George Roberts Horn Models used on his Various Recording

[TheConnArtist70H]

I do apologise if this topic has been touched on in the past.

I'm trying to put together some sort of Horn list that George used on some of his many Albums he recorded on and keen to know if anyone would be willing to contribute on the start of my list.

Big Fat Brass ( 1957 ) - Conn 70H
Meet Mr Roberts ( 1959 ) - Conn 70H
The Joy of Living ( 1959 ) - Conn 70H
Ben Hur Original Soundtrack ( 1959 ) - ??
Bottom's Up ( 1960 ) - Conn 70H
Nelson Riddle Nice & Easy ( 1960 ) - Conn 70H
All my friends are Trombone Players ( 1964 ) ??
Lets Play Trombone ( 1966 ) - Olds S22 TIS with J Bend / F Tuning braces x 3
Let George Do it ( 1968 ) - Olds S22 TIS with J Bend / F Tuning braces x 3
Hawaii Five-0 ( 1968 ) - ??
Practice makes Perfect ( 1969 ) - ??
Kojak ( 1973 - 1978 ) - ?? Poss P22
Jaws ( 1975 ) - Olds P22 No main Tuning slide bracing ( An Educated Guess ) Can anyone ask Dick Nash ?
Rocky ( 1976 ) - Olds P22 No main Tuning Slide bracing



Thanks,

[blast]

He sounded the same whatever he played....that's the important take away.

[whyking]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

[aoemusic]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

Players back in the day would play super small equipment to get bigger sounds (sounds crazy I know but it WORKED). My high school teacher played with a trumpet mouthpiece adapter and he was able to play pedal E flats like nobody's business! The older generation has this stuff figured out!

[Kevbach33]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

It was said that George practiced the false tones (between pedals and 2nd partial) A LOT. With enough practice, the low B can pop in F 3rd position. Ditto low C in F 2nd. This is easier to do on smaller equipment.

I've practiced playing phrases using the technique above, and although I haven't done so in performance, it can work, especially in passing.

Modern pieces and arrangements that stay in the valve register need a second valve, but much of the older music is playable on just one. You'll note that, often times, there's space written to pull the F tubing to E before the low B comes (and space to push back as well).

Also, the 70H, 71H and 72H, and TIS 60H models are definitely bass trombones with their bore and bell profiles.

[ghmerrill]

... the low B can pop in F 3rd position. Ditto low C in F 2nd.

Hey, that really works! Not as easy as on an Eb tuba ( ), but it works (on my 1052) although it will require some real practice to get it to work uniformly and with decent tone. Of course, since I have two valves, I don't really need to do it. But it's still pretty cool.

[Posaunus]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

George Roberts ("Mr. Bass Trombone") not a real bass trombone player?
That's a bit of sacrilege to us old-timers.
Is this now a common view in Los Angeles (where George once was worshiped)?

Or is this akin to alleging you can't write a real essay without a word processor?

[whyking]

I dunno mate, if he’s false toning all the low notes, that doesn’t seem real to me. It’s even in the name, “false tone”, innit? Also I don’t think most trombone players wrote essays, but maybe the older generation was more academically inclined than I thought.

[JohnL]

George Roberts ("Mr. Bass Trombone") not a real bass trombone player?
That's a bit of sacrilege to us old-timers.
Is this now a common view in Los Angeles (where George once was worshiped)?

I would suggest reading through whyking's previous posts. All will become clear.

[Posaunus]

I would suggest reading through whyking's previous posts. All will become clear.

Perhaps I should have not been so gullible as to fall victim to Mr. Toftgaard's trolling.
It's not what I suspect from TromboneChat members.

I'll be more circumspect next time I encounter one of his posts.

[dwcarder]

TheConnArtist70H, You might be interested in reading this:
https://davidkrosschell.com/wp-content/ ... tation.pdf

Meet Mr. Roberts:
George Roberts’ Influence on the Modern Bass Trombonist

page 102+ plus, maybe check out the references

[Posaunus]

TheConnArtist70H, You might be interested in reading this:
https://davidkrosschell.com/wp-content/ ... tation.pdf

Meet Mr. Roberts:
George Roberts’ Influence on the Modern Bass Trombonist

page 102+ plus, maybe check out the references

Thanks Dale! Very impressive work from Dr Krosschell.

I guess George did O.K., even if he (mostly) played a mere single-valve bass trombone.

[TheConnArtist70H]

dwcarder - Thank you for providing this link very much appreciated, I will read this tomorrow and hopefully fill in a few of the missing pieces.

I'm just a little surprised by some of the comments but let's leave the Trolls to please themselves as we all know the truth.

aoemusic - "Players back in the day would play super small equipment to get bigger sounds" (sounds crazy I know but it WORKED). My high school teacher played with a trumpet mouthpiece adapter and he was able to play pedal E flats like nobody's business! The older generation has this stuff figured out!

The Bass Trombone equipment used back in the 50s and 60's was certainly not super small at min 0.562" single bore. Mr.Roberts and all the other Pro players back then would have been more than capable of knocking down walls with these horns when required........

