Harmon mute -- stem out?

[AtomicClock]

I've been seeing more (concert band) music marked for Harmon mute (never any +o indications). Sometimes the group decides "stem out"; sometimes nothing is discussed. A quick internet search says the "Harmon" marking is almost always intended to be stem-out, and stem-in is marked Wawa. Is that right? The references I see are all trumpet-related; maybe trombone is different?

[CalgaryTbone]

I usually think stem in unless there's an instruction for stem out. Most trombone harmons don't play that well with the stem out - trumpet mutes seem to be better at that. My 3D-printed harmon is better than most at either stem in or out.

Jim Scott

[JohnL]

If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing. It may not be correct for the music, but you're not going to be able to tell them that. Otherwise, I'd just say go with whatever seems stylistically correct for the piece.

Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.

It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.

[harrisonreed]

The best stem-out "harmon" is the Ullven version, which comes with short stem pipes without the cup attached. Once of the pipes is only 2 inches long. These go in the end hole (various depths or all the way in) and give you the resistance and buzz you would expect, that trumpets seem to get without any issues.

So you can do it on a normal Harmon mute, but you may need to make your own "cup less stem" or build the hole up with felt or rubber padding. The key with the Ullven mute is that it is pretty well in tune with whatever combo you use. Making your own version with felt or rubber padding will just make an already out of tune mute even more wonky.

[CalgaryTbone]

If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing. It may not be correct for the music, but you're not going to be able to tell them that. Otherwise, I'd just say go with whatever seems stylistically correct for the piece.

Is it "modern" music? If so, it's most likely stem out. Stem in is usually reserved for when you're going for a 1920's-ish sound or a special effect.

It kinda drives me nuts when we're playing a tune that's supposed to have a sort of 1920's sound and the trumpets insist on going all Miles Davis (i.e., stem out) with it.

This post made me realize that there would be different answers depending on the genre you're working in. In a big band or some other commercial setting, I would would definitely agree with the quoted post above. I sometimes encounter Harmon in Classical contemporary music, and if they don't specify, I default to what sounds better and will do the best job of playing all the notes (low range is bad on a lot of Harmons, and worse without stem). You have to listen to figure out if they are looking for the classic stem out "Miles Davis" sound, or something more tinny and distant. Of course, wa-wa's are a sure sign of stem-in.

Jim Scott

[AtomicClock]

If the trumpets are also in Harmon, just match whatever they're doing.

I just came back from a concert where the three trumpets used stem-in, stem-out, and a Harmon-brand "Triple Play" cup mute. I guess it didn't matter.

[Dennis]

The trombone harmons I've tried (H&B, Harmon, Jo-Ral, Wick, and Trapani--I own Harmon, Jo-Ral, and Trapani) don't work well without the stem, especially in the low register. Alan Kaplan suggests (and there is a You-Tube demo up) partially blocking the hole with a left finger. That makes things work a lot better, even on a bass. Of course, the triggers are unavailable, but any composer who writes bass trombone in harmon in the trigger or pedal range needs a trombone lesson or two.

I think Harrison's point about the Ullven is a good one, and it's likely that a short tube with an extractor string would improve the behavior of these mutes in the low register. I don't know about Jo-Ral, but the stem on my Harmon-branded mute is just a length of half-inch conduit. I don't think anyone asked, "How long and what diameter does this tube need to be for a trombone?" I'll have to give that a try the next time I have to get the harmons out.

[Finetales]

A quick internet search says the "Harmon" marking is almost always intended to be stem-out, and stem-in is marked Wawa. Is that right?

Stem out is only the unmarked default in a jazz/big band setting, and only for trumpets at that. Trombone stem out sounds nothing like trumpet stem out, and on the rare occasion I've had to use a trombone harmon in a big band, it was with the stem.

For "legit" settings I would always assume stem in unless it's explicitly marked stem out. Every time I've had to use a harmon in an orchestra, concert band, or trombone choir it was always with the stem unless marked otherwise.

[Dennis]

Most of the harmon calls I've seen for trombone are in brass bands and show pits. Brass band composers tend to be careful about markings, specifying stem in, stem out, stem extended. Show orchestrators are less careful.

[tbdana]

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

[AndrewMeronek]

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

I got that in a musical theater gig last year. On bass trombone.

[tedthetrumpet]

As a refugee from playing trumpet, it was a real surprise to me that stem-out harmon is such a poor sound on the trombone. Call me Miles, but at one point I was using stem-out harmon on the trumpet virtually all the time.

As an arranger… ha! Before I knew that, I had on more than one occasion called for stem-out harmon on trombone, on the assumption that it would be the same kind of sound as the trumpet.

Also… it's my impression that the trombonists around here either don't own harmons or don't bother to bring them unless asked!

[Finetales]

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.

[AtomicClock]

As an arranger… ha! Before I knew that, I had on more than one occasion called for stem-out harmon on trombone, on the assumption that it would be the same kind of sound as the trumpet.

I'm imagining a future where trombonists and mute makers have found a solution, but the "historically informed" cohort insists on playing your arrangements with the terrible harmons.

[AndrewMeronek]

Harmon mutes aren't terrible, with or without the stems. But arrangers have to understand the balance.

[EriKon]

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

Especially in a mic'd situation for a jazz solo it can be pretty cool. I've done that quite a few times. This is a small project I did during Covid:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1w2yee9s ... k38xz&dl=0

[Dennis]

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.

Plain Language Summary: No notes written below and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.

