So what is actually happening when playing low pitches?

[Wayne]

I see several threads on high note playing, which makes sense as that is where a lot of players struggle and where a lot of public embarrassment happens.

However a lot of a player's work on third trombone or even second trombone happens in and below the staff.

If high range is about creating a faster buzz (resonance wave in the horn if you like) and if the consensus is that to do that requires a combination of air pressure, lip tension and a horn/mouthpiece angle that lets the right part of your lips do the work, then what is the consensus on low range.

For me, it is about letting the lips relax enough so the right buzz/wave happens. That is accomplished by reducing the "grip" in the corners of the embouchure and probably (without really thinking about it) reducing the pressure of the mouthpiece just a little. At the same time the isometric contraction I use from my torso that supports the high range also relaxes. I get a mental image/physical sensation of the note occupying the space from my belly to the end of the horn, then filling the room. Very high notes by contrast seem to vibrate mostly in my head and the room.

Physics of low range playing anyone?

[Edit: when I mention air pressure and resonance I am taking as understood that the workings of the oral cavity are involved as well as the rest of the body.]

[robcat2075]

Physics of low range playing anyone?

[Edit: when I mention air pressure and resonance I am taking as understood that the workings of the oral cavity are involved as well as the rest of the body.]

I'm not convinced that is understood.

As a student I certainly heard a lot of low-information talk about "breath support" and "the diaphragm" but no one ever spoke in any detail about what happens with the air stream... before... it passes the lips.

Only over the last decade or so have I recognized that to get the most resonant tone there is an alteration of the tonguing vowel (e.g. "tah") across the range of the horn. Just as there are better vowels for high, there are better vowels for low.

RangeVowels.jpg

The practical effect of these vowels is to change the position of the tongue, which will change the size of the airway between the tongue and roof of the mouth and/or change the direction of the air through the lips.

The physics of why this works remains unstudied.

[BrassSection]

Not sure how euphonium is compared to trombone down low, but I occasionally play the second D below the staff on my euph. Gotta totally relax lips and slightly withdraw them from the mouthpiece. Why do I play that note? Not all bass players are comfortable tuning to drop D, so I cover that.

[harrisonreed]

Physics of low range playing anyone?

[Edit: when I mention air pressure and resonance I am taking as understood that the workings of the oral cavity are involved as well as the rest of the body.]

I'm not convinced that is understood.

As a student I certainly heard a lot of low-information talk about "breath support" and "the diaphragm" but no one ever spoke in any detail about what happens with the air stream... before... it passes the lips.

Only over the last decade or so have I recognized that to get the most resonant tone there is an alteration of the tonguing vowel (e.g. "tah") across the range of the horn. Just as there are better vowels for high, there are better vowels for low.


RangeVowels.jpg


The practical effect of these vowels is to change the position of the tongue, which will change the size of the airway between the tongue and roof of the mouth and/or change the direction of the air through the lips.

The physics of why this works remains unstudied.

With respect to the other good points you've made, I don't think this one bold statement is true.

I was taught and had access to further written and online teaching about the connection between lingual vowel shape and its effect on range and tone as far back as 2004. I'm fairly certain those teachers would have been taught about it or discovered it for themselves even earlier than that.

I agree that many teachers, even college professors, do not understand the concept, or don't teach it properly. The classic sound you hear from students of these teachers is one that is artificially dark and full of fluff. They keep the jaw and tongue as low as possible regardless of range to try and achieve the most "orchestral" sound possible. It's terrible, flat playing.

I think it would be a more effective strategy for these old school teachers to actually have their students keep the tongue and jaw as high as possible while still producing a full tone. This approach is also not entirely correct, but I think it is easier to try and adjust a bit to be more open from the most efficient position, than it is to try and adjust from the least efficient position to one that is more efficient.

[Kbiggs]

For me, it is about letting the lips relax enough so the right buzz/wave happens. That is accomplished by reducing the "grip" in the corners of the embouchure and probably (without really thinking about it) reducing the pressure of the mouthpiece just a little.

I agree with you about allowing the lips to relax. I think it’s also important to know just how the lips need to relax to produce a buzz, as well as how to shape a sound that is speaks easily and is consistent with the sound over the range of the horn.

