Eight position tenor trombone

[timbone]

I ran across this in my stack of stuff and thought some of you may find it interesting. This was given to me by the factory manager Jacques Gaudet back when I worked for Courtois. Courtois has always been an innovative company and this is from 1911. Here you have a straight tenor with a back position or "arriere" position which gives the player a full b natural in the (very) closed position. Also you may see that the spit valve is spring loaded and also acts as the slide bumper. Why did these ideas fall out of favor?

Arriere position trombone circa 1911.pdf

[slidesix]

These are interesting ideas and very good in one sense but like most engineering ideas there is always a tradeoff and is that tradeoff worth what you give in order to get it. Meaning: TINSTAAFL (there is no such thing as a free lunch) So since this is the internet, allow me to share my thoughts even though I am not anyway near an expert. (internet in a nutshell, amirite??!). Let's dig in!

Here you have a straight tenor with a back position or "arriere" position which gives the player a full b natural in the (very) closed position. ... Why did these ideas fall out of favor? Arriere position trombone circa 1911.pdf

I think we landed on a 7 position trombone slide on a tenor trombone as a matter of "works best in most cases". So why not 8th position? So why not a -1th (minus one or negative first) position? Wouldn't that be super convenient? Yes. Practical? Maybe. Sound good? Ah, maybe that is the issue. (and maybe the practical part, too).

Is that a -1 position? Or did you just instead tune the instrument from a Bb fundamental into a B fundamental? Plus, too, if you are altering the slide like this you are changing how the conical expansion (timbre) of the trombone works. Adding more slide here means you have to make the instrument more cylindraical in one part and thereby less conical in the other part. So the timbre should change. Will this sound good? Will players like it?

As for will players like it? Beginning players, like 5th graders will hate it. Sure now they can better play B(2) in Arriere position instead of 7th position--which may cannot reach with their arms. But, ah, beginning players love that first position in on the bumpers, all the way in. This is the home base. They already have enough challenges with a Conn 88H/8H slide or Benge 190F slide with springs. Many don't want to tune off the bumpers or off springs. They need the comfort of 1st all the way in.

So I think for many this Arriere position, while well meaning and useful, solves one problem but then introduces others. For these reasons and others I haven't thought of I can see why this either fell out of favor or never caught on.

PS: in the 19th century I think wind band settled on this tuning:
Bb: soprano pitch
Eb: alto pitch
Bb: tenor pitch
and so forth.

French horn is the exception to the rule with F pitch horns, Bb pitch horns, and F/Bb double horns. Even there, we chose "f" because it was dark and sounded nice. I don't see where an Arriere pitched "B natural" fits in there. It's not going to go with everything else. Maybe a specialized thing like "A" pitched clarinets or "C" pitched trumpets or tubas. I dunno.

OP, where do you see it fitting in? Or when would you use one? Or are you just asking, why not? Or why didnt it catch on?

Also you may see that the spit valve is spring loaded and also acts as the slide bumper. Why did these ideas fall out of favor?

Hmm. That I see as a solution to a problem I do not have. I could see this as encouraging bad behavior and having the musician be termpted to push the slide against the floor to drain the water. I think for a delicate slide, I rather not do that. Instead I would rather have the remote control or long button a string that the ArkBone aka Jay Friedman trombone has where you can empty the water without moving your hand down the slide at all. but this? WEll intentioned but a bad idea, IMO.

This is just my opinion and guess. I have not studied these horns, I have not studied this design, nor have I studied trombone history. So thanks for letting me guess and play along! have a great day!!

[slidesix]

In another way, Conn has attempted this with some of their midcentury single valve bass trombones. Where the slide is longer, it has 7.5 or 7.75 positions, which gives a useful C(2) on a single valve at 7.5+ position or the end of the slide, negating one need for a second valve for that one note. The tradeoff there is likely the same trade off here: In order to keep the same 9ft or so in first position to keep Bb in first position, they lengthen the slide section but shorten the bell section. Why does this matter? Well, again, the slide is cylindrical and the bell is mainly conical. So it alters the timbre a little bit.

You also run into the same trade off with a independent double valve bass trombone. There you end up making the gooseneck cylindrical instead of conical for that portion which again, affects timbre.

You also run into this issue on Eb alto trombones. Do you have or want 7 usable slide positions or not?

In those 2 cases, I think the consensus seems to be: those are worth the trade off. But 7.5 or 8 positions on a tenor or bass might not be. Interesting subject and debate for sure. I wonder if I am wrong? If so, that would be great for me to learn more. So I eagerly await other comments here.

[LeTromboniste]

The spring loaded spot valve was the absolute standard on French trombone of the late 19th century and early 20th century. It's quite common today on sackbut replicas, especially basses.

They're not very practical on tenor when playing standing. They're fine when playing sitting, or for long bass (whether standing or sitting)

[slidesix]

That's cool. Today I learned something new!

[timothy42b]

There have been double slide trombones made in F and Bb.

I've played one of the Bb at conferences. The slide was horrible, I guess it's hard to keep all 4 parallel, but there are some other configurations that would get around that. It would be nice in a restricted space.

You could end up with as many positions as you wanted this way.