[mwpfoot]

Stem in on trombone, always, unless the arranger has additionally written in "Trust me! I know what I'm doing!"

[harrisonreed]

It can be cool!! It just has to be written carefully.

Plain Language Summary: No notes written below and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.

This is only true with nominally designed harmon mutes. Which, admittedly, are what 99% of the harmons on the market are. I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!

[AtomicClock]

Plain Language Summary: No notes written below and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.

Sigh. I just got this (bass clef, tenor part):

Husa.JPG

... and with the trigger. All Harmons have unreliable corks.

[CalgaryTbone]

Plain Language Summary: No notes written below and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.

Sigh. I just got this (bass clef, tenor part):

Husa.JPG

... and with the trigger. All Harmons have unreliable corks.

Try the Trapani Harmon (3D printed). Really good mutes, and the low register works well. I'll try that low C# when I get to work tonight (the mute's in my locker). I'm 90% sure it will be fine, and I know that the synthetic material he uses instead of corks works well at staying in the bell.

Jim Scott

[AtomicClock]

That's good to know. But I'm not going shopping for just one note. Maybe I'll false-tone it so I can hold the mute.

[Olofson]

Sometimes you get parts that are impossible to really play in a way to be proud of.
You just find a way to do something that sound similar to what the composer want.

[mbarbier]

Plain Language Summary: No notes written below and the part is marked 2 dynamic levels above any accompaniment.

This is only true with nominally designed harmon mutes. Which, admittedly, are what 99% of the harmons on the market are. I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!

That would be really fantastic! It's such an incredible mute- nothing like it! I remember trying it and immediately feeling mad knowing that I was going to have to spend that kind of money on a mute cause it was too good not to.

And it stays in the bell extremely well.

[EriKon]

Sigh. I just got this (bass clef, tenor part):

Husa.JPG

... and with the trigger. All Harmons have unreliable corks.

Try the Trapani Harmon (3D printed). Really good mutes, and the low register works well. I'll try that low C# when I get to work tonight (the mute's in my locker). I'm 90% sure it will be fine, and I know that the synthetic material he uses instead of corks works well at staying in the bell.

Jim Scott

Do you know if Steve is still in operation with the Trapani Mutes? Wrote him two mails in the last weeks and haven't heard back about it.

[CalgaryTbone]

No I don't know what he's up to. I got mine through the BrassArk, but if I remember correctly, they forwarded my order to him directly since they had just stopped serving as a dealer. I think he is involved in the Rejano practice mutes, so I think he's still doing some 3D-printed mutes. Maybe Noah has another contact method?

Jim Scot

[AtomicClock]

All Harmons have unreliable corks.

Actually, my cork area got bent a little out of round. Now it grips the bell really well.

[mbarbier]

All Harmons have unreliable corks.

Actually, my cork area got bent a little out of round. Now it grips the bell really well.

A trick that works well for me is to put some cork grease on the corks of a straight mute and turn it in a few times to put a light coat inside the bell. Do that every few months and all your mutes grip better. Has made a huge difference for my harmon staying in the bell, especially the jo-ral bubble, which always wants to fall out.

Why would anyone play stem out on the trombone? Have you heard that????

Cause it sounds amazing, especially with a close mic. The low range is especially nice- you have to play unbelievably soft for it to get around the wonkiness, but then it amplifies really well and can be quite a huge sound.

[harrisonreed]

I use rosin on my corks

[AtomicClock]

I use rosin on my corks

Cork grease comes in convenient chapstick tubes. Rosin comes in what? Charlie Daniels' violin case?

[harrisonreed]

I use rosin on my corks

Cork grease comes in convenient chapstick tubes. Rosin comes in what? Charlie Daniels' violin case?

I mean, I just walk up a few rows and ask to borrow . Or I walk over to the other side of the big band and ask the bass player. Or just buy it.

It works great. You don't need to use it too often. Cork grease is designed for woodwind instruments and makes corks slippery, for example to make it easy to get the saxophone mouthpiece easy to tune, and put on and remove. Maybe not the best thing to keep a mute in place and it's messy.

[bassclef]

I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!

I eyeball those once in a while...which one do you have, the Popy Bop or the Wah Wow? (I think those are the two they make with stems).

I evolved from Harmon brand to Jo Ral to Trapani. Recently got an aluminum Best Brass which is nice, but I am still not in totally happy with anything I've tried so far on tenor or bass.

Hopefully merf has one in the works!!!

[harrisonreed]

I really need to record a demo with my Ullven, stem out. I feel like people are just not aware of those mutes as much as they should be!

I eyeball those once in a while...which one do you have, the Popy Bop or the Wah Wow? (I think those are the two they make with stems).

I evolved from Harmon brand to Jo Ral to Trapani. Recently got an aluminum Best Brass which is nice, but I am still not in totally happy with anything I've tried so far on tenor or bass.

Hopefully merf has one in the works!!!

The wah wow one. I love that it fits completely in the bell. The sound is so nice.

[CalgaryTbone]

I have my Trapani harmon mute at home because I need it on an upcoming show where we play the music of one of the Star Wars episodes to the movie - live for audiences.

I tried some playing without stem. It is much better sounding than any metal harmon I've tried that way, but not quite like the way trumpets sound when they do the "Miles Davis" thing. It plays pretty well in the low range, but gets a bit uncentered early into the valve notes, and comes back to normal right at that low C# that was in a previous post. Now, the flutter tongue is a whole different issue that low! I could get something out that more or less worked, but it was uncomfortable and wouldn't project very well.

Jim Scott