Which is THE "cheap" bass for playing for fun?

[davdud101]

There seem to be a ton of options for bass trombones out there these days. I really only play tenor now, but I have had a couple stints playing bass, and was wondering what options are out there for cheap bass trombones for a guy like me who might pull it out once or twice a year or for home recording sessions.

Is there anything in the $1-1.5k range, or is that a pipe dream? (Perhaps I can spend some time looking locally instead) I see the offerings from places like Thomann and Wessex, but I haven't heard of anyone trying those ones.

Edit: I also just saw that the Schiller is a whooping $650... May that's so cheap that I may go ahead and buy that right now, today

[MahlerMusic]

From time to time I will just place my Bass trombone mouthpieces into my 88H. As long as a lot of volume is not needed or you are playing alone, it will do.

[nateaff]

You can occasionally find a single valve Bach 50 for around $1500. Not having a second valve can be a hassle, but a used Bach is gonna be way better than a JinBao.

Older Yamahas can also be found for pretty cheap.

[RJMason]

Look for a Yamaha 612 they are retro and can be had for cheap. Eventually they will require some modifications to bring them to modern specs but you could always save up for that after the initial purchase.

[ghmerrill]

I also just saw that the Schiller is a whooping $650... May that's so cheap that I may go ahead and buy that right now, today

The Schiller worked fine for me for about ten years. That's it in my picture here. I still have it as my backup. I did have the leadpipe pulled immediately (a bit exciting) and found that a Brass Ark MV50 or M/K MK50 works very well in it. The slide has been great. Ultimately, it's somewhat restricted in the double valve range -- I think because of the rotor size or maybe some alignment issues there. But overall I never had any problems with it. The fit and finish is surprisingly good -- except in a couple of cases, like the 2nd valve pivot. I eventually had that replaced by an Instrument Innovations part (by Mike Morse at Tuba Exchange), which helped a lot. I did tinker with the 2nd valve lever, but that's often an issue for anyone. A Bullet Brace results in huge improvement in holding. The tubing is done sufficiently well that you can actually interchange the F and Gb slides without effort -- at least on my horn. I experimented with a flat G tuning, but not very much.

Anyhow, that's my experience.

Be aware that if you buy from Schiller, their "return" policy is really a "replace" policy. So you can't do a "try before you buy". They basically don't take returns, but will replace what you have. I feel that Troy Laabs was always honest with me, but you do need to take a bit of care in reading their policies, not reading something into them that isn't there, and being careful with your parsing and the semantics. If you have any questions, get clarity on them before ordering. The case is one of those generic Chinese fabric-covered cases (but with ply panels). It's sufficiently good (and light!) that my Getzen lives in it now.

[wayne88ny]

Ebay:
Reynolds Contempora Bass Trombone - auction $575 - no bids
Reynolds Contempora Bass Trombone $1499 or Best Offer

Musical Instrument City - Elkhart Conn 71H $1500

[sf105]

There's a lot to be said for the Conn 7XH basses. Not so fashionable but does the job. They can be very variable, so you need to try before you buy.
Depending on what material you're playing, a second valve might not be worth it especially if you don't want to put the time in to learn how to use it.
And seconding MahlerMusic's point, that you can get a lot done with a bass mouthpiece in a symphony tenor.

[davdud101]

From time to time I will just place my Bass trombone mouthpieces into my 88H. As long as a lot of volume is not needed or you are playing alone, it will do.

That's been one of my go-to moves on my Yamaha 548 with a 1.5G. I just find that there is no replacing the accuracy and ease of blow that I get on a bass when playing (for example) big band bass stuff. Fun stuff nonetheless

You can occasionally find a single valve Bach 50 for around $1500. Not having a second valve can be a hassle, but a used Bach is gonna be way better than a JinBao.

Older Yamahas can also be found for pretty cheap.

Look for a Yamaha 612 they are retro and can be had for cheap. Eventually they will require some modifications to bring them to modern specs but you could always save up for that after the initial purchase.

Thanks guys, I'll take a look at them! I'm a huge Yamaha fan (my main small bore is a 3B, but I lust after a pro small bore Yamaha.. especially after gigging a few nights on one this past summer). On the flip side, I may end up keeping the budget lower after all. We'll see what happens.

[davdud101]

The Schiller worked fine for me for about ten years. That's it in my picture here. I still have it as my backup.

~snip for quote's sake~

Huge thanks, Gary! Do you have any recordings of you playing it? I tried to find stuff on YouTube, but the algorithm is so terrible these days that it's impossible to find anything that doesn't already have a ton of views.

I'm feeling like for my situation, this could actually be a really good option. I play a decent amount of small bore and basically no large bore for performances lately, but I also do a lot of directing/teaching, so my playing opportunities are so limited that I don't think I really need to spend a whole lot on something crazy.
How do you personally think the Schiller compares to other horns (and what would you compare it to)? How much did you spend to pull the lead pipe?

Just curious overall, because a useable $700 bass trombone (that isn't purchase used) is quite impressive. Although on the other hand, since I'm not pressed to have one anytime soon, maybe I could wait a bit and see if I find something more reputable on the used market. We'll see!

[ghmerrill]

Do you have any recordings of you playing it? I tried to find stuff on YouTube, but the algorithm is so terrible these days that it's impossible to find anything that doesn't already have a ton of views.

I don't have any recordings, but Aiden Ritchie has at least one (possibly a couple) on YouTube of what is the generic pseudo-7B Chinese clone -- which is what the Schiller is. Look through his videos and you'll see. Here's one:

[ghmerrill]

How do you personally think the Schiller compares to other horns (and what would you compare it to)? How much did you spend to pull the lead pipe?

I don't have enough experience with different bass trombones to make much of a comparison -- Aiden can probably give you some more insight -- but here's my take on what I've had ...