The muscles at and just under the corners of the mouth should remain engaged so that the area under the lower lip remains relatively flat.

At the same time the isometric contraction I use from my torso that supports the high range also relaxes. I get a mental image/physical sensation of the note occupying the space from my belly to the end of the horn, then filling the room. Very high notes by contrast seem to vibrate mostly in my head and the room.

Physics of low range playing anyone?

[Edit: when I mention air pressure and resonance I am taking as understood that the workings of the oral cavity are involved as well as the rest of the body.]

Isometric muscular contractions are generally used to describe pairs of skeletal muscles, like the biceps and triceps. Biceps are for flexion, triceps for extension. When operated simultaneously, they create a static tension state: both are engaged and attempting to contract, but are prevented from doing so by the opposite force of the muscular pair.

Brass players use the body’s natural functions of inhalation and exhalation to create enough focused wind to pass through tensed lips (embouchure) so they create a buzz. When we breathe in, the diaphragm tenses, and moves downwards, creating suction at the mouth cavity, and pulling air into the lungs. As the diaphragm tenses, it presses downwards, displacing the abdominals contents (guts), making the abdomen expand (move outwards). Additionally, one set of intercostal muscles tenses, expanding the ribcage, and thus expanding the volume of the lungs. While the diaphragm tenses, the abdominals and a second set of intercostals are relaxed, which allows some of the expansion.

During exhalation, the process reverses: the diaphragm and first set of intercostals relax, while the abdominals and the second set of intercostals tense, pushing air out of the lungs.

The shorter answer: avoid simultaneous activation of the diaphragm, the abdominals, and the intercostals. That kind of static pressure is used for evacuation (pooping) and childbirth. For the thorax and abdomen, playing a brass instrument is about air flow, not muscular tension.

The even shorter answer: isometrics in the breathing muscles bad, air flow with optimal muscular effort good.

Having said that… yes, in the upper register, there is some increased tension in the diaphragmatic and abdominal muscles. However, the emphasis should still be on the air flow—moving the air past the lips. Too much opposing muscular tension means the air can’t move, and it will get bottled up somewhere… usually at the glottis, leading to other tension-related problems.

*****

One thing to add, and which has been mentioned in a few other threads recently (Harrison?), is the direction of the airstream from the point of the lips. For people with very high placement (2/3+ upper lip in the mouthpiece, 1/3- lower lip), when they play high notes, the airstream past the lips tends to point downwards towards the floor, or along the edge of the rim of the mouthpiece. For lower notes, the opposite happens: the closer they are to playing fundamental (pedal tones), the more the airstream is directed towards the venturi (the hole in the center) of the mouthpiece.

For players with a mouthpiece placement that is very low (2/3+ lower lip, 1/3- upper lip), the higher register is the opposite: the airstream tends to point upwards, while the lower notes still tend towards the center.

It all works together, whether we’re taking about high notes or low notes. Use of air, using the correct muscles for airflow, tongue placement for vowel sounds, embouchure formed just so… we’re artist/athletes.

[harrisonreed]

*****

One thing to add, and which has been mentioned in a few other threads recently (Harrison?), is the direction of the airstream from the point of the lips. For people with very high placement (2/3+ upper lip in the mouthpiece, 1/3- lower lip), when they play high notes, the airstream past the lips tends to point downwards towards the floor, or along the edge of the rim of the mouthpiece. For lower notes, the opposite happens: the closer they are to playing fundamental (pedal tones), the more the airstream is directed towards the venturi (the hole in the center) of the mouthpiece.

For players with a mouthpiece placement that is very low (2/3+ lower lip, 1/3- upper lip), the higher register is the opposite: the airstream tends to point upwards, while the lower notes still tend towards the center.

It all works together, whether we’re taking about high notes or low notes. Use of air, using the correct muscles for airflow, tongue placement for vowel sounds, embouchure formed just so… we’re artist/athletes.

You are right on here, I think. But a cautionary tale:

One thing to be careful of is equating mouthpiece placement with upstream/downstream. It might be *best* for upstream or downstream players to *use* one of those placements, but that doesn't mean they actually are upstream or downstream solely based on where they place the mouthpiece.

