Doodle tonguing - second syllable... tongue placement? Air?

[davdud101]

Looking for some guidance here. Dipping my toe into the world of doodle tonguing just to extend my techniques a little bit.

I can't seem to get a hard enough second syllable on the "-dle" (or "-tle") syllable to make a meaningful articulation. I've watched many tutorial videos and a lot of people manage to get a really clear distinction between the first and second notes. I know it's meant to be very legato, but thus far mine is so fluffy that it's as if the air isn't interrupted at all. The only way I've managed to get any distinction is by basically adding a small puff of air (I know that's wrong)

I have an overbite, and I have some sense that my front teeth being far forward sets my tongue landing spot further back in my mouth for the "dle". I only JUST realized that seconds ago, so I may have to play around with tongue placement a bit. Anyone that can offer a couple tips for just starting out with the doodle?

[Doug Elliott]

Not everyone can do it.
The second syllable is with the tip against the top of the mouth and the air pops out from under the tongue. My jaw structure is too narrow, so I can say it but not while playing.

There's another method that's sort of da-der, similar but different. I can almost do that, but it's not very useable.

[Wilktone]

It took me years before I got the second syllable to sound similar to the first one. I spent a lot of time with exercises, but one thing that I think helped a lot was doodle tonguing passages that I could easily single tongue and working to make the second syllable sound the same. It just took me a lot of time to develop the knack.

For me, the second syllable strikes very close to where the first syllable does - on the ridge behind my upper teeth.

If it helps you think about it, consider that the second syllable of doodle tonguing is different from pretty much any other standard articulation. Most articulations happen due to the back stroke (or down stroke) of the tongue. With the second syllable of doodle the articulation occurs due to the forward stroke.

The second syllable is with the tip against the top of the mouth and the air pops out from under the tongue.

I feel of it more of the air popping out from around the sides of my tongue, rather than under. Must be anatomical differences, but maybe thinking about it the air coming from the sides of the tongue might help someone get some success with it.

Dave

[Sesquitone]

Without the instrument, place your tongue to form a seal around the roof of your mouth just slightly behind your top teeth with your jaw dropped comfortably, and breath (in and out) through pursed lips otherwise "normally". The air is flowing over both sides of your tongue and in and out your mouth under your tongue.

Now, again without the instrument, start that way, blowing gently out with your lips pursed, and whisper "LOO". Then go back to the original position. And so on. In a "string-of-doodles" the "DOO" syllable becomes "LOO": the tongue dropping down is enough to give the desired legato articulation. [The "DOO" is just the initial "attack".]

In duple-time, the articulation (except for the attack) becomes more like "loodle-loodle- . . .". Your tongue is "flipping" back-and-forth on-and-off the roof of your mouth. And the air is flowing through your lips over-and-under the front of your tongue,

In triple-time, try "toodeloo-toodeloo- . . ." or "doodeloo-doodeloo . . ." (here, you do need that extra initial attack).

Now try all the above—just with the mouthpiece (with appropriate vowels for the different pitch ranges: leedle, lahdle, lawdle, . . . ). Practice that until you can't HEAR the difference between the different syllables.

Now you're ready to connect to the rest of your brass instrument (of any kind).


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[LeTromboniste]

I find that Doodle tonguing is a bit of a misnomer. The way we spell the name of the articulation is actually not what happens, and is counterproductive. When I pronounce "Doo-dle-doo" naturally, and especially if I do it slow enough to really analyse what my tongue is doing, I notice that my tongue moves twice for the "dle": once as a normal stroke including the tongue releasing normally to produce the "d", and quickly going back in place and making and maintaining contact to sustain the "l" – effectively a double stroke. It then has to move a little bit again to produce the next D, because it's not in quite the right spot when holding the L. So that's moving 4 times for two articulations. Can't be right.

When I use doodle, what actually happens is quite different. It's more like "te" (or ta, or tu, or whatever you use) followed by a held "L" (i.e. without trying to add a D in there, just a fim L). Then the third articulation, as sesquitone rightly points out, doesn't need to have a D added either. It's just a very firm release of the held L. So really, it's more like "te-l-le-l-le-l-le".

Coincidentally, here's how it's presented in the second oldest sources (afaik) that teaches it, a method by Martin Agricola dated 1545 (!) :

PXL_20260123_201623960.jpg

Little anecdote: I started teaching doodle to a student a couple years ago and and in the process finally found how to explain what I actually do and spell it out with syllables that really match what happens (at least for me), with this te-l-le-l. And I think the very same week, I showed my minor subject students an overview of early sources about articulations, and for the first time I noticed and understood that line in Agricola, even though I've looked at that source many times (it's alone at the start of a page, all the other articulations and even the text presenting it are on the previous pages, and it has a rather cryptic graphic accompanying it, so I never figured it out before).

