Besson Sovereign Bass

[Drombone]

A question for Besson cognoscenti: I play in a concert band with a very good, ex British Army Bass trombonist, who has a Besson Sovereign, double trigger bass.

But the 2nd valve is operated by the index finger, pressing down, as opposed to the middle finger pulling up. It also has a built in bullet brace style thumb support. This is how it came out of the factory, it's not after-market, or a prototype as far as he knows.

I'm going to question him more on his horn, which I understand him to have had since the 80's at least.

A quick search didn't find the model number.

Is this a rare beast?

[hornbuilder]

I owned the single valve version of that horn, in a previous life. Fun horns. I've only ever seen one double valve example. But keep in mind I grew up in Australia. I don't doubt there were more of them in England, where they were made. I also own a .500 tenor that was offered in the same line. Great little horn, quite King 3B-ish.

[hornbuilder]

Doing a Google search brings up images of the Boosey and Hawkers Sovereign 940 bass trombone

[hornbuilder]

Pics

[Pezza]

I've played a few of the older Boosey Soverign versions. Not bad, but not brilliant either.
I've also played a few of the old Imperial 555 bass bones and quite liked them. Single trigger, 9" bell, 0.555 bore.

[brassmedic]

I think I got arthritis just from looking at that picture.

[PhilE]

I have a double valve B&H Sovereign bass, looks exactly the same as pictured by Matthew including the red plastic end on the thumb rest.

Mine is silver plated and came with the older blue case which was probably the B&H case rather than the Besson version.

They are not light to hold.

Good solid warm sound.

[Vegasbound]

I have one, easy to play but not light

[MrHCinDE]

I‘ve seen a few of the Besson Sovereign bass trombones with independent Hagmann valves, the BE943 I think. I borrowed one off a section mate a few times and don‘t think that horn had the weird trigger position like the one in this thread.

I haven‘t seen any of the standard rotors versions with the strange trigger in the wild. Probably because a lot of bands I played in bought brand new sets of instruments (thanks National Lottery!!!) in the mid to late 90s and most I knew went for Bach, Yamaha or Courtois bass trombones, if Besson, for the Hagmann version.

How easy would it be for a tech to modify the 2nd trigger to a more conventional setup?

[blast]

I had one of the first ones. Went to the factory and chose it with DW who was my teacher. It was a truly dreadful instrument that nearly ended my career before it had started !

[JohnL]

I had one of the first ones. Went to the factory and chose it with DW who was my teacher. It was a truly dreadful instrument that nearly ended my career before it had started !

Dreadful ergonomics? Dreadful playing? Or just plain dreadful?

and did you realize just how dreadful it was when you bought it?

I think I got arthritis just from looking at that picture.

Obviously, it's proof that extraterrestrials are living among us (and that one of the was working for Besson at some point). There is no way that was designed to be operated by a human hand.

[Kevbach33]

There's just so much "yikes" looking at that trigger arrangement...

For reference, here's my 943GS setup, an instrument made in the 90s and may have succeeded this model in question:

20140329_220258.jpg

20140329_220223.jpg

Totally normal bass trombone trigger setup. The 2nd valve is much faster than the F valve, though.

[DougHulme]

The later/Last version that MrHCinDE mentions was a completely different kettle of fish. It had Hagman valves and looked exactly like the more recent Courtois horns, I have oftened wondered if they shared the same heritage as they both had their origins in the same assembly plant in Germany, rather than London. In my own mind (which is a magical place) Its the only really decent Bass trombone Besson ever made. Blast is right those earlier ones were truly awful. Pity that after it appeared that they had finally learned how to make a decent horn they promptly ceased manufacturing!... Doug

[MrHCinDE]

It‘s a shame that Besson didn‘t keep the newer model but it‘s a tough market and you could understand why the didn‘t. It would make sense what is being suggested that the newer Besson one shares some heritage with the Courtois equivalent and has less in common with the old model at the start of this thread.

[blast]

That original Sovereign bass should have been wonderful as it was a project of Denis Wick and Ray Premru. B&H wrecked it, as they did most things around that time. The slide crook was undersized as they didn't want to be bothered making a new hydraulic former The valves were cheap and undersized, bought from Germany and the second valve was made of euphonium tube ! Amazing it blew at all !!!

[Tbarh]

That original Sovereign bass should have been wonderful as it was a project of Denis Wick and Ray Premru. B&H wrecked it, as they did most things around that time. The slide crook was undersized as they didn't want to be bothered making a new hydraulic former The valves were cheap and undersized, bought from Germany and the second valve was made of euphonium tube ! Amazing it blew at all !!!

Could be a candidate for a rebuild then..?

[slipperyslide]

I picked up one of these just recently for cheap, and spent about the same amount on repairs - it had a rough life in a brass band hall for many years by the looks of it. Luckily the slide was/is still in good condition and I decided to take the punt. A silver "SOV-562" bass.

It is indeed an ergonomic nightmare - I really don’t know how you would hold the weight and be able to operate that second trigger without developing carpal tunnel and shoulder issues! What is making it slightly better is a calderpips grip, but for me it has to sit back right up against the brace closest to the bell in order for my index finger to somewhat comfortably press the second trigger, much further back than you’d be able to grip without it. At some point I’ll discuss switching the lever around with my repair tech.

Playing-wise, it’s actually quite comfortable. With an unlabelled 1.5G clone I’ve got good range and response. My Schilke 51 suits too, I just can’t fill it like I used to! Triggers are good, smooth, but thirsty.

Probably the biggest issue is tuning - the main tuning slide needs a tiny bit more length (it’s balancing right at full extension), and the tuning of slide positions is a fraction further than normal - basically I don’t have a 7th position. Makes sense with blast’s comment about the slide being undersized I suppose?

sov-bass 1.png

sov-bass 2.png

Not quite as far back as I need here:

sov-bass 3.png

sov-bass 4.png

[brassmedic]

I'm reasonably sure it wasn't designed to wrap your index finger around the sharp edge of the paddle like that.

[slipperyslide]

I'm reasonably sure it wasn't designed to wrap your index finger around the sharp edge of the paddle like that.

Yep absolutely. Setting the grip back further than that photo let me actually shift the balance enough to press with pad of my finger. No idea how you’d do it otherwise.

[brassmedic]

I'm reasonably sure it wasn't designed to wrap your index finger around the sharp edge of the paddle like that.

Yep absolutely. Setting the grip back further than that photo let me actually shift the balance enough to press with pad of my finger. No idea how you’d do it otherwise.

Yeah, that has to be what was intended. Probably still pretty awkward to hold, I imagine.