For example, myself. I am pretty definitively a downstream player. I also currently am a high placement player. Those two things go together, at least for me. However! When I was in high school and through college, I was a *low-placement* player! I read Arbans, and saw the picture where they tell you that the ideal placement is 1/3 upper, 2/3 lower, with a dotted circle over some frood's face. This didn't make me play upstream -- I think upstream vs downstream is pretty immutable for players. So I played downstream, but with a low placement, using the lower lip as the anchor point.

I suffered for years with endurance and range issues because of this. No teacher taught me external embouchure mechanics or suggested any corrections, despite teaching me about vowel shapes and shaping the air with the tongue. It wasn't until I got the Alessi mouthpiece, kind of as a "ah, what the hell" kind of thing, that I actually realized my problem. My embouchure corrected itself over the course of about a month, as it could fit properly in the mouthpiece. This was right around when I released my "how to tune a trombone" video. I was just getting my embouchure sorted out during that time, and it is embarrassing now to hear what I sounded like then, but I still stand by the information I presented in the vid so I leave it up.

[Kbiggs]

Yep. There’s a strong correlation but not necessarily correspondence.

There’s a lot to the mechanics of the embouchure, a lot to learn and understand about the embouchure (of which I know a little despite my history), and there’s a lot to teaching how to form and adjust a functional embouchure, about which I know even less.

[timothy42b]

Having said that… yes, in the upper register, there is some increased tension in the diaphragmatic and abdominal muscles.

I suspect some of that increased tension is purely mental - driven by knowing we're about to do something hard. So, unnecessary, and counterproductive. But hard to avoid.

[Wilktone]

If high range is about creating a faster buzz (resonance wave in the horn if you like) and if the consensus is that to do that requires a combination of air pressure, lip tension and a horn/mouthpiece angle that lets the right part of your lips do the work, then what is the consensus on low range.

Well, it's the same. You have to combine the control of all those different things together to play any particular range. Instead of the tongue arch moving up, it lowers inside the mouth. Instead of the lips being drawn back more firmly for faster (and smaller) vibrations they are relaxed and allowed to be blown out for slower (and larger) vibrations, etc.

I'm not convinced that is understood.

I have to admit that the physics behind brass instruments is out of my wheelhouse.

Best as I can tell, there is a lot that is well understood and some nuances where experts disagree. However...

The physics of why this works remains unstudied.

This is not true. The papers you'll find are written for experts and tend to contain equations and discussions on topics that we don't learn in music school, but they are out there.

If I understand correctly, and that's a big if, the general consensus is that altering the vocal tract with the tongue position (or sometimes the jaw position) is largely about tuning resonances inside the vocal tract to help match the resonance of the instrument. There may be some effect on how the air strikes the lips from adjusting the tongue position as well, but that really doesn't seem to be what the physicists have found but more what some brass musicians believe.

I think it would be a more effective strategy for these old school teachers to actually have their students keep the tongue and jaw as high as possible while still producing a full tone. This approach is also not entirely correct, but I think it is easier to try and adjust a bit to be more open from the most efficient position, than it is to try and adjust from the least efficient position to one that is more efficient.

Yeah, there's a lot of different ways we can approach things and I think it mainly comes down to what the player is already doing and where it needs to go. For example, you can think about keeping your jaw as open as possible while still getting a good sound or you can think about keeping it as closed as possible while still getting a good sound. What we're really trying to do is find the optimal position for the jaw. If the jaw is too open (probably more common) then it would probably be more effective to think about keeping the jaw as closed as possible.

The muscles at and just under the corners of the mouth should remain engaged so that the area under the lower lip remains relatively flat.

I agree. A lot of players don't do this, which I find causes issues.

One thing to add, and which has been mentioned in a few other threads recently (Harrison?), is the direction of the airstream from the point of the lips.

Exactly. The higher the pitch, the more sharply upstream or downstream the air gets blown past the lips. The lower the pitch, the closer to being blown straight out. I don't think the air stream ever really gets blown straight down the shank, even on the lowest notes, but I could be wrong.

One thing to be careful of is equating mouthpiece placement with upstream/downstream. It might be *best* for upstream or downstream players to *use* one of those placements, but that doesn't mean they actually are upstream or downstream solely based on where they place the mouthpiece.

