ignoring this.

[ghmerrill]

This means each overtone is more focused. ... So not only are the "waste" frequencies around the target frequency less emphasized with the plate, the target frequency appears to be either the same amplitude or (in the first few overtones) even more emphasized by several decibels at peak amplitude (where decibels are "worth more").

So I'm wondering ... Is this really what you want: A kind of "pure" frequency? Are those "waste" frequencies really "waste" -- or are they "added richness" of some sort that is now being filtered out? I don't have an axe to grind here -- just wondering if what you "gain" is really a gain in some appropriate musical sense. Or are you buying an expensive instrument that the designer/maker has worked hard to enrich with certain overtones, and then you slap a damper on it to filter those out? Or is that a totally misguided way to look at it?