Leadpipe Recommendation for Olds Opera

[mccuskermusic]

Hi TC,

I've owned an Olds Opera for a while that had its original leadpipe pulled and replaced with a Rath pressfit leadpipe by the previous owner. I like the horn, however it plays flat with the tuning slide pushed all the in with every mouthpiece I own. I am wondering if there is a better leadpipe choice for this horn that might help bring it more in tune with a standard taper large shank mouthpiece. Please let me know if you have any recommendations for what I might look for.

Thanks!

[Posaunus]

Consequences of trying to mess with the original design concept?

I decided to leave intact the (apparently undersized) factory lead pipe and buy an Olds Shank from Doug Elliott that would allow me to use my other DE mouthpiece components. Works like a charm! Makes an OK trombone a real winner.

[JohnL]

How deep does a standard Bach mouthpiece insert into the leadpipe?

[Matt K]

I’d make sure it isn’t leaking too. Water key, slide, and rotor being loose can affect pitch.

[mccuskermusic]

How deep does a standard Bach mouthpiece insert into the leadpipe?

My mouthpieces fit slightly farther into the leadpipe on the Opera than compared to my Bach 42, which sits about ~1 inch into the leadpipe.

I’d make sure it isn’t leaking too. Water key, slide, and rotor being loose can affect pitch.

Everything on the horn works fine, no leaks, etc. It's a straight horn so no rotor.

[SlideCrook]

I have 6 Olds Trombones and they all play flat (A-435) except for the TV-counterweight era Ambassador. A period Olds mouthpiece sometimes helps in the early proprietary shank issue, but with a replaced lead pipe, you are beyond that fix. If the rest of the horn is in good condition with no leaks, I would take it to have a half inch cut off each tuning slide leg and reassess. The purists will moan, but you want to be able to play it with others.

Also when tuning first position - if you tune against the bumpers, you will be flat every time you get to First position in music, unless you are clapping the slide into your teeth each time.

[Doldom]

I once had Opera too and even though it was unmodified, it played on the flat side. With pushing the tuning slide all the way in and with some warming up, then it barely played in tune. The original Olds 15 or 20 mouthpiece, or DE olds shank doesn't help much. I think maybe it is associated with hot weather of California where the Olds factory was located? Idk.
Cutting the tuning slide a little bit will help.

[mccuskermusic]

Thank you for the responses. That's a good suggestion I had not considered. I am definitely open to cutting the tuning slide legs if it will help make this horn more playable.

Thanks!

[MrBill]

I have 2 Olds Operas (one with modified leadpipe, one with original) and an Olds O25 with original leadpipe, and have similar experiences regardless of mouthpiece choice.

I do have a couple of Holtons and a Conn which play in tune with the tuning slide approx 3/4 to 1 inch extended, so I don't think the lower pitch on the Olds horns is just me.

My Olds horns have had the tuning slides shortened, which makes them playable with others, and they are fun instruments and actually my first choice most of the time.

[MrHCinDE]

I once had Opera too and even though it was unmodified, it played on the flat side. With pushing the tuning slide all the way in and with some warming up, then it barely played in tune. The original Olds 15 or 20 mouthpiece, or DE olds shank doesn't help much. I think maybe it is associated with hot weather of California where the Olds factory was located? Idk.
Cutting the tuning slide a little bit will help.

I think I could be the present owner of that horn, I find it to be more than ok at up to 442Hz with the DE D cup and D8 olds shank it was kindly delivered with. With the DE F+ cup and G8 olds shank 442Hz is possible fully pushed in on the tuning slide but on the upper end for some partials, 440Hz no problem. It’s a really strange thing but with the D cup the relatively large and heavy horn has a superb upper register.

The depth of the cup seems to make more of a difference to tuning than anything else. Trying to force that horn to play with a really deep cup wouldn’t end well for me.