It's much more likely for someone to play as one type when they would play better as another type. This was my experience, having been taught to play with a downstream mouthpiece placement. I had to move my placement lower and play upstream, but I was definitely playing with a downstream embouchure before. I will sometimes ask students to try out a different embouchure type, to see what happens, and some of those students seem to be playing with a downstream lip position on an upstream mouthpiece placement, so I think it is possible.

What is pretty common is a Very High Placement type player who doesn't place the mouthpiece quite as high as it needs to be, and they exhibit traits that you see with Medium High Placement types, including some sort of type switching between the two types. Without having watched you play before and after, Harrison, I would guess that this was your situation rather than playing downstream on an upstream placement. But then again, I might be wrong. I rewatched a bit of your tuning a trombone video and that does look downstream there, as you said.

All that is just to point out that it's the mouthpiece placement that makes a player upstream or downstream. Yes, you can force your lips into the wrong position for the placement, but I really don't find this happening very often.

I suspect some of that increased tension is purely mental - driven by knowing we're about to do something hard. So, unnecessary, and counterproductive. But hard to avoid.

Probably, but there does need to be a change in the air pressure as we change registers. When we get into the upper register with a very small aperture the internal air pressure does increase. Maintaining support does require a change in how hard we're blowing, so the increased muscular contraction in the blowing muscles does seem necessary. Again, this seems sort of like the idea of keeping the jaw as open or as closed as possible, just approaching the "goldilocks zone" of breathing from two different directions to get to where it needs to be.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

[Lots of good info...]

All that is just to point out that it's the mouthpiece placement that makes a player upstream or downstream. Yes, you can force your lips into the wrong position for the placement, but I really don't find this happening very often.

No, that thinking is exactly what I'm cautioning against. I'm trying to say that the placement alone doesn't make a player upstream or downstream. Because new players do dumb things like I did and bad habits become really engrained.

My lower teeth go slightly behind my upper teeth (under bite? I never get that right...). My air has always gone down, past my lower lip.

When I was in elementary school through college, I read about the "correct" placement for *all* players in the Arbans book (obviously not correct info), and this low placement was reinforced by my teachers using the "don't change the natural position of the mouthpiece, embouchure change can be debilitating" line of logic. That was common in the 90's and 00's. Probably still is. I even recommend against changing the natural position of the anchor point and just suggest larger (for most people) rim IDs.

The upper rim edge of my (too small) mouthpiece was placed just at the edge of the red of my upper lip. The lower part of the rim was well below, touching my where the chin starts to protrude. But, I was playing with a downstream airflow. I know this because I would consciously be thinking about the air going to hit my chin when playing in the upper register. However, because my incorrect mouthpiece placement put the edge of the rim as far as possible from my aperture, the upper register was very difficult for me. I had a good sound, just no range and bad endurance.

If a teacher had come in and said, "oh you're low placement, that means you're upstream because that's where the mouthpiece is", not only would they have been wrong, they would have been trying to introduce upstream mechanics that would have made everything infinitely worse for me. I probably would have ignored such advice by college, but in high school I might have taken such a diagnosis as truth and also taken the counterproductive/destructive advice that came along with it.

[Doug Elliott]

"As _____ as possible" is pretty much never a good approach.

[Wilktone]

"As _____ as possible" is pretty much never a good approach.

Not always. I do agree that when you're working on an optimal position of the jaw, for example, it's probably best to try to find that position rather than going from a starting point that is too open or closed.

But more apropos for this topic, here's what you told me about dropping the jaw to descend.

"There are some people, I don’t necessarily think this is correct, but there are some people who drop the jaw for low notes and raise the jaw for high notes. And my preference, and what I teach, is to not do that. Just keep the jaw as still as possible so far as opening and closing goes. Find a position that works and stay with it rather than doing that, because a jaw drop for low notes tends to pull everything downward."

- Doug Elliott, August 3, 1998

Sometimes when I teach something that is new to the student I will ask them to go from Point A to Point C in order to make them reach Point B. I know that Reinhardt did some similar things. You have to be careful to make this clear to the student, however. Particularly if they aren't taking regular lessons. I think we've had similar conversations about teaching one-shot lessons and how you really can't do things like that. Perhaps we should also include internet discussions.

No, that thinking is exactly what I'm cautioning against. I'm trying to say that the placement alone doesn't make a player upstream or downstream.