[chromebone]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

Players back in the day would play super small equipment to get bigger sounds (sounds crazy I know but it WORKED). My high school teacher played with a trumpet mouthpiece adapter and he was able to play pedal E flats like nobody's business! The older generation has this stuff figured out!

Most orchestral players back then were playing .562 horns, yeah, maybe the mouthpiece wasn’t quite as big and the leadpipe not quite as open, but it’s not like they were playing 88hs with a 5G.

GR played a single valve .562 horn with a 1 1/2 G mouthpiece, pretty much what Ed Kleinhammer was playing right at the same time.
Commercial bass trombone didn’t come into its own until guys like Bart Vaecelona and Alan Raph, who were playing small tenors on 3rd or 4th parts started to explore larger equipment, basically the King Symphony, which was just a really large Germanic tenor; GR and Paul Faulise took it to the next level by adopting .562 horns and eventually players like Raph followed. All throughout the big band era, the low parts were played on small tenors up until the mid-late 50’s.

If it seems like Roberts and others of that era were playing “small” equipment, it’s because that’s what their job required. They were mostly working in recording studios: their job was to deliver a compact, resonant sound with a quick response that was in the pocket and in time for commercial recordings and film, not blasting down the walls of a 2000 seat concert hall playing Buckner.

[CBlair]

This string brings up something I was recently thinking about. There is a Stan Kenton recording of Cuban Mumble (ca. 1958) which begins with several repeats of a two-bar latin bass trombone line, followed by mumbling from the band. Very fun.

As I hear it, the bass line alternates between F and A and then has a C-Eb-E lead-in back to the F-A riff.
In light of the likelihood of this being a single trigger bass, I wondered if it was played with an E-pull, but that presents its own awkward slide work. I assume it was played straight with the trigger valve in F, as the player then would have been accustomed to doing, and a Conn 70H has that longer slide that works.

Still, that low C is way out there. And it occurred to me that I don't recall seeing a video of George Roberts where he appeared to be playing a triggered low C. Many of his ballads are played above the trigger range, but for occasional octave grace notes and a triggered or pedal stinger.

[WGWTR180]

The 70H is a .562 bore instrument. Small? so much misinformation here. And if whyking is being serious and not sarcastic put him on Fueax News.

[dbwhitaker]

This string brings up something I was recently thinking about. There is a Stan Kenton recording of Cuban Mumble (ca. 1958) which begins with several repeats of a two-bar latin bass trombone line, followed by mumbling from the band. Very fun.
...
Still, that low C is way out there. And it occurred to me that I don't recall seeing a video of George Roberts where he appeared to be playing a triggered low C. Many of his ballads are played above the trigger range, but for occasional octave grace notes and a triggered or pedal stinger.

At the risk of taking this thread further off topic...this source indicates that Kenny Shroyer played bass trombone on Cuban Mumble.
https://www.discogs.com/release/8057178 ... NNqgZtFzHt

[Burgerbob]

The 70H is a .562 bore instrument. Small? so much misinformation here. And if whyking is being serious and not sarcastic put him on Fueax News.

I mean... that's not really debatable. 70H is much smaller than almost any other modern bass in the J bend and bell stem. It makes a big difference. Doesn't mean it's bad, just small!

[WGWTR180]

My point is not about dimensions. Yes it's smaller in those areas. That's not the misinformation I'm speaking about.

[imsevimse]

So I just googled Conn 70H. I don't know if I would call George a reall bass trombone player if he only used one trigger. How would he hit any of the low notes!?

It was said that George practiced the false tones (between pedals and 2nd partial) A LOT. With enough practice, the low B can pop in F 3rd position. Ditto low C in F 2nd. This is easier to do on smaller equipment.

I've practiced playing phrases using the technique above, and although I haven't done so in performance, it can work, especially in passing.

Modern pieces and arrangements that stay in the valve register need a second valve, but much of the older music is playable on just one. You'll note that, often times, there's space written to pull the F tubing to E before the low B comes (and space to push back as well).

Also, the 70H, 71H and 72H, and TIS 60H models are definitely bass trombones with their bore and bell profiles.

I use false tones a lot or "factitious notes" or "privileged notes" or "falset stimme" (or "fejk toner" as we call them in Swedish). There are some demos of these notes on this forum. It is true they are easier on some horns than others. For me they are easy on a Conn 70H, 71H 72H,. Olds P-21, Bach 50, 45, Holton TR-183, 169, Yamaha 321, 322 etc. They respond very well on all old single valves. When it comes to doubles it can vary. For some reason they are harder on Axial-valves for me so I would not use them on a horn like that. They works great on a Kanstul dep. 1662 or Conn 73H or King 6B if you for some reason need those. The old guys knew the false tones. It was a tool in their box and you could not tell the difference from other notes when they played them. I know. I've heard and seen them played like that in closeup. Could be played at any volume, any articulation and also believe it or not while doing circular breathing. I know it might seem unbelievable when you start as unexperienced and especially as the skills seem to be forgotten by most (even progessiobals) but with a strong emboushure and with a lot of practice they get easier. When you done all the work then they become usable. But today you just get a double valve bass and don't bother.

/Tom