Bass Trombone "doubler" Mouthpiece Question

[BrianJohnston]

Hi all,

I'm beginning to double on bass trombone and I have a few mouthpiece questions.

I'm wanting to keep my tenor rim for whatever bass piece I end up with, so because of this, should the cup be deeper to maker sure it's in the bass realm of sound and not tenor-like?

Should I aim for a smaller throat & smaller backbore to make it easier for myself or larger to combat the tenor rim diameter?

Please don't try to convince me on a larger bass rim, I am primarily an Alto/Tenor player who needs to stay in shape on them and i'm pretty rim sensitive considering I play the same rim on my alto/tenor (4.5G).

Thanks

[Doug Elliott]

My SYM/EUPH series is perfect for that. A 102.5 or 103 rim, probably narrow or medium-narrow, with a deep cup, maybe J-euph, or I can make deeper cups too.

I've done that myself but with my XT series which isn't really quite big enough to get the right sound. The EUPH cups have more cup volume so you can get an acceptable bass sound.

[BrianJohnston]

Hey Doug thanks. i'm looking to get some parts to figure this out. Would you recommend a tighter shank for someone like me? standard, or more open to balance all of the above?

[Doug Elliott]

What horn will you be playing it on?

[BrianJohnston]

A Bach 50

[hyperbolica]

You can play bass and tenor on a single tenor rim, but you'll sacrifice useful low range on the bass. I've tried it, lots of others have tried it. It makes playing bass kind of pointless.

[harrisonreed]

If you are using a narrow rim on bass, you will likely benefit from a much larger throat than a tenor or euph mouthpiece.

I designed a doubler piece that is a 1.07" size (this is specific for me), but it is very deep and has a .311" throat.

A tight throat and scaling everything back will just make it even less like a real bass trombone mouthpiece.

Go deep (to help the sound) and get something that will let you throw air (big throat) at the problems you're going to have in the low register, around a C below the staff and beyond.

[Doug Elliott]

Please don't try to convince me on a larger bass rim, I am primarily an Alto/Tenor player who needs to stay in shape on them and i'm pretty rim sensitive considering I play the same rim on my alto/tenor (4.5G).

I actually think it's a reasonable intermediate step that can work reasonably well, up to a point.

[BrianJohnston]

You can play bass and tenor on a single tenor rim, but you'll sacrifice useful low range on the bass. I've tried it, lots of others have tried it. It makes playing bass kind of pointless.

Will it be sacrificed since the cup will be a lot deeper?

[BrianJohnston]

Harrison I appreciate the info, I’ll keep it in mind. Also congrats on your alto pieces that I’ve been hearing lots of good things about.

[harrisonreed]

Harrison I appreciate the info, I’ll keep it in mind. Also congrats on your alto pieces that I’ve been hearing lots of good things about.

Thank you Brian!

I think you can make the narrow cup work, it'll just need a lot of finesse if there are acrobatics happening below the staff. Being able to throw some air around can help with there. Good luck in your search!

[hyperbolica]

Will it be sacrificed since the cup will be a lot deeper?

Well, I think so. I used a DE H cup (104 tenor rim) with a Duo Gravis. The result was a tenorish bass sound with limited bottom. I also have a DE Euph 104 J, which on the DG was still kind of thin. 108 J is on the lean end of what I could make work on bass. 108 K is pretty manageable.

I've heard of people using up to 106 sized rims on tenor. If you can make that work, a 106J is still on the fringes, but probably within range for bass. You'll have to spend some time on both tenor and bass setups, though.

I guess it depends on what you're trying to achieve on bass. If you want something darker than tenor with about the same range, you might be ok. If you're really trying to sound like a bass, even by my diluted definition, you might find limited results.

[BrianJohnston]

I want to be able to survive as a bass sub in the orchestra scene, while still primarily being known as a tenor/alto player.

[hyperbolica]

Volume level, range, articulation... Some orchestral rep will let you get away with it. If it spends a lot of time below the staff, or heavy accents or loud passages, it will betray itself.

[BrianJohnston]

Of those things maybe low range will be an issue, but I’ll work on it. Think this seems like an acceptable sacrifice.

