Benge 175f

[hyperbolica]

I've owned one of these Benge 175fs in the past. It was in great shape, but I got rid of it because it was very similar to a 79h I had at the time. My impression was that it was pretty dark, but I really liked it. I just liked the 79h more.

Anyway, I just bought the one rjmason had for sale, with the acid finish by Scott Sweeney. This is a completely different animal. This one is very much like the 3b+F, which itself is a fun horn, but the 175 is somewhat more controlled and refined. I've had a couple 3b+Fs recently too, and they are in turn like a more open and stable 3b.

Rjmason said Sweeney had this one apart and reassembled it. Whatever he did, this horn is magic. It doesn't play like the other one I owned, which was also a great horn, but in a very different way. This one borders on bright, with a fantastic slide, and just so easy to play.

My first instinct was to use a DE XT 104 D+ with a 4 shank. And this gives great high range, almost trumpety brightness. Switching to an F cup gives a more conventional light 36b-ish sound. The trigger range is clear and open. Love this thing.

There weren't that many of these made. If you see one for sale and you're at all into a lighter 525 sound, grab it. It's super addictive and I wonder why all trombones weren't built this way.

The acid finish ranges from purple to orange to black to blue and even a little yellow.

I know this will work in quintet, where I've been playing the 3b+f. It will work with the college band where I'm the only bone. Quartet when I get to play renor is like 4 distinct voices rather than a homogeneous blend.

Still haven't checked intonation, but it feels so good, I'll make it work regardless.

Update: the intonation is a little sharp. I've got the main tuning slide pulled almost two inches. Relative tuning within the horn is what you'd expect. The mouthpiece shank doesn't fit like other Kings (mpc goes too deep) , it fits more normally.

[JLivi]

You could just tell by the description and photos that the horn was going to play beautifully. I'm glad you enjoy it!

I feel like the Benge 175f would be my daily driver if the open wrap wasn't so long. Enjoy the horn!

[RJMason]

Glad you love it! I was quite sad to see it go (luckily I have several horns Scott has redone to hold me over!) What a wonderful resonator. Scott’s work is unmatched (I call him the millennial Minick lol)

[LeTromboniste]

I regret not buying a Benge a few years back when they always sold for extremely cheap. Now that I was actively looking to find one, they always seem to sell in the $1500-2000 range when taking into account shipping and taxes, just a bit over my budget for this... But every Benge I've ever tried, of any model, has been a really solid instrument, easy to play and great sound that's its own thing and doesn't feel like it's trying to be a Bach or a Conn.

[Posaunus]

It wasn't many years ago that Benge trombones (pretty much all of them) were being disparaged on the Trombone Forum. These trombones are no better now than they were then. What's changed?

[Full disclosure: I have enjoyed playing a refurbished Benge 165F since I purchased it in 2014, and I have seriously considered - but resisted - acquiring a Benge 170 and Benge 175F. These were fine and versatile trombones - neither Bach nor Conn.]

[spencercarran]

I enjoy my 175f. Super versatile horn.

[LeTromboniste]

It wasn't many years ago that Benge trombones (pretty much all of them) were being disparaged on the Trombone Forum. These trombones are no better now than they were then. What's changed?

[Full disclosure: I have enjoyed playing a refurbished Benge 165F since I purchased it in 2014, and I have seriously considered - but resisted - acquiring a Benge 170 and Benge 175F. These were fine and versatile trombones - neither Bach nor Conn.]

I think maybe what has changed is there has been a bit of a pendulum swing coming (somewhat) away back from the "huge, heavy and dark" extreme we were at at the time? And/or maybe it's just that enough time has passed since they stopped production for them to be seen as vintage and therefore desirable...I don't know, but I loved the ones I tried even 15 years ago, and I will regret forever not getting the excellent Benge 290 that I was offered for 2000$ CAD and ended up not buying because I thought an alto was a higher priority purchase at the time... I had the chance to play that horn again a couple times because a friend did buy it, and it's by far the easiest bass trombone to play I've ever tried. I could (and did) just pick it up and instantly play at my best with no adaptation time. The only pro orchestra audition I ever took on bass trombone, I hadn't played a bass in over a year, I borrowed that horn only 10 days before the audition, and advanced to the next round. That was of course reckless, but also I would not have been able to do that on any other bass I've ever played.

[hyperbolica]

It wasn't many years ago that Benge trombones (pretty much all of them) were being disparaged on the Trombone Forum. These trombones are no better now than they were then. What's changed?

