Grip aid list- feel free to help add some

[Burgerbob]

In a rare bout of free time, I put together a list of all the grip aids I can think of and links to, well, an attempt to get one.

I'm missing the new little Yamaha strap thing- dunno where that one is with some googling. Please let me know and I'll add new things to the document.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11TQ ... sp=sharing

[GabrielRice]

Sent an edit request.

The small Yamaha one is available from eBay sellers.

I've just gotten a grip from Joe Maiocco, and I think it's a winner. Like the CalderPips or old Sheridan Get-a-Grip but made on a 3d printer with a material that can be bent after running it under hot water. It's smaller and doesn't force my wrist out as far as I can tell, though I've had to ask Joe to make a slightly different one to fit my instrument.

[AtomicClock]

Thein also makes a back-of-hand support. But I don't know if they offer an aftermarket kit.
https://thein-brass.de/en/instrument/thein-equipment/

[Burgerbob]

There's more than a few that are brand-specific and wouldn't work on another brand. But I think it's important enough to have them included.

[BassBoneFL]

I have both a Wise Grip and a SlideKick on my slides along with the Greenhoe hand rest on all my bells. Have the Maiocco hand rest on order to try out. Had a love/hate relationship with the Get-A-Grip. Ultimately felt the minuses outweighed the plusses for me.

[Burgerbob]

I have both a Wise Grip and a SlideKick on my slides

That was dumb- I even have the Slidekick website open in a tab! Totally forgot. Getting one at some point for my short cork barrel Conns.

[wayne88ny]

On the old TTF, one of the members posted instructions for a do it yourself support called "Get a Grip". No relation to the Sheridan Get a Grip. This one predates the Sheridan support.

7-GAG-PARTS-ANNOTATED.jpg

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The split shaft collar needs to be brazed to the dual set screw coupler and the brass rod needs to be bent and cut to size. The rest is just assembly.

[jacobgarchik]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

[Burgerbob]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

They'll just be paid off by Big Grip

[BassBoneFL]

Just got the Maiocco grip a few days ago.... A+++. Fixes some of my issues with Get-A-Grip. Hand position better and doesn't move around. Fits on my Shires and Bach slides along with SlideKick and WiseGrip. However just a hair too big for my narrow and shorter-barreled 70+yr old Bach and 90+yr old Conn. (Wise Grip doesn't work with them either)

[Kbiggs]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

They'll just be paid off by Big Grip

Why Aidan, I never thought you could be so cynical!

[Kbiggs]

Just got the Maiocco grip a few days ago.... A+++. Fixes some of my issues with Get-A-Grip. Hand position better and doesn't move around. Fits on my Shires and Bach slides along with SlideKick and WiseGrip. However just a hair too big for my narrow and shorter-barreled 70+yr old Bach and 90+yr old Conn. (Wise Grip doesn't work with them either)

I’m glad to hear that there’s another possibility out there. I was considering one of the English handgrips to replace my Sheridan Get-a-Grips, but the Mango Menace’s Foreign Goods Tax made me think twice.

So you can use all three devices at once on the same horn?

[BassBoneFL]

Just got the Maiocco grip a few days ago.... A+++. Fixes some of my issues with Get-A-Grip. Hand position better and doesn't move around. Fits on my Shires and Bach slides along with SlideKick and WiseGrip. However just a hair too big for my narrow and shorter-barreled 70+yr old Bach and 90+yr old Conn. (Wise Grip doesn't work with them either)

So you can use all three devices at once on the same horn?

Yes

[GabrielRice]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

When I was seeing an occupational therapist to deal with left tennis elbow (which was not caused by playing, but playing was preventing it from healing) I brought my bass trombone in to show them what I was dealing with. I don't remember the specifics of the conversation, but the basic gist was that I needed to get the weight supported by big muscles and geometry rather than the last two fingers of the left hand (I also had trigger finger as it happens), and that the tendinitis I was managing in my wrist required me to keep it straight.

The best solution for me to accomplish those things has been the Leather Specialties strap. The Get-a-Grip/Calderpips puts the weight in essentially the same place, but I've never been able to get my wrist completely straight with them. I tried a Rath piece that supports the back of the hand, and that was great except that it dulled the response of the instrument.

I think the Maiocco grip will work, and it will have the advantage of being easier to get in and out of for mute changes. It's also easier to adjust than the Calderpips, per Joe's instructions on instagram. I just did it this afternoon.

[jacobgarchik]

What I'm wondering is what is the best hand position and best part of the hand (or the arm?) to carry the weight, even before taking into account which device to use.
index finger extended? fist? fingers straight out and hand flat?
is the back of the hand better to carry weight? or the part between the thumb and the index finger?
Seems like device design should start from there.

