Throwing in the Tenor Towel

[JTeagarden]

Over time, I have determined that the bass trombone is simply a more natural fit for me, and that my Corporation 50, with a new set of Instrument Innovations rotary valves and a Grieco Markey 87 mouthpiece, is a very natural fit, allowing me to improve all across the horn in terms of range, flexibility, and consistency.

The downside: I have pretty much lost my tenor chops, completely! I have been working with Doug Elliott to try to dial in a MP for my Bach 42, and I might as well be learning to play a new instrument: no resonance, no room in the MP for my tongue, just an extremely bad experience all around.

And so it hit me: Why don't I just play bass bone, reasonably well, and be done with it? I have a better range on it (roughly pedal Gb to high C) than on the tenor these days, and have no trouble getting around the horn, with a good sound all over.

Be on the lookout for the following, to go on sale soon:

An MV 16
A straight Corp 36
A Corp 42 that was rebuilt by Scott Sweeney, and would be the bomb on the right hands


Sad day of reckoning...

[GabrielRice]

I would recommend keeping your 42 and getting a hybrid mouthpiece from Doug - probably an LB113/I/I8 - for when you get a call to play 2nd in an orchestra or the trombone chair in a brass quintet or something like that.

[hyperbolica]

Wow, not sure whether to offer congratulations or condolences. This is the thing that I'm afraid will be in my future. It sounds like you're doing the right thing for your situation, though. If I try to think of myself in that situation, giving up tenor would be really hard.

[muschem]

I started exploring bass after returning to playing, and it has been a very interesting journey. I had previously only ever played tenor. After the initial period of getting my bass equipment dialed in, I found that the upper range on bass felt easier for me compared to tenor. This lead to a period of experimenting with increasing rim sizes on tenor (Doug Elliott's system is fantastic for this), until finally, I ended up with the same rim size on both. I've since tried going back to slightly smaller rims on tenor a couple times, and I just can't get comfortable on smaller rims anymore.

Doug would of course be able to give you better advice, but if you like the Markey 87 on bass, you might consider a DE setup for tenor in the LB series - maybe an LB112 or LB113 rim paired with an LB F or G cup on large tenor. I used the SB series on tenor for a while, which isn't too far from the XT or SYM series. If you find a mouthpiece setup that works for you on tenor, you might also try a larger bore slide with a tenor bell - whether a single bore .562 or a dual bore .547/.562. I always thought that setup would be much harder to play, but I actually find that I get better sound and response *easier* with a bass slide on a large tenor bell.

Not trying to talk you out of focusing on bass. I totally get that - I enjoy it more than tenor, myself. Just tossing ideas out there. Best of luck, whichever direction you go.

[JTeagarden]

I love tenor, too much so to be sounding so horribly, it's utter garbage these days...

I was using an MB 109/MB J/J8 combo that was reasonable to play, it just made the horn fairly "bottom heavy" in terms of its wheelhouse, basically that of a bass, and what Doug sent to try out, an XT N 104/XT F+/XT F4 and then a EUPH MN 105/SYM H//H8, just sounded like I was playing a kazoo.

[Kingfan]

I downsized my arsenal of tbones last year from 6 to 2 and regret selling some of them. I suggest hanging on to the 42, at least, for a while until you are totally sure you don't want or need it. Just my opinion.

[BrianJohnston]

For me Tenor/alto are a more natural fit. I’m quite a bad bass player by nature but I try to do it anyway. Funny how different we all are.

[Doug Elliott]

It is very true for some that:
"the upper range on bass felt easier for me compared to tenor. This lead to a period of experimenting with increasing rim sizes on tenor (Doug Elliott's system is fantastic for this), until finally, I ended up with the same rim size on both. "
That's why I make all the extremely odd combinations... if that's what you need, there's no other easy way to do it.

Now that I understand your situation better I'd have different suggestions.

And Brian's situation is pretty much the opposite. Due to differences in facial structure, embouchure type and function, some players have to play on small rim sizes and are completely lost on bigger rims.

[Kbiggs]

I started playing bass late in life, too. An opportunity came up in my early 20’s to play bass in the university orchestra. I found a horn, and practiced. I’ve always considered myself a doubler who plays tenor and bass, though. And yes, my high range is better on bass than it is on tenor, although that’s probably due to practice and not innate ability.

