Difference between a flugabone and a marching baritone?

[johntarr]

Hello,

I’m wondering if the differences between a flugabone (or Olds-21) and a marching baritone are similar to those between a trombone and baritone. The marching baritones that I’ve seen for sale seem to have more conical final bend out to the bell.

Can anyone who have played the two types describe their differences and/or similarities?

I can’t find a flugabone or 0-21 anywhere.

Thanks,

John

[Burgerbob]

Flugabone is basically a different wrap of a valve trombone. Might tighter tapers. Marching baritones can verge on euphonium dimensions in some cases, totally different sound and playability.

[brassmedic]

Yes the O21 is a marching trombone and is tapered more like a trombone. Marching baritones are tapered like a baritone. The Bach Mercedes marching trombone was the same as the Olds marching trombone, so if you can find one of those, it is identical other than the engraving.

[RJMason]

There was a Bach Mercedes marching baritone made during that time as well so be sure to inspect the flare diameter and bell taper before purchasing. Ask for measurements in doubt, anything above 8 inches will not be the Olds Compact Marching Valve Trombone. Also Email Sweeney Brass he collects restores modifies and sells them.

[MalecHeermans]

Yes the O21 is a marching trombone and is tapered more like a trombone. Marching baritones are tapered like a baritone. The Bach Mercedes marching trombone was the same as the Olds marching trombone, so if you can find one of those, it is identical other than the engraving.

Oh that’s interesting! How did that come about?

[JohnL]

If you're looking for an O-21, the closest equivalents would be a Reynolds TV-29, or Bach 883; all made on the same tooling, 515" bore, 8" bell. , The Blessing M-200 is the same wrap, but I seem to recall that it's a different bore.

The next closest would be the flugabones (King 1130 and Kanstul 955, along with clones too numerous to list). The King and the Kanstul are both .500" bore with an 8½" bell; I've seen clones that vary from that somewhat (the Lake City Flugabone is listed as .492" bore with an 8.7" bell).

Both types play pretty much like a valve trombone with similar specs, maybe a little "stuffier".

As you observed, marching baritones tend to be, well, more baritone-ish. Most (with the notable exception of the King 1124/1127) are larger in bore. The general impression is an American-style baritone horn, though some of them (notably the Yamaha) approach small euphonium territory.

Yes the O21 is a marching trombone and is tapered more like a trombone. Marching baritones are tapered like a baritone. The Bach Mercedes marching trombone was the same as the Olds marching trombone, so if you can find one of those, it is identical other than the engraving.

Oh that’s interesting! How did that come about?

When Olds closed down, Bach ended up with the tooling for the Olds marching brass. I think they got the tuba and upright baritone tooling, too.

[AtomicClock]

Difference between a flugabone and a marching baritone?

Case size. A marching baritone case is enormous.

[Finetales]

I’m wondering if the differences between a flugabone (or Olds-21) and a marching baritone are similar to those between a trombone and baritone.

That's the exact difference.

A flugabone is a valve trombone wrapped like a trumpet.
A marching baritone is an American baritone wrapped like a trumpet.

The King and the Kanstul are both .500" bore with an 8½" bell; I've seen clones that vary from that somewhat (the Lake City Flugabone is listed as .492" bore with an 8.7" bell).

The Lake City is actually not a King clone, nor is any other Chinese flugabone. Most Chinese flugabones, including the Lake City, are copies of various Weril models, the later ones of which were sold up here as Dynasties.

The general impression is an American-style baritone horn, though some of them (notably the Yamaha) approach small euphonium territory.

American "baritone horn" IS a euphonium. It's just a little smaller, and a lot worse at being one than the British, French, or German ones. They're all regional forms of tenor tuba with varying degrees of success.

Marching baritones are based on American baritone dimensions (or larger, in the case of modern ones like the Yamaha), so they are really just smaller marching euphoniums. Not that much smaller, in the case of the Yamaha.

[johntarr]

Thanks for all the informative replies. While we’re at it, I’ll pose another question, if I may.

Having once owned a very nice Conn bass trumpet, I have become aware of the ergonomically aspects of larger valved instruments. The hand position on the Conn was farther away than the trombone so I found my left arm being strained and very tired. This is why I sold it. When I compare pictures of the 0-21 and the King, it seems as if the King is longer and would therefore be harder to hold.

Do any of you who have played both models notice such a difference?

Thanks again,

John

[johntarr]

Also Email Sweeney Brass he collects restores modifies and sells them.

I have contacted him and said that I would like to buy one, but he doesn’t answer.

[Finetales]

Having once owned a very nice Conn bass trumpet, I have become aware of the ergonomically aspects of larger valved instruments. The hand position on the Conn was farther away than the trombone so I found my left arm being strained and very tired. This is why I sold it. When I compare pictures of the 0-21 and the King, it seems as if the King is longer and would therefore be harder to hold.

The King is a little longer than the Olds, but still in a very natural holding position. It's not like some piston bass trumpets (like the Conn) that are very far out.

[RJMason]

I personally cannot stand the length of bass trumpets. I owned the Conn a long time ago and traded it for a nice slide trombone. The bell is way too far away for me. If you are using it in a commercial setting you are so far away from the microphone. The compact design is way better for balance, even the King, as mentioned, is a bit longer than the Olds but still very natural. The best bass trumpet I’ve tried an old Alexander rotary in C. Closer to face too. Made me realize that Bach bass trumpets are generally not THAT good

Scott is really quite busy, keep trying or give his shop a call during hours listed on the website!

[Finetales]

Rotaries are often more reasonable lengths than the piston ones. My Eb 4-valve rotary bass trumpet is as short if not shorter than my King flugabone!

The disadvantage to rotaries is that you can't play them with one hand, and the ergonomics are often much more challenging than a piston instrument.

[Leanit]

Also Email Sweeney Brass he collects restores modifies and sells them.

I have contacted him and said that I would like to buy one, but he doesn’t answer.

I have an Olds in great shape that I'd sell, along with a gig bag and its original hard case.

[AtomicClock]

What kind of gig bag? DIY?

[Leanit]

Cronkite. Like new (duh).

I don't want to hijack this thread into a classified ad. Message me if interested.

[AtomicClock]

Not shopping; just interested in what people use.
If a trumpet player can get a double or triple bag, maybe I can find something that holds both flugabone and marching baritone. You know...for all those gigs out there.

[johntarr]

Cronkite. Like new (duh).

I don't want to hijack this thread into a classified ad. Message me if interested.

PM sent

[Monkhouse]

You can use a plunger on a flugabone.

[dershem]

I have the Olds 21, a Reynolds Valve Trombone and a Bass Trumpet. Each has a different feel and sound. The bass trumpet is my least favorite, as the sound is so far away that it makes nuance a bit harder. The Olds 21 blends better with a trombone section than the valve bone, The valve bone is stuffier. If I use the same mouthpiece on all three, the sound differences are marked.

[AtomicClock]

maybe I can find something that holds both flugabone and marching baritone.

For the record, my XL double Cronkhite bag can hold both an Olds flugabone and a Dynasty baritone. All you'd have to do is build some padding/structure to keep them from crashing into each other. The slide carrier works after a fashion, but it gets pretty tight. The horns would probably stretch the leather after a while.

[hyperbolica]

What kind of gig bag? DIY?

I just use a fancy duffel bag with padding for my O21. The instrument was about $150. It would be a shame to have a bag more expensive than the horn.