[LIBrassCo]

I just came out with a new one for this that people really like, been calling it the Double Double. Works well for tenor players doubling on bass, and vice versa. 26.75mm rim

[Doldom]

I just came out with a new one for this that people really like, been calling it the Double Double. Works well for tenor players doubling on bass, and vice versa. 26.75mm rim

Wow, is it different design from your Broadway Bass models? or just rim is a little bigger than your 650 Broadway Bass?

[Doldom]

By the way in my amateur humble opinion I'm crossing between both LIbrass broadway bass 600(26mm rim, but feels a little larger. maybe more like 3g-ish rim) and DE SB 105~106 J or K settings. LIbrass does sound like bass and feels comfortable but really the broadness of bass sound can be achieved by slightly larger rim of DE settings. But again, larger rims are slightly uncomfortable and need some practice. DE 102~103 with very deep cup feels tighter than LIbrass 600. maybe because LIbrass piece has very large throat(0.310").
And you can try Greg black Jim Nova mouthpiece, which has 3g rim and 1.5g cup. I sold that piece some time ago but again, in my memory, Greg black piece rim was comfortable but blow felt a little tighter than LIbrass piece.

[LIBrassCo]

I just came out with a new one for this that people really like, been calling it the Double Double. Works well for tenor players doubling on bass, and vice versa. 26.75mm rim

Wow, is it different design from your Broadway Bass models? or just rim is a little bigger than your 650 Broadway Bass?

Completely different animal

[BrianJohnston]

What does the cup, throat, backbore look like on this guy?

[LIBrassCo]

It's a really cool piece, I nerded out hard modeling the cup profile to have different characteristics in different areas in your range, so the the high range has a strong slot and tons of support, but down low it's still slotty but really wide open and just easy. Throat is .318" and the shank is custom for this piece. The specs by themselves don't mean much, it's very much designed to work together.

[hyperbolica]

Tonight I took the Duo Gravis to big band and tried the 104J (my euph mouthpiece) . You could probably practice that into submission, but you'd have to be pretty motivated to want to play that size for bass. It just feels like an oversized tenor piece on bass. It's hard to get C and below to speak quickly.

Switching to my Curry 2.0 D (108 equivalent rim, V shaped cup) made things much easier, and the sound was a better bass sound.

For orchestral bass, I wouldn't recommend the Curry unless you need a lot of bark. DE 108 J or K would be fine.

I'd be interested to hear what combination winds up working for you after a couple orchestra gigs, and what tunes you played. I've tried to downsize my bass equipment as much as possible and I personally don't get good bass results smaller than a 108 rim. Bass to me is anything regularly below low D.

[Doug Elliott]

Brian is a different embouchure type from you, and a smaller mouthpiece should work well for him.

[hyperbolica]

Brian is a different embouchure type from you, and a smaller mouthpiece should work well for him.

Yeah, I figured there was something going on that didn't apply to me. Best of luck, Brian.

[slidesix]

Brian, I am probably one of the last people who should be trying to help here. I'm a tenor player who has never once played a bass trombone, however, I am a tenor player who often covers bass parts using a single trigger Blessing B88 (similar to a 88H) with a Bach 1 1/2 G mouthpiece.

As a tenor player myself, I'd suggest the 1 1/2 G as an approachable bass mouthpiece for a tenor person. It has always worked well for me. There was a small transition period. I feel the 1 1/2 G helped (at the time) with my tenor playing. both may range and endurance improved on tenor after the adjustment period. By that I mean tenor range and endurance. My normal mouthpiece is a 4G.

With that said, I know you aren't looking to be convinced and you'd rather a setup that doesn't negatively impact your tenor and alto playing at all. I understand and respect that. Plus I have never played at your level--let alone professionally--so what worked for me in the past may or may not work for you. Plus you may not have the time nor desire for having to get used to something too different, I understand.

I think for you a mouthpiece similar to what you have on tenor but with added depth in cup as you suggest will be a fine compromise. I understand having or needing to strike a compromise here. and I think your group and section will be totally fine with what you plan to choose for your bass duties! I am no stranger to compromise myself as I wasn't able to afford a bass earlier in life so I went the 88H+ 1 1/2G route myself. So a reverse compromise will probably likely be fine, too.

Good luck with what you choose!