[Full disclosure: I have enjoyed playing a refurbished Benge 165F since I purchased it in 2014, and I have seriously considered - but resisted - acquiring a Benge 170 and Benge 175F. These were fine and versatile trombones - neither Bach nor Conn.]

I've owned 1 other 175 and a 170. Both of them were fantastic. I also played a 290 and didn't like it. I really wanted to get that 190 that came up cheap recently, but I really didn't need it.

Opinions are weird. Sometimes one person will give an opinion, and others just don't want to contradict it. To me Benge is between King and Bach. I played some at conferences when they were new. They were great horns then too, but I wasn't in buy mode then.

Anyway, really enjoying mine. The 175f may be the best Benge ever.

[Posaunus]

Benge trombones: better (appreciated) late then never!

[RJMason]

Ingredients to make a 175F:

King 2125 (80s 3B+) gold brass bell. Have a tech do an additional heat treatment on the bell. King 3B tuning slide. Custom open wrap design (long P) Edge bracing to let bell resonate freely. King 4BF rotor valve with Conn 88H linkage (or modernize as desired). King 3B+ inner slide tubes and slide barrels. King 608 outer slide. Voila!

[hyperbolica]

Ingredients to make a 175F:

King 2125 (80s 3B+) gold brass bell. Have a tech do an additional heat treatment on the bell. King 3B tuning slide. Custom open wrap design (long P) Edge bracing to let bell resonate freely. King 4BF rotor valve with Conn 88H linkage (or modernize as desired). King 3B+ inner slide tubes and slide barrels. King 608 outer slide. Voila!

That makes sense. My 3b+f is a pretty good instrument, using it as a starting point for something better works out nicely. The 175 definitely has a more legit feel than the 3b+. But the DE D+ mouthpiece in the 175 captures the zing of the 3b+, while the DE F mouthpiece is on the lighter side of a 36b. Posaunus pointed out Doug recommends his E piece for 79h, which is right in the middle and gives the 175 it's own character.

The 175 definitely has a more stable, more controlled, more legit feeling than the 3b+, which it seems was part of the reason for the whole trombone side of the Benge line to begin with. It's a shame there weren't more of these made, but the 36b sucks most of the 525 air out of the market. 36b is a fine instrument as well, just a bit on the more legit end of things.

[JTeagarden]

Glad you love it! I was quite sad to see it go (luckily I have several horns Scott has redone to hold me over!) What a wonderful resonator. Scott’s work is unmatched (I call him the millennial Minick lol)

Scott disassembled and re-assembled my Corporation-era Bach 42B, and put on a new rotary valve, this is the best 42 I've ever played, zero quirks.

[hyperbolica]

Today was the first time I took the 175f out of the house. Played with a tbone section of a college band. One of the section was on bass and the other on a Martin Urbie. You don't run across sections like that too often, but it sounded good. If the first player had been on 547, it would have sounded odd, I think. Even the sax player ahead of us gave us a compliment which has never happened.

While tuning, I noticed I was quite sharp. I had to pull almost 2". This horn may have been cut. I have another slide that has been shortened, and that is part of my favorite horn. I know there are those who feel cheated unless they can tell people they push their tuning slide all the way in. I don't really get that, but both horns I have where I have to pull the slide are the #1 and #2 playing horns I have.

The only reason I know of to cut a horn would be to allow slide vibrato in 1st position. I'm fine with that. The open slide doesn't bother me either. It plays and sounds great. I wish I had a setting where I had to play sotta voce, I think this horn has the subtlety to pull that off in spades. Never had a horn that was so responsive at such low volume. This is not an orchestral horn. I haven't tried playing it loud, but I'd guess it has limits. It's a chamber and solo axe. And bright enough for jazz. It's like a 508 with a valve. When you hear this, you think "ah, yes, tenor yes, that's a tenor sound."

So between the Duo Gravis and the Benge 175f, King has completely recalibrated my sense of sound.

[slidesix]

I love the timbre of the Benge trombones! Had I not been on a kick to experience Bach Strads and King, I would have bought a Benge or some Benges and left it at that! They have a buttery tone to them that is quite captivating particularly the 190F and 170F. The tone they seem to put out to be has this cello-like tone that seems like it would be great in chamber music. The Freelancer small bore and the 290 bass sound quite lovely, too.

[slidesix]

Hyperbolica, on the Benge 170F do the slide cork barrels /slide bumpers have springs like a Conn 88H does? Or are the slide bumpers solid cork with no springs like a Bach strad? I always thought I read that these probably have springs--which I am most used to. Thanks!