1. (Decades ago ...) Holton TR181. Great sound. You can blow a wall down with it. TERRIBLE ergonomics. Heavy (10.5" bell doesn't help there. Painful experience -- but that was decades ago before things like decent hand supports. Traded it in on a blingy Yamaha silver/gold flute for my daughter.
2. The Schiller. Worked really well for me in concert band and big band until I finally got to be better than the horn. But I won't hesitate to use it again if for some reason the Getzen has to visit the shop.
3. My current Getzen 1052FD. Noticeably better than the Schiller (duh!). Primary difference in "feel" and ease of play is in the double valve stuff. 2nd valve mechanism is better than the Schiller (but that can be easily addressed at relatively little expense). In terms of the slide, well ... I guess this is somewhat sacrilegious, but ... the slide on the Schiller seems in no way worse to me than the slide on the Getzen -- they're both great. If you look closely at the materials (tubing) on the hand slide and the tuning slides, you'll see the usual "less than perfect" appearance of the low end Chinese instruments (a little wave in the reflection, etc.). But no practical difference in use.

In terms of the lead pipe, I went to my usual local guy (who's been in the business for decades). Here's the full story on this ... When I first got the horn from Laabs there was a problem with the receiver -- it was slightly out of round. I called Laabs about it immediately and Troy offered to send me out a slide replacement ("Don't bother returning the one you have") at no expense. I declined at that point because I knew I wanted to pull the lead pipe anyway and told him I'd give that a try. If it worked, I'd keep the slide (which was otherwise great). He said that was fine, but let him know if I wanted a new one.

Went to the shop, my tech eyed it suspiciously, said he didn't have exactly the right mandrel for the operation but was willing to try. (Nothing would be lost if the slide was destroyed since I knew I could get another as a replacement.) So it became a joint operation and a bit of an epic struggle. But the slide was new, and so no corrosion in it to make things difficult. With some effort and care, the lead pipe came out. He cleaned out the solder, and I was good to go. As I recall he charged me $20.

I got a press fit red brass (drawn) MV50 pipe from Brass Ark/Brad Close, and it worked well. Later I tried the George Roberts from M/K Bending (not so good), and then a nickel MK50 from them. For the jazz band, the nickel MK 50 worked best in terms of sound and response in the double valve range. For the Schiller I ended up shortening the pipes by about 3/8" to get a more open blow. On my Getzen, after experimentation with the Getzen #2 pipe that came with it and my collection of Brad Close and M/K pipes, I have settled on the brass Getzen #3 as "the one" -- it just seems magical for me. Different strokes for different horns. Lead pipe selection is a black art.

[walldaja]

You may want to consider Dillon's stencil horns.

[Tooloud]

The older Yamahas are great. You do not even have to change anything, as long as you are not used to something completely different so you get confused.
We' ve been doing okay with thumb rollers on dependent valves for decades, before inliners came into fashion - but not für me: Nothing beats the sound of an dependent bass...

[ghmerrill]

You may want to consider Dillon's stencil horns.

I'd looked at those (online) when I was looking for the step up from the Schiller. I thought about driving up to Dillon and trying them, but it's a real trek from here (Raleigh area), and at about that point I found the Getzen I got from BrassArk (about 3 times as expensive, but it's a Getzen). So I never managed to work that trek into some trip my wife and I might otherwise be making. And of course they're a bit more than twice as much as the Schiller (the "Dillon Bass" -- the "Commercial Bass" is even more) that's being considered. But that could very well be worth it if you have the money.

I think it's probably a more "versatile" horn. The Schiller 7B clone is good for casual/jazz/band pop stuff. If I were interested in serious band or orchestra, I'm thinking the Dillon might be more of a contender.

[wayne88ny]

The Getzen is a very good choice. The Dillon horns are most most likely made in China, and, like the Shiller, will not 'hold their value. Just so you know, Dillon will ship any of their trombones for free. The give you a 7 day tryout period and if you decide to return it, you'd be charge their shipping cost. Given your original post, I thought a single valve bass trombone would be adequate for your needs (and within your budget). Dillon also has that Reynolds for $1595. Elmer Janes,for many years the bass trombone player in the Detroit Symphony, played a single valve Reynolds most of the time, resorting to the Double valve Reynolds only when h needed to. Te Conn 711H (especially the Elkhart) is an excellent bass trombone. I played a single valve Yamaha and a Conn 70H (a wonderful trombone) for a number of years, but for non orchestral playing I always felt under equipped, so I bought a double trigger bass trombone.

[Chazzer69]

I have a single valve Yamaha YBL-321 I'm happy to move along and well within your budget.

[dukesboneman]

I had a wonderful older Yamaha 321 Single trigger bass. Easy to play , nice sound and cut nice in a Big Band setting.
LOved it.
But I found that I was needing the 2nd valve more and more.

[davdud101]

@ghmerrill thanks for the detailed writeup!! Loads of great info in there. Given my hyper-casualist status as a bass/large bore player, I truly feel like I'm leaning toward a Schiller... Or a better but equally-inexpensive budget-friendly and lightweight single valve. I'll wait it out a couple months and see what I happen upon.

That eBay Reynolds isn't looking too bad.

[GabrielRice]

If a single valve will do it for you, keep an eye out for a Yamaha YBL 321 or 322. They're great and can often be found in excellent playing condition for $500-600.

[davdud101]

I have a single valve Yamaha YBL-321 I'm happy to move along and well within your budget.

I'll shoot you a PM. Now that I see a bit of what's out there I have sort of reconsidered how much I'd like to spend

[ghmerrill]

Or a better but equally-inexpensive budget-friendly and lightweight single valve.

If you can live without the reliable low B-natural, and get a reliable low C, a single valve is viable.