[GabrielRice]

A repair tech in Chicago named John (I think) Haynor came up with another way of holding a bass trombone years ago. You can see it here:

And if you scroll down here: https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... nsion.html

It's a great idea and I've played a couple of horns with this setup, but it put my wrist in a very uncomfortable position bent back rather than forward. There was another version, sometimes called the half-Haynor, that moved the thumb lever to where you see it in those pictures but left the finger lever essentially where it is, which kept the wrist straight and supported the weight of the instrument squarely in the crook between the thumb and first finger. I don't see a picture of that, but I had a friend with one at one point.

In both cases, to do it right really required the tech installing it to customize it to the hand of the one person who would be playing it.

[jacobgarchik]

do you think haynor is better ergonomically though?

[GabrielRice]

do you think haynor is better ergonomically though?

As I said, I found the full Haynor conversion as pictured above to be quite uncomfortable, so no. In addition to bending my wrist back, it felt like the instrument was precariously balanced.

[dbwhitaker]

I tried a Rath piece that supports the back of the hand, and that was great except that it dulled the response of the instrument.

Does this suggest that attaching a grip aid to the cross brace (e.g. Rath) has a negative effect doesn't occur (or is at least lessened) when grips attach to the slide receiver or neckpipe (e.g. calderpip, Maiocco, Neotech, Greenhoe rest bar, etc.)? Or is this perhaps due to the larger mass of the Rath? Or something else entirely?

[GabrielRice]

Does this suggest that attaching a grip aid to the cross brace (e.g. Rath) has a negative effect doesn't occur (or is at least lessened) when grips attach to the slide receiver or neckpipe (e.g. calderpip, Maiocco, Neotech, Greenhoe rest bar, etc.)? Or is this perhaps due to the larger mass of the Rath? Or something else entirely?

I think it's because it's attached to a cross brace. It behaves a lot like a counterweight - which some people like.

[Burgerbob]

I find the clampy grips make the most difference in response, the heavier the more difference they make. Otherwise I would probably use the Pawel Wilk grip on everything.

[JTeagarden]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

They'll just be paid off by Big Grip

Exactly, the musical-industrial complex Eisenhower warned us about.

[Kbiggs]

I bit the bullet and ordered a Maiocco grip. I’m out of town for a few days, so I’ll see what it’s like when I get back.

BTW—this is probably old news—did anyone notice a difference between older and newer versions of the Sheridan GaG? The newer ones are wider and have a different shape to them. There’s a flat area just after the hook that wraps around the slide. It took me a while to re-shape the one on my tenor it so it was comfortable.

[BigBadandBass]

I bit the bullet and ordered a Maiocco grip. I’m out of town for a few days, so I’ll see what it’s like when I get back.

BTW—this is probably old news—did anyone notice a difference between older and newer versions of the Sheridan GaG? The newer ones are wider and have a different shape to them. There’s a flat area just after the hook that wraps around the slide. It took me a while to re-shape the one on my tenor it so it was comfortable.

Yeah my Newer GaG was a pain to adjust and different than my friends old one. It was comfortablish but i could never adjust it just right.

Fwiw its worth personally i really dig my Maiocco, haven’t had time to do the bending yet but its as comfortable as my GaG regardless. Prolly gonna bend it and maybe add some Tennis Racket tape or something to it just to give it some cushion

[Tbarh]

I have tried almost everything (not the Haynor grip), and by far the best for me is the new Yamaha strap.. Almost no interfering with the instrument as most of it is wrapped around the hand . No extra weight, Extremely simple concept.. very adjustable ,very cheap.. My search has ended.. Not sure how easy it is to get hold of now . I bought mine from Japan on eBay..

[Burgerbob]

I've got a Maiocco now- first impressions are this is the best one yet. I've had some tendon problems in my left upper arm for a while and even though I've been putting in long days on my M&W, those have gone away. Very impressed.

[norbie2018]

I like mine too, but does anyone have suggestions for adding cushioning to it?

[GabrielRice]

I like mine too, but does anyone have suggestions for adding cushioning to it?

Have you adjusted it to fit your hand really well? I think I got mine to conform well enough that I don't feel the need for any extra cushioning.

[Burgerbob]

I haven't felt any need on mine either.

[norbie2018]

I think it fits very well, just needs some cushioning on the part that fits over the back of the hand. Perhaps I'm used to the Neotech which offers a certain degree of flex and cushion.

[KWL]

Gabe wrote: “I think the Maiocco grip will work, and it will have the advantage of being easier to get in and out of for mute changes.”

This is what I’m looking forward to when mine arrives. I played a dance band gig where one piece called for “hand in bell.” My left hand strapped into the Neotech brace made that a challenge.

Ken

[UrbanaDave]

Thanks for this great list, Aidan. Ordered a Maiocco and am just now realizing thanks to some savvy replies that this thing can be shaped to fit with hot water Game Changer! Loving it on my Olds R-20.