[hyperbolica]

Hyperbolica, on the Benge 170F do the slide cork barrels /slide bumpers have springs like a Conn 88H does?...

175f, the 525 horn. No springs. Might be cork or felt. I used to wind string in there as a bumper. This horn has been worked through completely, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if anything is not stock configuration.

My teacher took the springs out of my 88h, so I repented of my springs early on.

[Posaunus]

... on the Benge 170F do the slide cork barrels /slide bumpers have springs like a Conn 88H does? Or are the slide bumpers solid cork with no springs like a Bach strad? I always thought I read that these probably have springs--which I am most used to.

Benge trombones are not related in any way to Conn. They are essentially King trombones, made in the King factory. Unlike some Conn large-bore tenor and bass trombones (but like almost all non-Conn trombones), Benges do not have slide bumper springs.

It is possible to add bumper springs to any trombone - but the slide may then be a little farther out in first position (thus making it flatter) and you may have to relocate (resolder) the slide lock lug on the upper outer slide.

[chromebone]

... on the Benge 170F do the slide cork barrels /slide bumpers have springs like a Conn 88H does? Or are the slide bumpers solid cork with no springs like a Bach strad? I always thought I read that these probably have springs--which I am most used to.

Benge trombones are not related in any way to Conn. They are essentially King trombones, made in the King factory. Unlike some Conn large-bore tenor and bass trombones (but like almost all non-Conn trombones), Benges do not have slide bumper springs.

It is possible to add bumper springs to any trombone - but the slide may then be a little farther out in first position (thus making it flatter) and you may have to relocate (resolder) the slide lock lug on the upper outer slide.

The 190’s and 290’s absolutely did come with springs, at least until late in production, as did all large bore and bass Kings until later in their production. I’m not sure about the 170 or 175, I assume they were like the small and medium bore Kings and did not have them. I have a 190 in my possession right now with slide springs, and two others where I had them removed.

[harrisonreed]

King / Benge seem to be designed to be tuned as if they had springs, even the 3Bs. I know 3Bs do not come with sitting and probably never did, but Bb on those babies should be tuned well off the bumpers. Benges I've tried didn't have springs but same thing.

Same with 88H.

[Posaunus]

The 190’s and 290’s absolutely did come with springs, at least until late in production, as did all large bore and bass Kings until later in their production. I’m not sure about the 170 or 175, I assume they were like the small and medium bore Kings and did not have them. I have a 190 in my possession right now with slide springs, and two others where I had them removed.

Thanks chromebone. I stand embarrassedly corrected. I should not be so absolute in my assertions, especially considering my ignorance. I own a Benge 165F (S/N 843033) which does not have slide bumper springs. I have also seen a Benge 170 and Benge 175F which did not have springs. I no longer have access to a 190F, so can't verify if it had springs.

I personally love the springs on my Conn 88H (1972) and Conn 71H (1969). To each his own.

[chromebone]

It’s possible the 165’s didn’t have springs. I think they were gone from all UMI/Conn Selmer horns by the late 90’s. I have two earlier production 1980’s 190’s with the older block engraving that had slide springs, and a late 90’s production one with the fancier engraving that doesn’t look like it ever had springs, it didn’t have them when I got the horn. On the ones where I had the springs removed, the slide lock cam had to be repositioned, on the later production horn, it doesn’t look like the cam has ever been moved.
I have a King 7B that had springs as well, but I had them removed.

[slidesix]

hyperbolica, Posaunus, chromebone, and Harrison Reed:

Thank you for sharing your experience and knownledge on King / Benge. I always learn things everything I come to this forum. Thanks!

[Tubaaiyue]

I've owned one of these Benge 175fs in the past. It was in great shape, but I got rid of it because it was very similar to a 79h I had at the time. My impression was that it was pretty dark, but I really liked it. I just liked the 79h more.

Anyway, I just bought the one rjmason had for sale, with the acid finish by Scott Sweeney. This is a completely different animal. This one is very much like the 3b+F, which itself is a fun horn, but the 175 is somewhat more controlled and refined. I've had a couple 3b+Fs recently too, and they are in turn like a more open and stable 3b.

Rjmason said Sweeney had this one apart and reassembled it. Whatever he did, this horn is magic. It doesn't play like the other one I owned, which was also a great horn, but in a very different way. This one borders on bright, with a fantastic slide, and just so easy to play.