Coincidentally, I have settled on almost the exact same equipment: Bach 50, Instrument Innovations valves, Markey 87. I occasionally use an Elliott LB 113 L, depending on repertoire.

Along with the other folks, I’d suggest keeping your 42. If your tenor playing is anything like mine, then perhaps a 103 to 104 rim with a G or a G+ cup. Any series will work, but the XT and SYMPH lines will give you more width or breadth without sounding too nasal or kazoo-like. I tried a 113 with an I-cup (maybe an H-cup?) for a while, but I couldn’t make it work the way I wanted. I couldn’t get a characteristic tenor sound on it, and endurance was problematic.

The GB 4 series is similar in size, although the rims are a very different shape than Doug’s mpcs. I’m currently using a GB mpc with the .277”/#1 throat/backbore combinations, as suggested by Gabe.

When switch between tenor and bass, I have to remember that they’re really different instruments. Air expenditure is different due to slightly more resistance. Thinking about a more focused embouchure has been really helpful. My “normal embouchure setting” for my 42 is between a tuning B-flat and upper F, while for bass it’s an octave below that (within the staff).

Sorry, too much advice. Just another way to say I’ve been there. Hope it works out for you.

[JTeagarden]

Now that I understand your situation better I'd have different suggestions.

Before I have enough DE inventory to open a DE branch in MI, I should send back the two you recently sent me!

[harrisonreed]

Being good at bass seems to be about 200% as difficult physically as being good at tenor. Good on you for thinking that is the easier way!

[JTeagarden]

Being good at bass seems to be about 200% as difficult physically as being good at tenor. Good on you for thinking that is the easier way!

I was a wrestler and a rugby player for years, gross motor skills come naturally!

[ithinknot]

Commiserations, and good luck whatever you choose.

Genuinely intrigued by this part, though...

no room in the MP for my tongue

[Burgerbob]

Tenor can feel this way when the oral cavity is very low and open- feels fine on bass, tenor doesn't tolerate it. Been there done that!

[Lhbone]

Tenor can feel this way when the oral cavity is very low and open- feels fine on bass, tenor doesn't tolerate it. Been there done that!

ditto! I almost made a complete switch to bass during covid for similar "comfort" reasons. Had to take a few steps back and learn how to re-approach tenor from a less "open" standpoint.

[JTeagarden]

Commiserations, and good luck whatever you choose.

Genuinely intrigued by this part, though...

no room in the MP for my tongue

Meaning in closing my oral caivity with the tenor MP, my tongue has no place to go!

I'm consoling myself by listening to Walter Wanderley, great antidote, answering the question "what if Jimmy Smith had grown up in Rio?"

[Lhbone]

Commiserations, and good luck whatever you choose.

Genuinely intrigued by this part, though...

Meaning in closing my oral caivity with the tenor MP, my tongue has no place to go!

I'm consoling myself by listening to Walter Wanderley, great antidote, answering the question "what if Jimmy Smith had grown up in Rio?"

You mentioned working with DE for mouthpieces. Have you worked with him on this specific issue?

[ithinknot]

Tenor can feel this way when the oral cavity is very low and open- feels fine on bass, tenor doesn't tolerate it. Been there done that!

Fair enough... I probably tend toward the opposite problem, easy Bb5 on any rim but getting the back of the tongue low enough to fully feed the low range on bass has never become second nature.

I'm consoling myself by listening to Walter Wanderley, great antidote, answering the question "what if Jimmy Smith had grown up in Rio?"

Nightmare fuel beyond a certain quantity, but I love it

[JTeagarden]

Meaning in closing my oral caivity with the tenor MP, my tongue has no place to go!

I'm consoling myself by listening to Walter Wanderley, great antidote, answering the question "what if Jimmy Smith had grown up in Rio?"

You mentioned working with DE for mouthpieces. Have you worked with him on this specific issue?

Yes, but I've been spitballing it on my end, time to give Doug better insight! Taking so well to the Markey 87 that it's taken me a long way from any tenor MP that had worked well in the past.

[JTeagarden]

After adjusting from the Markey 87 to a Markey 95 on bass, I played a bit on my bach 42 with a DE MB 109 piece, and with a certain leadpipe, and using a much smaller airstream, it might be doable!