[Burgerbob]

Thanks for this great list, Aidan. Ordered a Maiocco and am just now realizing thanks to some savvy replies that this thing can be shaped to fit with hot water Game Changer! Loving it on my Olds R-20.

Just shaped mine a bit myself! Literally minutes ago.

[Chazzer69]

I think it fits very well, just needs some cushioning on the part that fits over the back of the hand. Perhaps I'm used to the Neotech which offers a certain degree of flex and cushion.

Rumor is this is in the works.

[KWL]

I think it fits very well, just needs some cushioning on the part that fits over the back of the hand. Perhaps I'm used to the Neotech which offers a certain degree of flex and cushion.

Rumor is this is in the works.

I made my own from some sticky back thin foam pad I had lying around. It works well. This would definitely be an improvement to the original product.

Ken

[TromboneMonkey]

Anybody ever have an ergonomics expert study these, or like a physical trainer or alexander technique person? to determine which part of the hand and which position might be best for holding weight?

I'm a PT.

I've been thinking about this for a long time now.

There have been published ergonomics studies done on surgical tools which are relevant to this problem. I tried to come up with a grip that utilizes those findings and applies it to trombone.

The problem is the right angles of the trombone slide create a two dimensional grip where a three dimensional grip is needed.

Usually just curving the slide grip is insufficient to address this, and for some hands actually makes grip more uncomfortable because it forces the wrist into radial deviation which can be painful for sustained positions. Butler came up with (although I know others have also done this prior) a convex slide grip which works better for some for that reason.

The wrist should ideally not be deviated to one side or the other for prolonged periods, and the thumb (specifically the middle joint of the thumb) should not be stressed the way it is when holding a straight trombone, although the trigger mitigates this somewhat and certainly with something like a bullet brace the stress on the thumb is reduced. Furthermore, the wrist should be slightly extended for maximum strength under prolonged load, which is difficult for most players to achieve (some players actually have quite a bit of wrist flexion when playing, which is suboptimal). Lastly, different players will benefit from different forearm versions (supination, pronation) at different times which is almost completely impossible while holding a trombone.

The Maiocco honestly looks like the best solution I've seen so far in that it allows for theoretical adjustment of wrist deviation and forearm supination/pronation. The problem I had with the Calderpips (which also allows for these things) is I felt it added increased stress on the thumb and didn't allow for enough wrist extension. I'd like to try the Maiocco to see if it fixed these issues for me. In the mean time I'll keep trying to design a thing haha.

Gabe is not wrong about using larger muscles; the best evidence we have right now shows that people performing repetitive tasks who preferentially utilize shoulder/periscapular musculature are much less likely to deal with elbow tendinopathies and neuropathies like carpal tunnel, which makes sense as these injuries are associated with over/misuse of the more distal musculature. Keep exercising!

The use of the right hand is a whole 'nother ball of wax...

[timothy42b]

For me the Maiocco is by far the most comfortable.
But it only fits on the horn I rarely use, and trying to bend one to fit didn't work.
On my regular horn I have a Neotech now, and they come with a variety of clamps, but I don't like the flexible support. Has anybody tried to see if a Maiocco can be modified to work with the Neotech clamp?

[Burgerbob]

For me the Maiocco is by far the most comfortable.
But it only fits on the horn I rarely use, and trying to bend one to fit didn't work.
On my regular horn I have a Neotech now, and they come with a variety of clamps, but I don't like the flexible support. Has anybody tried to see if a Maiocco can be modified to work with the Neotech clamp?

What horn were you trying to fit it to?

[Kbiggs]

Rumor is this is in the works.

I made my own from some sticky back thin foam pad I had lying around. It works well. This would definitely be an improvement to the original product.

Ken

I did something similar to mine. I put some sticky-back felt on the inside after shaping it. It’s fairly thin felt, maybe 1/8” or so. It works well on my 42.

[anothertrombone]

Since no one mentioned it, can I assume the Maiocco grip doesn't affect the sound or response of the horn? That was one big issue I had with the Calderpips grip I have.

[GARRISONTROMBONE]

I have tried almost everything (not the Haynor grip), and by far the best for me is the new Yamaha strap.. Almost no interfering with the instrument as most of it is wrapped around the hand . No extra weight, Extremely simple concept.. very adjustable ,very cheap.. My search has ended.. Not sure how easy it is to get hold of now . I bought mine from Japan on eBay..

Just curious, I'm unaware of the "new" yamaha strap. Is it this one (I just searched on ebay)?

How is it better than the old yamaha strap, or the leather specialties strap?
Thanks

[Tbarh]

Yes...that's the one !
Because of the angles and geometry this one works better than anything I have found in the market..With one exception; if You play an older Conn 88 or Conn bass ,You may need to alter the thumb grip..But it's worth it.. I haven't looked back

[musicofnote]

https://5d832781b3df5.site123.me/trombone-braces