My first instinct was to use a DE XT 104 D+ with a 4 shank. And this gives great high range, almost trumpety brightness. Switching to an F cup gives a more conventional light 36b-ish sound. The trigger range is clear and open. Love this thing.

There weren't that many of these made. If you see one for sale and you're at all into a lighter 525 sound, grab it. It's super addictive and I wonder why all trombones weren't built this way.

The acid finish ranges from purple to orange to black to blue and even a little yellow.

I know this will work in quintet, where I've been playing the 3b+f. It will work with the college band where I'm the only bone. Quartet when I get to play renor is like 4 distinct voices rather than a homogeneous blend.

Still haven't checked intonation, but it feels so good, I'll make it work regardless.

Update: the intonation is a little sharp. I've got the main tuning slide pulled almost two inches. Relative tuning within the horn is what you'd expect. The mouthpiece shank doesn't fit like other Kings (mpc goes too deep) , it fits more normally.

175F Compared to 79H, which one is easier to blow and more flexible?

[hyperbolica]

Those are really different instruments. The simple answer is probably the 175f is easier to blow and more flexible. But that comes with some caveats.

About 10 years ago I owned both at the same time, and I chose the 79h. My 79h had a very dark sound, but it was nimble. The 79h was probably more consistent with a range of mouthpieces (say DE D cup to an F or G cup).

Since then I got rid of the 79h because it was so similar to an 8h with the sl2525 slide. And now I have a 175f. This 175f has been taken apart and reassembled by Sweeney. It's a very bright or "tenory" horn. The mouthpieces change the horn more. I prefer the DE D+3 on the Benge, and it's simply brighter, maybe more open.

I have to add, though, that the 78h without the valve could also be very bright - earsplittingly bright when you lean on it. I've had multiple 78hs that I got rid of for that reason. Never played one that wasn't that way.

I would say that the 175 is maybe harder to control than the 79h, but that's part of being more flexible. The 79h is maybe darker than you want it to be. Nothing is really ideal, except maybe an old Bach 36 NY.

If I could have one horn it would be an 88h w/525. 2 horns, I'd add the Benge 175f. 3 Horns, get a Getzen 3508. The 79h is a great instrument but very close yet somewhat less than an 88h. If you do a lot of more legit stuff, the 79h might be a better choice. The 175f can stand in for small bore or jazz/pop style better. It's not a simple answer.

[Tubaaiyue]

Has anyone used solotone on 175f?

[WGWTR180]

Since then I got rid of the 79h because it was so similar to an 8h with the sl2525 slide.

If I could have one horn it would be an 88h w/525.

Slightly off topic but since you mentioned it: The Conn sl2525 is a modern slide, correct? I've been thinking about this for years.

[hyperbolica]

Slightly off topic but since you mentioned it: The Conn sl2525 is a modern slide, correct? I've been thinking about this for years.

Yeah, I got my first one in ~2003. Combining that with 8h or 88h gives a really great playing horn.

[Posaunus]

Slightly off topic but since you mentioned it: The Conn SL2525 is a modern slide, correct? I've been thinking about this for years.

Yeah, I got my first one in ~2003. Combining that with 8H or 88H gives a really great playing horn.

In 2022, I had the opportunity to purchase (from a music retailer's storeroom) a "NOS" (new old stock) Conn SL2547 slide (0.525"/0.547" dual bore w/ 2 leadpipes. Probably manufactured in early 2000s (no way for me to tell) and sat for 20 years - but it's in perfect condition. Pairs beautifully with my 1972 (very late Elkhart) Conn 88H.

[m4tth3w]

ive been looking for one of these at a good price for a minute!! itll pop up one day

[Trombola2112]

ive been looking for one of these at a good price for a minute!! itll pop up one day

I know what you mean. I'd like to get one for my 88HO, but really don't want to pay "new" prices.

[Tubaaiyue]

.

[hyperbolica]

So 79H requires a bit more effort to play, but the sound it produces sounds great, while 175F is efficient and doesn't require the effort needed to reach 79H, and the sound quality is also very good?

Sort of. The Benge is very bright, and the 79h is much darker. Think a Conn / King difference. The Benge is turning out to be great for pop tunes at wedding gigs, and the 79h was a great lead orchestral horn, or chamber music lead.

PS: The Benge, and the equivalent King 3b+F I think of as really a 3rd trumpet part. Especially in the upper range it starts sounding very trumpety with quick articulations and bright timber. The 79h I had had the darker sound of a bigger horn, but was very nimble and flexible. Very different horns that look identical on paper.