But it kind of does. Bear in mind I'm not talking about embouchure dysfunction.

My lower teeth go slightly behind my upper teeth (under bite? I never get that right...). My air has always gone down, past my lower lip.

Mine too. Also while I play (I keep my jaw slightly receded). But my embouchure is definitely upstream, confirmed with a transparent mouthpiece. Jaw position doesn't create the air stream direction, mouthpiece placement does.

I really don't know if you were playing downstream with the upstream mouthpiece placement. Playing sensations can be deceiving. Maybe you were, maybe you weren't. Did you confirm this with a transparent mouthpiece? If not, then we just don't know. I will admit that it's possible, but I would think it would be pretty obvious that it was wrong to someone who knows what they're doing.

Regardless, what you're describing isn't a functional embouchure. Lots of people play incorrectly for their anatomy. The point here is that you recognized that your placement didn't fit your face and adjusted it from an upstream setting (albeit one that wasn't working for you) to the correct one for you. A dysfunctional embouchure by definition is not one that we can point to for correct mechanics.

Dave

[harrisonreed]

No, that thinking is exactly what I'm cautioning against. I'm trying to say that the placement alone doesn't make a player upstream or downstream.

But it kind of does. Bear in mind I'm not talking about embouchure dysfunction.

From what I can see, outside of professional players, dysfunction is the default. That's why what you're saying seems backwards to me. You can't assume placement is correct, or that the embouchure is functioning correctly.

I think the is the biggest thing holding back most brass players, especially beginners.

[Wilktone]

You can't assume placement is correct, or that the embouchure is functioning correctly.

Agreed.

I think, however, that we're talking about two different things. On the one hand, you are correct that mouthpiece placement can be deceptive. While I've never personally seen this, in my dissertation interview Doug mentioned that sometimes the placement is obviously one thing, but when you look at it in a transparent mouthpiece the lip texture or something else flips it opposite of what you'd expect to see. Other players use placements too close to half and half or, as in your situation, in the wrong placement for their actual type.

On the other hand, when you understand the relationship between mouthpiece placement and air stream direction you are able to troubleshoot those situations where they don't match. One lip or another should predominate and if that doesn't match what should be happening you understand how to correct it.

I found some videos that illustrate some examples that may be similar to what you're describing.

What type do you think this player is? Is it working correctly for him? What would you suggest he try?



Here's the same player at a different time, finally finding the correct placement.



He was used to placing the mouthpiece pretty close to half and half, which wasn't working very well for him. Getting his placement in the right spot allowed him to correctly direct the air stream closer to the rim and access the upper register.



The above player was convinced that he was playing upstream. His setting is low enough so that his aperture is above the shank. His lip position, particularly in the low register, does appear as if it's directing the air upwards. But in the upper register the lip position doesn't look quite like most upstream players. Compare how his lower lip looks in the upper register to the other player above when he's getting the upper register working.

In this particular player, he actually should have been playing as a Very High Placement type, so perhaps your situation was similar to his, Harrison. Do you think he's blowing upstream or downstream in this video?

And now that I previewed this post I noticed that the video labels might give away the game, but I'm still curious about your thoughts.

Dave

[andrei]

One thing to be careful of is equating mouthpiece placement with upstream/downstream. It might be *best* for upstream or downstream players to *use* one of those placements, but that doesn't mean they actually are upstream or downstream solely based on where they place the mouthpiece.

[...] What is pretty common is a Very High Placement type player who doesn't place the mouthpiece quite as high as it needs to be, and they exhibit traits that you see with Medium High Placement types, including some sort of type switching between the two types. Without having watched you play before and after, Harrison, I would guess that this was your situation rather than playing downstream on an upstream placement. But then again, I might be wrong. I rewatched a bit of your tuning a trombone video and that does look downstream there, as you said.

I think I also had some similar experience. Playing as Mid High Placement (when actually being a Very High Placement), with a very low position (it was more an upstream placement), but still a downstream. I know I was downstream (I didn't have any idea about this details back then), because for me playing as upstream is very weird. I can do it now, but I have to force it. I would have known that switch if it would have happened. Anyways, when the embouchure is twisted, all kind of weird things can happen, from my experience.