[JamesSp]

Honestly I think it just comes down to how you feel when you play it and/or if you have people around you (who influence if you are hired) that notice or are annoyed by anything to do with your setup. If you make a consistent resonant sound and dont have range issues I really dont think anyone sitting around you cares if it's a little more or less bassy than someone else.

Im a career bass trombone player, but the last couple of years I took a few tenor auditions for fun having never played any serious tenor before. I was very lucky to win 2, Mouthpiece wise I used a Greg black 2G with a 1.5G rim screwed on. My normal bass piece is MUCH bigger than that, so that was as small as I could go keeping any level of acceptable consistency in my tenor playing. I did one tenor audition on a real tenor piece and it was a disaster so I wiped that off proper quick.

I think if you are making a sound that isn't constricted or have any obvious range limitations I dont know that you reeeaaaally need something different to what you normally play on (my opinion has changed on there since I started doing regular tenor).
I won't try to convince you like you asked, but maybe just have a go at something that overall IS a bit bigger but not so alien it feels like a new instrument. Even if just for the mentality that you are playing a different instrument. I am aware that my Mouthpiece on tenor is really a bass Mouthpiece, but its smaller enough for ME that it.... I guess helps give me confidence and mindset for the job, even if maybe just a placebo. Why not try just a 3G? Surely that couldn't hurt your normal tenor playing, and maybe would just give you a slight opening to feel more at home on bass parts. But if no difference, just stick with your normal one. I briefly went down the doublers Mouthpiece rabbit hole. Nothing is ever perfect, and custom work or specialised pieces get super expensive.

[harrisonreed]

I'm going to give it a shot! It may end up a total disaster. We'll have to just try it out!

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[dukesboneman]

I went thru the same dilemma when I started taking Bass Trombone seriously.
The Tenor rim/Bass bottom never worked for me.
What I found worked best for me was to leave the Bass out on a stand and split my practice time between the 2 horns. That way my face got used to switching mouthpiece sizes. 10-15 minutes on Tenor then 10-15 on Bass.
I found that doing this let me approach the Bass Trombone as a different animal because it is.
Now I can move back and forth pretty easily.
Mick Gillette (formerly of Tower of Power) said he used the same approach when getting used to doubling Trumpet and Trombone.

[claf]

That's a good approach.
Today I spent 15 min on my Eb tuba (for fun), 10 min on my small bore trombone (because I was too lazy to unpack the large bore, the small bore is on a stand next to my desk) and a good 30 min on my new Eb alto/tenor horn (new quadruble, yes that's a new word) because I will use it in a concert in 10 days (along with the large bore).
I will also need to reintroduce the trumpet in my rotation, it's my main instrument and I have 2 concerts with it in 17 days.

[LIBrassCo]

There's a lot of opportunity for improvement in that design.

[harrisonreed]

Prototyping a doubler piece in the 1.01" range!

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[WGWTR180]

I went thru the same dilemma when I started taking Bass Trombone seriously.
The Tenor rim/Bass bottom never worked for me.
What I found worked best for me was to leave the Bass out on a stand and split my practice time between the 2 horns. That way my face got used to switching mouthpiece sizes. 10-15 minutes on Tenor then 10-15 on Bass.
I found that doing this let me approach the Bass Trombone as a different animal because it is.
Now I can move back and forth pretty easily.
Mick Gillette (formerly of Tower of Power) said he used the same approach when getting used to doubling Trumpet and Trombone.

For the win!!!

[bassclef]

I went thru the same dilemma when I started taking Bass Trombone seriously.
The Tenor rim/Bass bottom never worked for me.
What I found worked best for me was to leave the Bass out on a stand and split my practice time between the 2 horns. That way my face got used to switching mouthpiece sizes. 10-15 minutes on Tenor then 10-15 on Bass.
I found that doing this let me approach the Bass Trombone as a different animal because it is.
Now I can move back and forth pretty easily.
Mick Gillette (formerly of Tower of Power) said he used the same approach when getting used to doubling Trumpet and Trombone.

For the win!!!

Agreed.

The one other thing I found to be helpful was, when choosing mouthpieces of appropriate size for each horn, select ones where the rim contour and bite are the same. In doing this, I found that even though the sizes are different, the points at which they interface and work with your flesh remain the same. For me - that provides a familiar response when starting notes no matter the other characteristics.