[Doldom]

Glad you still have the horn.!! Yes, the horn lights up with more shallow mouthpieces and tuning is a little better than deeper mouthpieces. My theory is for instrument that have tighter leadpipe and tighter bell throat, despite it being large bore, it may be better to use shallow mouthpieces. It may be the reason why the great Bill Pearce was fabulous using Bach 12(no C) small shank mouthpiece with adapter.

[Doug Elliott]

I am currently borrowing an Opera but haven’t tried it yet. I’ll keep all of that info in mind and see if there’s some improvement I can make.

[JohnL]

I am currently borrowing an Opera but haven’t tried it yet. I’ll keep all of that info in mind and see if there’s some improvement I can make.

I suppose it would be too much to hope for that it's got the original Olds 15 mouthpiece with it?

[Doldom]

The original Olds 15 or 20 mouthpiece, or DE olds shank doesn't help much.

There might be misunderstanding so I'm write it again.
DE olds large shank(which inserts 3~4mm more) definetely improves how the (unmodified) Opera plays.!! But it does not give enough higher pitch. Still with Olds shank, the Opera plays on low side or barely in tune in first position. that was what I meant.

[MrHCinDE]

Glad you still have the horn.!! Yes, the horn lights up with more shallow mouthpieces and tuning is a little better than deeper mouthpieces. My theory is for instrument that have tighter leadpipe and tighter bell throat, despite it being large bore, it may be better to use shallow mouthpieces. It may be the reason why the great Bill Pearce was fabulous using Bach 12(no C) small shank mouthpiece with adapter.

Thanks!

I tend to feel that I get the best out of it when I approach it more like playing a .508” horn than large tenor. It’s a fun instrument and the pedals can really pop too. It’s perfect for a 7-piece polka band where I often drop an octave on the bass solos in a march and really peel paint but also play way up above the tenor clef staff a lot of the time. Shallower cup works for me all the way!

[heldenbone]

Sort of related... I just "modernized" an Olds bass from the 1960's. It has the slightly undersized receiver and is also slide tuned. After adding an in-line valve block and bumper springs (heavy slide), I had to cut about 5" out to bring it up to pitch. That left me with about 1" of the slide mechanism pulled in a warm room with a medium size mouthpiece. They really were made to play with the smaller shank and a smaller mouthpiece.

[Posaunus]

I must be an oddball / outlier. I have an Olds O-25 (0.554" bore, single rotor, 8.5" red brass bell) with an unmodified Olds "undersized" leadpipe. Thanks to Doug Elliott, I have a DE G8(Olds) Shank and G cup (not very shallow) - and I seem to be able to play in tune (A=440 Hz) with the tuning slide out about 1/8" (3 mm). [I'd have a hard time at A=442 Hz.] Used it tonight playing 4th trombone in a big band, and was pleased with the low range - down to and including in-tune low C! [It also works fine with an even deeper H Cup / H8(Olds) Shank.] I love this trombone!

Is it just me, or is my trombone different than the typical O-23 Opera model? ¤

[MrHCinDE]

I must be an oddball / outlier.

If you are, you’re not the only one.

Whilst I prefer my Olds O-23 with the shallower cup (around here we usually tune to 442Hz), it’s totally fine with my DE F+ cup and G8olds shank at 440Hz.

I should add that up to a couple of years ago this would have been more of an issue for me, I was usually having all tuning slides fully in on all instruments and only just making it to 442Hz. I changed a couple of things in my embouchure and now things are much more comfortable, though I still quite like a standard length Edwards slide rather than Bach on my Bach bell section as it allows more space for extreme weather/temperature/tuning (woodwinds creeping upwards…) variations.

I am thinking about having a little bit taken off the Olds tuning slide so I can play it more comfortably with the deeper cup at 442 but for now I’m happy with it as a supercharged undercover quasi-3B horn with the shallow cup.

[Driswood]

Maybe contact Brad Close at Brass Ark for information. He makes an assortment of lead pipes, all available as press fit.
I use his Burkle pipe in my 6H. It’s a winner.
He may be able to help you in your quest.