[Sesquitone]

Wow, that says it all!


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[Sesquitone]

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist this! In fact, "noodle-tonguing" is pretty close. Hold you nose and whisper:

"needle-nahdle-noodle- . . ."


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[jacobgarchik]

doodle land.png

I should stay out of this because as a dedicated double tongue person it's not my area of expertise but i will just pipe in to say that even the word "doodle" in english has many different pronunciations leading to different things going on inside the mouth. Cockney Michael Caine doo-ull is gonna very different than French accent doo-dell.

[LeTromboniste]

doodle land.png

I should stay out of this because as a dedicated double tongue person it's not my area of expertise but i will just pipe in to say that even the word "doodle" in english has many different pronunciations leading to different things going on inside the mouth. Cockney Michael Caine doo-ull is gonna very different than French accent doo-dell.

True, but there's a pretty long precedent of writing it with lots of D's, where I think it's pretty clear the D would be pronounced by many readers when speaking it (but probably shouldn't be when playing). In the 18th century it's shown as "Did'll". Which admittedly I find already better than Doodle. That apostrophe (and lack of vowels) says a lot

[AndrewMeronek]

One of the modern masters of doodle tonguing, Bob McChesney, talks about his approach here:



He doesn't actually just go "doo-dle" all over; he specifically practices using partial breaks and adding "substitution" syllables to aid clarity.

[davdud101]

Thanks for the amazing insight! Lots of good stuff to try. Definitely seems like doodle tonguing is a very personal thing or each player has to discover how it works for their own oral cavity and tongue.

Some of these certainly work better for me than others so far.... I'll probably update this thread as I get closer. I've taken a couple videos to show where I'm starting out, I might post those in the coming weeks.

[pbone3b]

I'd recommend McChesney's book: https://bobmcchesney.com/doodle-studies-book/
My dog-eared version is so old it came with a demo cassette tape!
I doodle for most situations, but I find that my speed and consistency definitely max out at some point, and I've started working on a softer double to help. If you're interested in that, check out Jacob Garchik's great series on Substack: https://substack.com/@jacobgarchik473545/p-159473099

For each method, I suggest starting very... very... slowly.

[AndrewMeronek]

It came up in conversation with a friend/trombonist in rehearsal this evening: I mentioned that for the 'l' part of the doodle, I have a hard time doing that syllable when going up a partial, and no issues going down a partial. He actually has noticed the opposite: ease doing the 'l' ascending a partial and problematic descending a partial.

This reminded me of McChesney in that video above talking about crossing partials and having to adjust his syllables to do so. Now I'm wondering if there are two (or maybe more) distinct forms of doodle-tonguing, and which actually can affect this partial crossing.

[Bassbone11]

I have doodle'd from a young age on bass trombone and it is often more articulate than my double tongue for embellishments (see Gillingham Sonata: 1st movement, 16th note triplets before the half time re-statement of the opening theme 1 octave lower) but I can rarely use it for long periods of time because of how physically draining it is to keep the -dle strong. I also have a particularly difficult time crossing partials so you're not alone there. for when I'm working on rep that warrants it, the opening exercises in Bob's doodle book really wake things up but even then, it doesn't suit every passage. Confirmation is a very good example of a place where I mix double and doodle for that exact reason. For the first 20 bars, I doodle every note faster than an 8th but for the Ebm7 bar, I have to double or it gets muddy. Immediately back to doodle for the faster (swooshier?) lines in the DbM7.

Throwing my hat in for the exact articulation used: LA-DLE-LA-DLE but without specifically pronouncing the D. More along the lines of saying LA-LA-LA but if you're not stopping the air (or sweeping the tongue on the roof of the mouth), there is an instant where the tip of your tongue is pressed against the roof of your mouth but air is still blowing around it. Maximize that instant, make contact with more of your tongue (maybe thing about the tongue being flatter against the roof of your mouth? in reality it is just the sides of my tongue joining the tip in making contact so there is still a small cavity in the center), and eventually just hit it harder. Unironically, just the Patrick Leedle meme.

[AndrewMeronek]

Tell me I'm wrong but I think I found an additional wrinkle. In this video below, I believe Mikael is actually using a glottal stop for his "ul" syllable instead of some more forward part of his tongue.

That technically would not be what I understand to be "doodle" tonguing . . . but it works for him and perhaps many other people even if they don't realize that's what is happening. IMHO this is part of what makes this kind of stuff so tough to really nail down. Differences in diction between languages and dialects can cause people to interpret seemingly similar things very differently.

[Wayne]

What ever one does, just keep all the movement as close to the front as possible. It'll be clearer and more uniform between the different strikes.