Double Buzzing an entire partial

[YesYesYesNoNo]

I've recently started to have a really bad problem with double buzzing during my bass trombone playing, especially on both G3 and Gb3. This has been ongoing for a couple of weeks now and has begun spreading to the rest of the notes in that partial, Bb3, all the way to E3. I'm not really sure what to do about it and have experimented with all sorts of things, such as embouchure placement, air speed, and openness of the throat, along with experimenting with different mouthpieces to ensure it's not a hardware issue. Beyond this, I've been practicing really extensively with both lip slurs and air attacks through that partial, but nothing seems to be improving. I think there's something really fundamental I'm doing wrong, but I just can't figure it out. Has anyone struggled with this and have any tips?

[WilliamLang]

So split tones - or double buzzing, can tend to happen when you either collapse your embouchure towards the middle or raise your chin up and in, like an underbite. I'd recommend checking those two factors first, and hopefully they can help.

[Doug Elliott]

I do online lessons and I have fixed lots of players with double buzzing, and other issues. You can search for my posts about it. Let me know if you want to do a lesson... it ususlly only takes one.
It's a matter of understanding how your chops really need to function efficiently, and lowering your volume so it doesn't happen, until corrections take hold and you can play normally again but more correctly.

[GabrielRice]

Short answer is yes. I have had issues with this in recent years, after never having that problem in my career, and many, many trombonists have worked through double-buzzes in exactly that register. You're not alone!

A mouthpiece change might help temporarily and might be part of the long-term solution, but what will solve the problem is exactly what Doug is talking about. He can help with both.

[Doug Elliott]

The 4th partial is almost always where double buzzes happen. If it starts suddenly, the immediate cause is usually playing too loud for what your chops can handle, even just one time. But it really a symptom something isn't right about your embouchure setup, mouthpiece placement, or mouthpiece choice. If it's not fixed it can become a chronic problem that's a lot harder to get rid of later.

[slidesix]

I had the same problem back in April and Doug Elliott fixed my issues during an online lesson. All better now. Highly recommended.

[AtomicClock]

I had the same problem back in June, and it took care of itself in 6 weeks.

[kurth83]

I'm having the same problem, on the same two notes, it's driving me crazy, would love a lesson or two.

I'll PM if I can.

[MStarke]

I had (and to a small degree occasionally still have) this issue for a long time. Developed it at least correlating with, maybe caused by an embouchure change around 20 years ago that also created lots of other issues. Generally moving away from that change again made it mostly go away, but it kind of stayed at least in the back of my mind.

Some aspects that may also help:
- Try to recreate the double buzz on purpose. If you can create it, you may understand better the underlying issue and start changing it
- When it is "chronic", really search expert advice
- An equipment change CAN help, but will likely only lead to temporary changes

[Doug Elliott]

Don't let it become chronic.
It's a sign sonething is wrong and needs to be corrected.
Playing doesn't have to be difficult.

[Finetales]

The 4th partial is almost always where double buzzes happen.

That's interesting to hear. I had a big double buzzing issue in middle and early high school, on the 2nd partial only. I developed a shift that fixed it, though in hindsight it would have been better to fix it any other way.

Nowadays I very infrequently get a double buzz on the 6th partial!

[harrisonreed]

4th partial as in Bb ?

If that's the case, that meshes with my experience; that is the easiest partial to do "lip multiphonics" on, especially around the Ab. I honestly have no idea how people are doing it intentionally the octave lower than that.

I always get confused because the pedal range is not considered a real partial or fundamental and could be thought of as a split tone depending on who you ask. To me it is the first partial.

[GabrielRice]

The 4th partial is almost always where double buzzes happen.

That's interesting to hear. I had a big double buzzing issue in middle and early high school, on the 2nd partial only. I developed a shift that fixed it, though in hindsight it would have been better to fix it any other way.

Nowadays I very infrequently get a double buzz on the 6th partial!

As I remember from meeting you years ago, Tiffany, you have a very unusual (and HIGHLY functional!) embouchure.

Actually, I'm saying embouchure, but really I mean your entire way of playing. From what I remember and can see on your videos, you have a very well-developed feel for using the resistance of the instrument and not forcing things to happen. That's something I've been getting gradually better at over the course of many years.

[mbarbier]

4th partial as in Bb ?

If that's the case, that meshes with my experience; that is the easiest partial to do "lip multiphonics" on, especially around the Ab. I honestly have no idea how people are doing it intentionally the octave lower than that.

I always get confused because the pedal range is not considered a real partial or fundamental and could be thought of as a split tone depending on who you ask. To me it is the first partial.

When you split down there (2:1) you're essentially splitting between the second partial and false tone that's between the 1st and 2nd partial. The false tone part of the split will kind of oscillate between the false tone and the pedal tone, but it's mostly between the 2nd partial and the false tone. So, going off the Ab, rather than getting an octave you sort of get Ab and a sharp Eb, which is similar pitch content when you split from the 4th partial Ab, except that that lower Eb is sort of oscillating down to the pedal. It's a good one and looks strange when run into Spear.

[Wilktone]

I used to get a double buzz a lot on 4th partial Gb b I also would get it quite a lot on low Bb, with the pitch splitting to a pedal Bb.

Both were somewhat related, but the Gb double buzz seemed to be mostly caused by allowing my lower lip to get blown out too far into the mouthpiece. This happened more frequently as I got fatigued. Over time I was able to correct this by making sure that I kept my lower lip drawn in a little more and overall just developed my embouchure control better (this was shortly after changing my embouchure type).

The double buzz on the low Bb was mostly caused by moving too far in my descending direction with my embouchure motion/pivot. In order to play from low Bb to pedal Bb I had to reverse the direction of my pivot in order to get the pedal out. In other words, I had my low Bb set for playing something already below pedal Bb so the tone would split while trying to play low Bb. I had to correct how I was descending and minimize my pivot for low Bb in order to continue to move in the same direction to go from low Bb to pedal Bb.

Another cause of a double buzz can be the lips fighting for predominance inside the mouthpiece. If the mouthpiece placement is too close to 50/50 this can be corrected by placing the mouthpiece either higher or lower on the lips.

Without watching you play we really can't say if your issue is related to any of the above or something different. Doug can certainly sort that out for you, probably pretty quickly. The correction might take some time to make work consistently for you, but the solution is generally pretty easy to understand, once you know exactly what's going on.

Dave